Does a conspiracy theory necessarily have to florish amonst those opposing to every official explanation of the society, or can it also be the other way around?
Lately i have participated in a discussion on the BBC climate prediction board, to find out if there is any compelling evidence of global warming actually being connected with CO2. Or is it just a convenient way for wealthy western governments to control the industrialzation of the poor 3rd world countries. (As is the result of the Kyoto treaty).
After a couple of months my conclusion is, that no one in that forum (of religous believers of CO2 / Greenhouse effect) could come up with a viable mechanism, that could explain the coherence of CO2 in the atmosphere with global warming.
Of course the classic explanations came up, but every one of those can be challenged or proven wrong.
Is the Greenhouse effect a conspiracy theory turned upside down? Or do any of you esteemed gentlemen of this forum, have the answer?
All the best from
Lars Clausen
Lately i have participated in a discussion on the BBC climate prediction board, to find out if there is any compelling evidence of global warming actually being connected with CO2. Or is it just a convenient way for wealthy western governments to control the industrialzation of the poor 3rd world countries. (As is the result of the Kyoto treaty).
After a couple of months my conclusion is, that no one in that forum (of religous believers of CO2 / Greenhouse effect) could come up with a viable mechanism, that could explain the coherence of CO2 in the atmosphere with global warming.
Of course the classic explanations came up, but every one of those can be challenged or proven wrong.
Is the Greenhouse effect a conspiracy theory turned upside down? Or do any of you esteemed gentlemen of this forum, have the answer?
All the best from
Lars Clausen
As an interesting aside about the process of global warming. I once read an internet article that speculated that there was a measurable degree of warming - but that it had a totally different cause to CO2.
It said that as we move towards alignment with the plane of the galaxy we were encountering an increasing concentration of cosmic radiation/particles which are energising the atoms of the solar system and causing the sun to heat up slightly, rather like a vast particle accelerator. We are approaching such an alignment. It was also tied to the increasing drift of the magnetic poles, and a increase in terrestrial seismic activity.
One of those wild ideas you come across when roaming the web.
Shoog
It said that as we move towards alignment with the plane of the galaxy we were encountering an increasing concentration of cosmic radiation/particles which are energising the atoms of the solar system and causing the sun to heat up slightly, rather like a vast particle accelerator. We are approaching such an alignment. It was also tied to the increasing drift of the magnetic poles, and a increase in terrestrial seismic activity.
One of those wild ideas you come across when roaming the web.
Shoog
And one of those wild ideas that can be demolished with about 5 minutes of work- three minutes finding the actual flux of those particles, then two minutes calculating their thermal energy, plugging in the Earth's thermal mass, then gaping at how tiny the temperature effect is.
If this sort of thing is beyond your capabilities (and language note: I'm using "you" as a general denotation, not directed specifically at Shoog!), you ought to be spending more time with Feynman and less with woo-woo web sites.
The most interesting thing about conspiracies and their theories, is to watch what happens 'when one goes down', in terms of the actual action..'taking place'. Fly on the wall, etc. See the the millions, if not billions of dollars and 10's of thousands employed...and those connected to that money, research, and power..come crashing down. Or not.
Maybe they fight back, and discredit the people who come up with the 'thing' that destroys the (their) entire 'industry'.
Oh yes, as for large conspiracy theories that take hundreds of key peope to hold it together in silence and solidarity, millions of dolalrs spent, people killed and discredited, well.. on one side of the arguement, one simple example as of recent is: The tobacco companies. See the film "Who Killed the electric car?" Two simple examples. Also, se "An Inconvenient Truth".
There is literally one of thes situations taking place at this very moment, just blew in, on Friday, I believe. Follow this one, and see what happens, how drawn out it becomes, how freaking long it takes for the whole thing to evolve..into..what? Remember, BILLIONS of dollars and 10's of thousands of jobs and money, power, corporations, and future cash cows are at stake here. All opposed by a small group, who's solution costs .. virtually ... NOTHING. Watch the lies, the curses, the attacks, the subterfuge from large companies, etc.
Don't kid yourself.
Watch one of these, at point blank range-as it happens, right from the beginning:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=a042812e-492c-4f07-8245-8a598ab5d1bf&k=63970
a discovery that has stunned even those behind it, scientists at a Toronto hospital say they have proof the body's nervous system helps trigger diabetes, opening the door to a potential near-cure of the disease that affects millions of Canadians.
Diabetic mice became healthy virtually overnight after researchers injected a substance to counteract the effect of malfunctioning pain neurons in the pancreas.
