Yes the board I am standing on closes the waveguide, and yes I also have a solid version as well (no hole over the speakers), experimenting with both.
Obviously different results based on capturing sound from the back of the speaker. Closed has more bass, which honestly I don't need, because I am getting so much from the waveguides. Open is noticeably loader (can't remember dB difference). The soundboard itself will also have a version with standard hole, and no hole. Amazing how trying different combinations of both changes the volume, tone, and which frequencies levels are favored.
Again the chamber divider must be fully closed and pressed hard against the body to get great results. I am only getting some feedback from a mic, and also a little with pressure transducers when I mount them within 4" of the speakers. That is where they pickup too much vibration and feedback, beyond that no feedback. The under saddle piezo zero feedback, at least with another guitar, so not a great test, but encouraging. The "chamber divider" I am standing on is very easy to make, so I can try many different types. 1/4" Baltic Birch, just cut/sand the outside/inside shapes at home.
I want to screw this and the top soundboard onto the guitar, no glue, so they can be removed easily. This is where the banjo construction influences me, and also the soundboard/skin that moves so easily on a banjo.
Since the maple is 1/4" thick, I can easily use #5-40 stainless steel screws. Brass looks better, but not strong enough. Dovetail programming should be complete this week, pretty easy, then of course waiting for machine time at work to cut it. After that I can assemble/fit.
I don't know why I decided to stand on the chamber divider, but it is pretty amazing to feel the vibration in your legs. I know not useful, but fun! I keep telling myself bottom rigid as possible so it rings like a bell, and top as thin/strong as possible so it moves like a driver cone. Have you checked out Electrophonic Innovations with the amp/speaker in an electric guitar? What do you think? I believe the amp is rated at less than 20 watts. Thanks JJ!
Obviously different results based on capturing sound from the back of the speaker. Closed has more bass, which honestly I don't need, because I am getting so much from the waveguides. Open is noticeably loader (can't remember dB difference). The soundboard itself will also have a version with standard hole, and no hole. Amazing how trying different combinations of both changes the volume, tone, and which frequencies levels are favored.
Again the chamber divider must be fully closed and pressed hard against the body to get great results. I am only getting some feedback from a mic, and also a little with pressure transducers when I mount them within 4" of the speakers. That is where they pickup too much vibration and feedback, beyond that no feedback. The under saddle piezo zero feedback, at least with another guitar, so not a great test, but encouraging. The "chamber divider" I am standing on is very easy to make, so I can try many different types. 1/4" Baltic Birch, just cut/sand the outside/inside shapes at home.
I want to screw this and the top soundboard onto the guitar, no glue, so they can be removed easily. This is where the banjo construction influences me, and also the soundboard/skin that moves so easily on a banjo.
Since the maple is 1/4" thick, I can easily use #5-40 stainless steel screws. Brass looks better, but not strong enough. Dovetail programming should be complete this week, pretty easy, then of course waiting for machine time at work to cut it. After that I can assemble/fit.
I don't know why I decided to stand on the chamber divider, but it is pretty amazing to feel the vibration in your legs. I know not useful, but fun! I keep telling myself bottom rigid as possible so it rings like a bell, and top as thin/strong as possible so it moves like a driver cone. Have you checked out Electrophonic Innovations with the amp/speaker in an electric guitar? What do you think? I believe the amp is rated at less than 20 watts. Thanks JJ!
From the only video I found that had something to compare it's volume to (some laughing at the end of a riff) it seems to be no louder than an acoustic guitar.
I was wondering how it could get any volume from those speakers with almost no enclosure to speak of really.
In some ways like the Fender Acoustasonic, which also has a small acoustic chamber, also low volume (but no speaker).
I don't see the point in making guitars that are not much louder than an acoustic guitar. You will just have to play it hard to keep up
with other instruments, then distortion happens and tone goes downhill. As I said before, when my waveguides are not covered,
the volume increase is very minimal, so Art your comment about that guitar not being much louder than an Acoustic Guitar may
very well be true, I will check it out. I still like the guitar, and their concept is good, may need some improvement, I will buy one and test.
