I don't cut or boost. I just want to hear it like it was intended. If it sound bright or dull, I don't object to fiddlin, but I haven't for a long, long time and I do a lot of listening. The bass is a different story--it's EQed flat for the listening position. I'll twist the bass knob up when I'm in the mood, but not for monitoring.
It definitely sounds like it has less bass and a little less treble when the volume goes down, more when the volume goes up. That should be the case for all of us I hope. I can't honestly say that bothers me a bit. When mixing I'm typically in the 80 dB range. Otherwise typically lower, some times much lower, other times a little lower, occasionally higher, etc ..... Just like everyone else I bet. In the HT, I typically set it to 0 dB, but I haven't measured how loud that is. The dynamic swings are rather large anyway and I'm not sure I could do anything of any meaning. I think that mark is supposed to be 75dB.
Dan
The speakers I listen to daily graph like this(in 11.25 degrees from 0-90):
Though the amount of pattern control varies, only the top one sound bright at all. I don't actually think it's bright--more like a little harsh. My bet it that it has something to do with the more ragged response.
When it graphed like this:
It was more bright/harsh.
My favorite is the one in the middle FWIW and it sounds the most dark but definitely not dull. That top octave pretty much doesn't matter.😱
I did notice when I made more narrow patterned speakers:
they were bright sounding when crossfired..... but they were always a little bright sounding. I attributed that to the lack of bass and the high dynamics of the Horn, but now I think it may well have just been the diffraction possibly all the way to the phase plug. Crossfiring them seemed to accentuate this bright/harsh feature. It certainly had its benefits in feeling of spaciousness and an even sound field with great imaging all around.
I can't quite figure out what you mean/how it would work with the reverb on the bass--I sort of get it, but can't place it together quite right in my head. I bet it's in there, but I just don't know enough. None the less a cool idea.
Dan
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in a real general sense I'm sure you are right but I'm thinking of the Fletcher-Munson curve and the affect on our perception of "equal loudness" depending on volume... perhaps this can partially account for the varied response to this question when it is answered more seriously. 🙂
And my thinking is the perhaps the this is a good part of the reason why music frequently only sounds right at the "recommended monitoring level" that you described.
Did you really think that I would listen at some outrageous volume? No need to answer, but I'm not trying to go deaf at a young age. I love music way too much too listen at extremely quiet levels as well.
I think you are right about the monitoring level. I think all audio stuffs should be mastered at 70 or 75 dB like people seem to listen. It is easier to hear detail at louder volumes.
Dan
I think you are right about the monitoring level. I think all audio stuffs should be mastered at 70 or 75 dB like people seem to listen. It is easier to hear detail at louder volumes.
Dan
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Except in a tightly sealed car I have not found this effect to be significant in real rooms. They are far too leaky for that. My room is exceptionally tight and I don't see it there. I get a huge gain (much more than I'd like) at the first mode of about 25 Hz, but below that it drops like a stone. No "cabin gain" at all.
In cars there is a big effect, but thats a much smaller volume.
Had you not said anything my giess would have been for the middle one. Its clearly better than the others. See measurements do work!
Umm, looks like somebody just noticed the 800 lb gorilla in the room.... once every 10 pages in this thread.
I wonder if there are people who feel the Fletcher-Munson phenomenon is too subjective to talk about here? Only kidding - there couldn't be people like that around here.
BTW, what is the right level to listen brass band music in my music room? Synthetic Kitaro music?
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I still like my music on the loud side. Talking Heads at low levels just do not have the same impact. (just got "Stop Making Sense" in Blue Ray for my birthday)
The loudness curve has been hashed over significantly over the years. First off the Fletcher-Munson curves are know to be inacurate for music. They were done with pure tones not complex signals about 50 years ago over headphones. More modern experiments do not get the same results. And they are not an absolute effect, but a differencial effect. If the music is mixed at 80 dB and played back at 80 dB then there is no "loudness" compensation required because there is no SPL differential. If the two levels are different then there is some logic to an adjustment. Toole has concluded that a slight bass boost for lower than mixed levels is about all that one can justify based on the data. I prefer to just turn it up until it sounds right. That basically accomplishes the same thing.
Talk about "subjective" all you want. Just be prepared to hear the truth about it instead of what you've been told or believe. That or get me kicked off the forum. That's happened before.
Talk about "subjective" all you want. Just be prepared to hear the truth about it instead of what you've been told or believe. That or get me kicked off the forum. That's happened before.
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I wish the engineers would leave notes on the CD. Sometimes we might even deduce that they were partially deaf (or daft) from their comments... this could be helpful. 😛
so... a couple dB if one has relatively CD... and another couple if one listens at quite low volumes.
hmmm... my preference has been to drop a 1 or 2 dB on top when listening at higher volumes but maybe I'm hearing some limitations of my speaker dynamics (ie. compression/distortion)
I think most would prefer to hear the truth... but subjective opinions also matter as does respect. 🙂
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All too true, but people see that top octave and freak.😱 It's of so little importance in the grand scheme of audio reproduction. It's nice to have it there.... Strangely, people blame a lot of compression driver harshness on their top octave performance. After seeing/hearing that, I know that's not the problem. Others blame titanium dome's harshness on it--these are titanium domes and they are anything but harsh. However, the other 2 titanium tweeters in those graphs do have harshness. I wonder if anyone could guess which graphs those are?🙂
Dan
I'm not sure you want brass at live levels in your music room. Pops plays a mean trombone, but it's darn loud in the living room. A whole band of that would be wild!
What would Stravinsky do?
Dan
What would Stravinsky do?
Dan
Studied and experimented with this in detail. If the simulated HRTF is not very similar to your own, the "cone of confusion" can become a "sphere of confusion" at worst, or just collapse into your head with timbre issues at best.
HRTF change with head movement is also a near must for moving this outside the head. Sony tried to simulate head movement but it was a disaster IME, the accelerometer needed to be recalibrated ed with a push button every few minutes.
Dave Dal Farra
Or through placement. Setting the speakers along a long wall. Best sound I ever achieved was having side walls> 5' out both left and right, and very lossy floor pad and acoustic tile ceiling. Rest of teh room was hard and even fair amount of glass.
That's a subjective description, or at best a description of the phase response between unpredictable, not uncorrelated.
Correct descriptions:
Uncorrelated: n*90 degrees out of phase. Correlated: in phase. Negatively correlated: 180 deg out of phase. Anything in between is a mix of the above.
Dave
Indeed. Designers must use the scientific method and find repeatable fact-based approaches to delivering repeatable sonic perceptions, in controlled conditions.
However the bias factor is so overwhelming in actual listening, that anything (cost, colour, industrial design, smell) that aids in enhancing a desired illusion for the end user is fair game. To deny the user access and the benefit of these factors would be a form of audio fascism I can't begin to comprehend.
Dave
I am sorry Dave, but that is simply not correct. My descrip[tion was purely mathematical and not subjective at all. A signal exactly 90 degrees out of phase is completed correlated but in quadrature. Correlation involves more than simple the phase angle between two signals at a single frequency. You need to reread your text books.
That dogma is baring his teeth again. Someone's gonna get bit!
I'm not worried. I've fought off the dogs before.
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