"I couldn't believe it," said Dr. Michael Salter, a pain expert at the Hospital for Sick Children and one of the scientists. "Mice with diabetes suddenly didn't have diabetes any more."
The researchers caution they have yet to confirm their findings in people, but say they expect results from human studies within a year or so. Any treatment that may emerge to help at least some patients would likely be years away from hitting the market.
But the excitement of the team from Sick Kids, whose work is being published today in the journal Cell, is almost palpable.
"I've never seen anything like it," said Dr. Hans Michael Dosch, an immunologist at the hospital and a leader of the studies. "In my career, this is unique."
Their conclusions upset conventional wisdom that Type 1 diabetes, the most serious form of the illness that typically first appears in childhood, was solely caused by auto-immune responses -- the body's immune system turning on itself.
They also conclude that there are far more similarities than previously thought between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes, and that nerves likely play a role in other chronic inflammatory conditions, such as asthma and Crohn's disease.
The "paradigm-changing" study opens "a novel, exciting door to address one of the diseases with large societal impact," said Dr. Christian Stohler, a leading U.S. pain specialist and dean of dentistry at the University of Maryland, who has reviewed the work.
"The treatment and diagnosis of neuropathic diseases is poised to take a dramatic leap forward because of the impressive research."
About two million Canadians suffer from diabetes, 10% of them with Type 1, contributing to 41,000 deaths a year.
Insulin replacement therapy is the only treatment of Type 1, and cannot prevent many of the side effects, from heart attacks to kidney failure.
In Type 1 diabetes, the pancreas does not produce enough insulin to shift glucose into the cells that need it. In Type 2 diabetes, the insulin that is produced is not used effectively -- something called insulin resistance -- also resulting in poor absorption of glucose.
The problems stem partly from inflammation -- and eventual death -- of insulin-producing islet cells in the pancreas.
Dr. Dosch had concluded in a 1999 paper that there were surprising similarities between diabetes and multiple sclerosis, a central nervous system disease. His interest was also piqued by the presence around the insulin-producing islets of an "enormous" number of nerves, pain neurons primarily used to signal the brain that tissue has been damaged.
Suspecting a link between the nerves and diabetes, he and Dr. Salter used an old experimental trick -- injecting capsaicin, the active ingredient in hot chili peppers, to kill the pancreatic sensory nerves in mice that had an equivalent of Type 1 diabetes.
As examples of insanity in a certain government, where ALL the details are known quantites and so strikingly absurd-but yet 100% verifiably true... that most people won't believe that type of consipracy (the sheer insanity factor of believability), when it is right in front of them.. I'm not allowed to show such things on this forum.
Oh yes, on Monday or soon thereafter, the US dollar may collapse. Watch for the possibility. Just thought you might like to know. Just a head's up.
Maybe they fight back, and discredit the people who come up with the 'thing' that destroys the (their) entire 'industry'.
Oh yes, as for large conspiracy theories that take hundreds of key peope to hold it together in silence and solidarity, millions of dolalrs spent, people killed and discredited, well.. on one side of the arguement, one simple example as of recent is: The tobacco companies. See the film "Who Killed the electric car?" Two simple examples. Also, se "An Inconvenient Truth".
There is literally one of thes situations taking place at this very moment, just blew in, on Friday, I believe. Follow this one, and see what happens, how drawn out it becomes, how freaking long it takes for the whole thing to evolve..into..what? Remember, BILLIONS of dollars and 10's of thousands of jobs and money, power, corporations, and future cash cows are at stake here. All opposed by a small group, who's solution costs .. virtually ... NOTHING. Watch the lies, the curses, the attacks, the subterfuge from large companies, etc.
Don't kid yourself.
Watch one of these, at point blank range-as it happens, right from the beginning:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=a042812e-492c-4f07-8245-8a598ab5d1bf&k=63970
a discovery that has stunned even those behind it, scientists at a Toronto hospital say they have proof the body's nervous system helps trigger diabetes, opening the door to a potential near-cure of the disease that affects millions of Canadians.
Diabetic mice became healthy virtually overnight after researchers injected a substance to counteract the effect of malfunctioning pain neurons in the pancreas.
"I couldn't believe it," said Dr. Michael Salter, a pain expert at the Hospital for Sick Children and one of the scientists. "Mice with diabetes suddenly didn't have diabetes any more."
The researchers caution they have yet to confirm their findings in people, but say they expect results from human studies within a year or so. Any treatment that may emerge to help at least some patients would likely be years away from hitting the market.