They also get good reviews, but I wonder from who, because every once in a while they get a review from a guy that says it sounds terrible,
does he know something, or have a real ear for music, that some of the others do not, I can only wonder. I am convinced if you do not put
serious waveguides or serious horns (or a combination of the two) 🙂🤔 inside the guitar and make it truly like a fine speaker cabinet,
you will just have a few small speakers mounted in a piece of wood, big deal. Guitars like that have been around for decades.
Oh yeah, and will my instrument need improvement? Of course it will!
Electric guitars today are great, and have been for a long time. The Acoustic Guitar sounds great, but needs improvement.
It can be done, and not throw the baby out with the bath water, keep all the good parts (tonewood, body size, beautiful tone, portability).
Add some damn volume, a very serious improvement. Just pick it up anywhere and play, lets rock!
In some ways like the Fender Acoustasonic, which also has a small acoustic chamber, also low volume (but no speaker).
I don't see the point in making guitars that are not much louder than an acoustic guitar. You will just have to play it hard to keep up
with other instruments, then distortion happens and tone goes downhill. As I said before, when my waveguides are not covered,
the volume increase is very minimal, so Art your comment about that guitar not being much louder than an Acoustic Guitar may
very well be true, I will check it out. I still like the guitar, and their concept is good, may need some improvement, I will buy one and test.
They also get good reviews, but I wonder from who, because every once in a while they get a review from a guy that says it sounds terrible,
does he know something, or have a real ear for music, that some of the others do not, I can only wonder. I am convinced if you do not put
serious waveguides or serious horns (or a combination of the two) 🙂🤔 inside the guitar and make it truly like a fine speaker cabinet,
you will just have a few small speakers mounted in a piece of wood, big deal. Guitars like that have been around for decades.
Oh yeah, and will my instrument need improvement? Of course it will!
Electric guitars today are great, and have been for a long time. The Acoustic Guitar sounds great, but needs improvement.
It can be done, and not throw the baby out with the bath water, keep all the good parts (tonewood, body size, beautiful tone, portability).
Add some damn volume, a very serious improvement. Just pick it up anywhere and play, lets rock!
I did look at their website - thanks for letting me know. Of course, I cant tell if the second grille is a port or another speaker. I suspect it wont hold a candle to your invention when finished. You should ask them if they'd be interested in a license ;')
I think they might have two speakers, but thank you JJ for your support! I gave them my info on their website contact page,
we shall see if they respond. I am interested in a license deal, and other options. I really can't wait until I get this guitar assembled,
then I will have a real product. My intention is to show it on YouTube and also a website. I keep telling myself, patience. patience...
we shall see if they respond. I am interested in a license deal, and other options. I really can't wait until I get this guitar assembled,
then I will have a real product. My intention is to show it on YouTube and also a website. I keep telling myself, patience. patience...
It's a second speaker, the guitar has stereo effects. The combined speaker sensitivity for the 3.5" and 2"(guestimated sizes) is probably around 90dB 1w/1m sensitivity, so around 103 dB at one meter with 18 watts "full tilt". In the Electrophonic video "Loud is Relative. Dillos are fun", with a Guitarmadillo playing with drums around 10 feet away, the heavily distorted guitar sounds about as loud as the kick drum when the camera/mic is a few feet from the guitar. If the guitar was played clean, the average level would sound about half as loud, -10dB.
Joe's far larger (and heavier..) horn properly executed with the correct drivers potentially could have peaks with sensitivity of near 105dB 1w/1m, though his comparison of the guitar horn only being +5dB over the Bose radio (roughly 85 dB 1w/1m) and the horn's lack of high frequency output does not sound encouraging.
Art
"does not sound encouraging" always breaks my heart Art 🤣. That said I did finally load REW, looks great, so maybe I can come up with
some more accurate data. The Bose and my guitar are WAY loader than a standard acoustic guitar, and maybe about the same as the
Electrophonic guitar, which is 18 watts as you note. My amp is 30 watts plugged in, which I do not want to do, so only 20 watts with batteries.
The speakers are 20 watts each. Sorry about the "WAY loader" subjective analysis for now, will improve!
While the waveguides/horns provide great lows, I agree more mid/highs are needed or course. I still do not have the full guitar, so when the light
yet strong Baltic Birch soundboard is added, I am hoping it will provide more mid/highs purely acoustically, and also though the piezo pickup.