But the excitement of the team from Sick Kids, whose work is being published today in the journal Cell, is almost palpable.
"I've never seen anything like it," said Dr. Hans Michael Dosch, an immunologist at the hospital and a leader of the studies. "In my career, this is unique."
Their conclusions upset conventional wisdom that Type 1 diabetes, the most serious form of the illness that typically first appears in childhood, was solely caused by auto-immune responses -- the body's immune system turning on itself.
They also conclude that there are far more similarities than previously thought between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes, and that nerves likely play a role in other chronic inflammatory conditions, such as asthma and Crohn's disease.
The "paradigm-changing" study opens "a novel, exciting door to address one of the diseases with large societal impact," said Dr. Christian Stohler, a leading U.S. pain specialist and dean of dentistry at the University of Maryland, who has reviewed the work.
"The treatment and diagnosis of neuropathic diseases is poised to take a dramatic leap forward because of the impressive research."
About two million Canadians suffer from diabetes, 10% of them with Type 1, contributing to 41,000 deaths a year.
Insulin replacement therapy is the only treatment of Type 1, and cannot prevent many of the side effects, from heart attacks to kidney failure.
In Type 1 diabetes, the pancreas does not produce enough insulin to shift glucose into the cells that need it. In Type 2 diabetes, the insulin that is produced is not used effectively -- something called insulin resistance -- also resulting in poor absorption of glucose.
The problems stem partly from inflammation -- and eventual death -- of insulin-producing islet cells in the pancreas.
Dr. Dosch had concluded in a 1999 paper that there were surprising similarities between diabetes and multiple sclerosis, a central nervous system disease. His interest was also piqued by the presence around the insulin-producing islets of an "enormous" number of nerves, pain neurons primarily used to signal the brain that tissue has been damaged.
Suspecting a link between the nerves and diabetes, he and Dr. Salter used an old experimental trick -- injecting capsaicin, the active ingredient in hot chili peppers, to kill the pancreatic sensory nerves in mice that had an equivalent of Type 1 diabetes.
As examples of insanity in a certain government, where ALL the details are known quantites and so strikingly absurd-but yet 100% verifiably true... that most people won't believe that type of consipracy (the sheer insanity factor of believability), when it is right in front of them.. I'm not allowed to show such things on this forum.
Oh yes, on Monday or soon thereafter, the US dollar may collapse. Watch for the possibility. Just thought you might like to know. Just a head's up.
http://www.uic.com.au/nip24.htm
http://physicist.org/history/climate/co2.htm
Just a short search comes up with a mechanism in article one, and a history of the discovery (since the 1800's) of "ghreenhose gases.
I wouldn't be so dismissive about the cosmic rays theory SY.
The theory was put forward by Henrik Svenmark, a danish astrophysicist, working for the danish space researh institute.
Read more here: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/061023_rays_warming.html
I have seen a TV programme where he demonstrates the cosmic rays ability to form clouds in a moist saturated environment.
But SY if you have a good explanation of how CO2 could be linked to global warming, i would like to hear it and comment on it, if you don't mind. 🙂
The theory was put forward by Henrik Svenmark, a danish astrophysicist, working for the danish space researh institute.
Read more here: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/061023_rays_warming.html
I have seen a TV programme where he demonstrates the cosmic rays ability to form clouds in a moist saturated environment.
But SY if you have a good explanation of how CO2 could be linked to global warming, i would like to hear it and comment on it, if you don't mind. 🙂
Here's two that hit the realm of conspiracy secrecy involving unbelieveable complexities..and the 'believability factor' involved in the response--square on the head. Both well documented and known:
The Normandy invasion, and the German response.
The psychologial considerations for this component of reality to have existed and be honed to a fine level of perfection, have been round ever since the first two males conspired to control one given female, or vise versa. Part of the base nature of the human condition. But..far more evolved today, obviously.
The Normandy invasion, and the German response.
The psychologial considerations for this component of reality to have existed and be honed to a fine level of perfection, have been round ever since the first two males conspired to control one given female, or vise versa. Part of the base nature of the human condition. But..far more evolved today, obviously.
and don't we know? where were they able to hide truth I learned in school already 30 year ago? Just the unwillingness of the addicted to take the findings into account. Some of my "smoking" friends still deny that lung cancer can be caused by smoking tabacco products.
and the world expires on thursday, may 1st 2007.
The dollar collapses - why, because china and japan decide to switch to the euro?
There really is a conspiracy theory - the US is only allowed to have its dollar at the current level because those two governments, holding a vast amount of it, do not want to damage their own industry.
I fail to see where there is a conspiracy theory in the article you quote - just an example of how research works.
Audio-Kraut: Yes that is the classical theory. (Which i have always been a firm believer of, until i started digging into the subject a few months ago).
As it turns out, it has been demonstrated that 99.95% of the infrared energy that can be absorbed by CO2, is in fact absorbed within 10m above the earth surface. And so higher concentrations of CO2, might mean that (almost) 100% of the energy is absorbed within 5m, instead of 10m, and half the CO2 would mean 20m for total extinction of the CO2 absorption bands. (Presented by dr. Heinz Hug - Google it to see more)
Effectively the CO2 concentration levels can not affect the amount of energy being absorbed, since it is already 100%.
It is also claimed that higher CO2 concentration levels can widen the absorption bands. Yes bu we all know how resonant systems work, there is a limit to how far away you can go from their resosnace frequency, to make then resonate (and thus absorb energy).
On the other hand 4 times more energy is held out of the atmosphere by clouds, that will form more, in case of global warming, and thus stabilise the system, from going out of control.
As it turns out, it has been demonstrated that 99.95% of the infrared energy that can be absorbed by CO2, is in fact absorbed within 10m above the earth surface. And so higher concentrations of CO2, might mean that (almost) 100% of the energy is absorbed within 5m, instead of 10m, and half the CO2 would mean 20m for total extinction of the CO2 absorption bands. (Presented by dr. Heinz Hug - Google it to see more)
Effectively the CO2 concentration levels can not affect the amount of energy being absorbed, since it is already 100%.
It is also claimed that higher CO2 concentration levels can widen the absorption bands. Yes bu we all know how resonant systems work, there is a limit to how far away you can go from their resosnace frequency, to make then resonate (and thus absorb energy).
On the other hand 4 times more energy is held out of the atmosphere by clouds, that will form more, in case of global warming, and thus stabilise the system, from going out of control.
audio-kraut said:
Potentially a misunderstanding there. No conspiracy theory, but the opportunity to observe the results of a point of research that has the potential to damage billions of dollars of existing 'considerations' and the cash cow that exists around it.
Tens of billions of dollars of momentum and cash flow don't just roll up their carpet and go home -destitute, just because some tiny research outfit tells them to do so. Either they discredit it, take it over from the inside and discredit it, or they take it apart form the inside, slow it down, and inflate the cost of the cure. Make delivery...literally..take forever. (Always on the horizon-never delivered. Like hydrogen power, or the electric car-or gasoline efficency) Or, once again.. they roll up thier carpets and go home destitute. You pick the more likely scenario.
There may be variants of the sceanrios supplied, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Diabetes is on the rise, horrendously so. The sheer size of the global cash cow coming to life, is frightening. Humungous. Imagine...grabbing a 100% guaranteed (death and taxes in terms of viability here!!) income that is hugely on the rise. Imagine how they will fight for..just a lousy 10 more years of people dying. Imagine how much they will fight for that.
What will become of them, 10 years down the road, when they are even MORE gargantuan? Will they roll up their carpets and go home desitute? You tell me. (reader in general, not you, a-k)
This is the point at which such nightmare scenarios-begin- if they do. All I supplied is the opportunity to watch such a 'potential' from the beginning.
For example, something I don't speak of. One of maybe a dozen key people in the world who would be able to say this and have it be believed.. Runs, maintains, engineers, designs, etc a continent wide cell phone network. The hardware. Do you think he's familair with it? You bet your sorry *** he is. When reports came in of cell phone calls on planes, he cried bull! Absolute BULL!!! But he can't say anything. The mass if the world is against him. This person, I know them, personally.
Once again, to re-center, this has everything to do with 'free energy'. (remember, I don't like that term, in my book it is about as inaccurate as it gets. I would lke to call it 'cheaper energy'-or similar). Think about it.
Millions will die when the polar ice melts..
The climate will send huge storms to thow over our cities.
There will be nothing to eat.
Our cities will be under 50 m of sea water, when oceans rise.
This is the arguments we hear over and over again from the believers of Greenhouse effect. Or more correctly the socalled anthropogenic greenhouse effect, meaning that it is caused by us humans burning fossile fuels.
My question is: The fact is that by now we have already exhausted about half of the fossile fuels were likely to ever see here on earth. And where is the climate distaster ??
Some models predict a disaster in 100 years if we keep increasing fossile fuel burning by the current rate. Yes but the fact is, in 30-50 years there are no more fossile fuels to burn. So ... what is the point? 🙂
The climate will send huge storms to thow over our cities.