I can bend that soundboard so far with my hands it is incredible. If I tried to move a Sitka Spruce soundboard like that, it snaps like a twig.
I love Sitka Spruce soundboards, but hope for more volume with my soundboard concept.
I like your comment about my larger waveguides/horns. Since I have the room, I have been considering adding two more speakers. Maybe two tweeters.
I have room to add them in two areas, and they can be mounted similar to the 3" full range speakers, see attachment. Any suggestions for locations and
why Art, JJ and others? Thank you! Joe
some more accurate data. The Bose and my guitar are WAY loader than a standard acoustic guitar, and maybe about the same as the
Electrophonic guitar, which is 18 watts as you note. My amp is 30 watts plugged in, which I do not want to do, so only 20 watts with batteries.
The speakers are 20 watts each. Sorry about the "WAY loader" subjective analysis for now, will improve!
While the waveguides/horns provide great lows, I agree more mid/highs are needed or course. I still do not have the full guitar, so when the light
yet strong Baltic Birch soundboard is added, I am hoping it will provide more mid/highs purely acoustically, and also though the piezo pickup.
I can bend that soundboard so far with my hands it is incredible. If I tried to move a Sitka Spruce soundboard like that, it snaps like a twig.
I love Sitka Spruce soundboards, but hope for more volume with my soundboard concept.
I like your comment about my larger waveguides/horns. Since I have the room, I have been considering adding two more speakers. Maybe two tweeters.
I have room to add them in two areas, and they can be mounted similar to the 3" full range speakers, see attachment. Any suggestions for locations and
why Art, JJ and others? Thank you! Joe
Joe,
Once you share some measurements, I'd be glad to suggest what might improve the response.
That said, adding more hardware to correct root problems is not a fruitful route.
What brand/model drivers are you using?
Once you share some measurements, I'd be glad to suggest what might improve the response.
That said, adding more hardware to correct root problems is not a fruitful route.
What brand/model drivers are you using?
Hello Art, JJ and all - REW software is great, I gave him a 100 bucks and he appreciated that. I was like are you kidding,
you give this software to people for free, great guy. Attached is first look, much to learn with this software, but a good start.
Let me have it, and thanks! Joe
you give this software to people for free, great guy. Attached is first look, much to learn with this software, but a good start.
Let me have it, and thanks! Joe
First page is a Taylor Guitar, second page is mine...more to follow. 20 dB easy, frequency response...need better testing.
I'll go out on a limb here, to try and quickly describe one thing you can do with REW to help analyze what you have. I'll assume you have some kind of USB sound output and recording interface.
Let's try some pink noise. Open the Generator, go to the Noise tab and then the Pink random tab. Select Full range, just under the Pink random tab. Press the "Play" button in the lower right corner. Plugging in a set of headphones into your USB audio output, you should hear a sort of waterfall sound. Now arrange cabling from that audio output to the input of your guitar's amplifier, so that the same sound comes out your guitar's speaker horns.
Now, using the same RTA "spectrum analysis" you showed above with the mic, you'll need to change the RTA mode from "spectrum" to "RTA 1/24th octave". This is done by clicking on the "gear" symbol, just below the "X" used to close the window.
Theoretically, if your amplifier is flat and your speaker is flat and your microphone is flat, you'll get a flat response. We can assume the mic is flat, but dont know about the amp. For now, just set any tone controls to flat position and we'll assume its flat in FR until getting around to actually measure it electrically.
Get your guitar's horns making some sound by cranking up the volume moderately and measure that with the mic, setup say a meter away. The FR of your horn speaker setup should be revealed. You can do it more accurately using a FR sweep, but for now this is the easy way to get a first look at what the speaker system is doing.
You may get a better measurement by placing the guitar on a bed, with the neck and horn outlets facing the mic about 1M away, also upon the bed surface. It'll be interesting to see what shows up in the spectrum - I mean RTA!
Let's try some pink noise. Open the Generator, go to the Noise tab and then the Pink random tab. Select Full range, just under the Pink random tab. Press the "Play" button in the lower right corner. Plugging in a set of headphones into your USB audio output, you should hear a sort of waterfall sound. Now arrange cabling from that audio output to the input of your guitar's amplifier, so that the same sound comes out your guitar's speaker horns.