There will be nothing to eat.
Our cities will be under 50 m of sea water, when oceans rise.
This is the arguments we hear over and over again from the believers of Greenhouse effect. Or more correctly the socalled anthropogenic greenhouse effect, meaning that it is caused by us humans burning fossile fuels.
My question is: The fact is that by now we have already exhausted about half of the fossile fuels were likely to ever see here on earth. And where is the climate distaster ??
Some models predict a disaster in 100 years if we keep increasing fossile fuel burning by the current rate. Yes but the fact is, in 30-50 years there are no more fossile fuels to burn. So ... what is the point? 🙂
Lars, thanks for the link. What they've done is measure the rate of nucleation of water vapor in what's essentially a cloud chamber. From there, one has to leap several steps (including, "Is this an accurate representation of what actually happens in the atmosphere?") to find a maybe-possible-who-knows connection to global warming. And, as you certainly know, that's how one dips into the honeypot of research funding.
I gather from your comments that you've been reading Bjorn Lomborg? He takes a refreshingly fact-based contrarian view.
I gather from your comments that you've been reading Bjorn Lomborg? He takes a refreshingly fact-based contrarian view.
SY said:
My understanding of it is quite feeble and I won't pretend to understand the finer aspects, nor will I comfortably consider myself an expert due to my ignorance. All that being said, all I can do is consider that I understand that vaccuum makes an excellent insulator, that the transtion zone is quite large, much escapes thermal and otherwise, but gravity is not exactly a wimp either, etc, etc..
All in all, I don't know much about that stuff. I'd have to begin researching, and at that point, like most things, the knowledge gained is all ancedotal. Unless I deciced to pursue it to a deep level. Then it might get personal. Then I would run into the situation I was just saying I am in, right now - from others (just like proper climate researchers do). Such is life.
SY: yes but that analogy can swing both ways.... 😉
Did you have any explanation how CO2 should be linked to Global Warming, that holds up?
I basicly started studying this issue to find that explanation, but until now, no-one has been able to come up with one, that holds up to scrutiny.
Lars Clausen said:
It may never. The very definition of complex situations with many variables of a indeterminate nature. All it takes, is one unknown to destroy the chain of logic, to make it come crashing down. Almost any situation can have that indeterminate variable, or have that indeterminate variable created/introduced, either in fact, or via desire-subterfuge.
Heck, you can watch it in action with an older child messing with the head of their 1.5-5 year younger sibling. Or the same age. Or whatever situation. Happens all the time. Part of the human condition.
@Lars Clausen,
Thanks for the article.
I for myself haven't decided yet if "global warming" or climate change exists or is a factual trend.
Is there an agenda?
OTOH - google under insurance industry and climate change - there are some changes coming, especially regarding swiss re&re, alliance and insurance coverage of coastal US areas.
Thanks for the article.
I for myself haven't decided yet if "global warming" or climate change exists or is a factual trend.
Is there an agenda?
OTOH - google under insurance industry and climate change - there are some changes coming, especially regarding swiss re&re, alliance and insurance coverage of coastal US areas.
I would agree with KBK on that. There are lots of proposed mechanisms, but precious little evidence. And we're just scratching the surface, so to speak, of planetary environmental science.
I should emphasize that although I've had a reasonable amount of physics training, I have only one course and zero experience in atmospheric physics, so I am NOT claiming to speak with any special expertise.
I should emphasize that although I've had a reasonable amount of physics training, I have only one course and zero experience in atmospheric physics, so I am NOT claiming to speak with any special expertise.
They have also presented a precise correllation between global temperatures, and cosmic ray dispersion in the atmosphere, for the last 4 billion years.
Something the Co2 side, can only do accurately for the last 1000 years. (Effectively a long straight line, with a small rise at the end - present time).
I have known you on the forum for many years, and you always seem to be very competent. Thus the high interest for your comments on this one.
Take a look here:
http://carto.eu.org/article2481.html
Both CO2 and temperature is changing more or less in sync. But don't you think it's curious there is such a stable frequency to it all. This is where Henrik Svenmark suggests this is because of our position in the galaxy, that correllates exactly with those intervals.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way About half way down: It takes the solar system about 225-250 million years to complete one orbit (a galactic year),
Now lay over the curves with 225-250 million years displacement. Then you will get a pretty good correllation.
Another thing is, that on these curves, many places the temperature starts going down tens of thousands of years before the CO2 levels starts dropping.
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