Now, using the same RTA "spectrum analysis" you showed above with the mic, you'll need to change the RTA mode from "spectrum" to "RTA 1/24th octave". This is done by clicking on the "gear" symbol, just below the "X" used to close the window.
Theoretically, if your amplifier is flat and your speaker is flat and your microphone is flat, you'll get a flat response. We can assume the mic is flat, but dont know about the amp. For now, just set any tone controls to flat position and we'll assume its flat in FR until getting around to actually measure it electrically.
Get your guitar's horns making some sound by cranking up the volume moderately and measure that with the mic, setup say a meter away. The FR of your horn speaker setup should be revealed. You can do it more accurately using a FR sweep, but for now this is the easy way to get a first look at what the speaker system is doing.
You may get a better measurement by placing the guitar on a bed, with the neck and horn outlets facing the mic about 1M away, also upon the bed surface. It'll be interesting to see what shows up in the spectrum - I mean RTA!
Thank you much JJ, appreciate the help! I will definitely try that. Much to learn with the REW software, will be fun and interesting to see results.
I recorded some soundboard tapping frequency response for fun. Sitka Spruce is the standard. I also attached my Baltic Birch, higher dB and
very similar frequency range. Included Maple body, also higher dB and similar frequency range.
very similar frequency range. Included Maple body, also higher dB and similar frequency range.
FR for iPhone through guitar no horns, and iPhone through guitar with closed horns.
FR for Acoustic Guitar no horns, and Acoustic Guitar closed horns.
JJ I can see REW is like good CAD software, complex and needs time to learn, but when you know it, lights out!
I am still self training to get deep into the system, but will test your suggestions. Thanks! Joe
FR for Acoustic Guitar no horns, and Acoustic Guitar closed horns.
JJ I can see REW is like good CAD software, complex and needs time to learn, but when you know it, lights out!
I am still self training to get deep into the system, but will test your suggestions. Thanks! Joe
Hi Joe,
Frequency response measurements using a specific voltage like 2volts (one watt into a 4 ohm load) at a specific distance (one meter) from the mic to the sound board of the guitar would be interesting.
In this (non-calibrated) example using a computer internal mic and speaker, we can see the response fits within +/-10dB from about 140Hz to about 13kHz, and at 87.8 Hz output has dropped below the noise floor, and harmonic distortion is above 100%.
Art
Thanks much Art, I see there are 316 pages of REW help, I will be doing plenty of reading! I was listening to an R&B band at a street
festival last night, and recorded dB and FR on my iPhone (Earth, Wind and Fire song). The bass player was rocking it, thought the drums
were a little too loud, but overall sounded pretty good for outdoors. They almost hit 100 dB as measured about 50 feet away from the stage.
My guitar is maxing at approx. 105 dB, so a good comparison for me. Good rocking volume, but not over the top loud!
festival last night, and recorded dB and FR on my iPhone (Earth, Wind and Fire song). The bass player was rocking it, thought the drums
were a little too loud, but overall sounded pretty good for outdoors. They almost hit 100 dB as measured about 50 feet away from the stage.
My guitar is maxing at approx. 105 dB, so a good comparison for me. Good rocking volume, but not over the top loud!
Thank you JJ for the great details regarding REW. I have it down with the software, just I need a USB to 1/4" connector.
Surprised I don't have one, oh yeah the standards for connectors suck, forgot about that. I only have about 25 other
combinations! Check out the attached for fun and stay tuned! Joe
Surprised I don't have one, oh yeah the standards for connectors suck, forgot about that. I only have about 25 other
combinations! Check out the attached for fun and stay tuned! Joe
JJ - I recorded data per your suggestion, thank you! It looks pretty flat to me, but please tell me your thoughts.
I registered for a guitar building class in August, will help me understand the details required for final assembly, I need it.
Chicago School of Guitar Making, right in my old neighborhood back in the day.
I registered for a guitar building class in August, will help me understand the details required for final assembly, I need it.
Chicago School of Guitar Making, right in my old neighborhood back in the day.
The owner of Chicago School of Guitar Making also builds serious horn speakers, can't wait to talk with him!