Hi to everyone,
I want to build first of my speakers, and plans are for open baffles. I got inspired by Perry's Marshall perception of sound distribution out of the box, and it struck me - musical instruments, or voices, are not directed towards listener, but spread omnidirectionaly, and it's just how our brains posses the sound to give us all the cues by reflections of space. Not only this, but complemented full build plans by Perry, and support provided by members inspired me to build one's for my self. Inspired in such a way, that I couldn't sleep for few nights! ( Flash backs of my childhood memories night before fishing🙂. This time I hope "I'll catch some 🙂
Wanted to aske opinion on FaitalPRO 12FE330 cone driver, as I have found it has nice response, good xmax, weight, and all the rest I don't know what 😂
I want to get those soft rumbles of low notes of piano, and upright bass, and so it can be two per side if needed, or complemented with GRS 15PF-8.
... Wife factor wouldn't approve DSP rout, so passive.
Please join in thought and advise. I would like to invite @perrymarshall as well, so join everyone in please.
Thanks to everyone in advance.
I want to build first of my speakers, and plans are for open baffles. I got inspired by Perry's Marshall perception of sound distribution out of the box, and it struck me - musical instruments, or voices, are not directed towards listener, but spread omnidirectionaly, and it's just how our brains posses the sound to give us all the cues by reflections of space. Not only this, but complemented full build plans by Perry, and support provided by members inspired me to build one's for my self. Inspired in such a way, that I couldn't sleep for few nights! ( Flash backs of my childhood memories night before fishing🙂. This time I hope "I'll catch some 🙂
Wanted to aske opinion on FaitalPRO 12FE330 cone driver, as I have found it has nice response, good xmax, weight, and all the rest I don't know what 😂
I want to get those soft rumbles of low notes of piano, and upright bass, and so it can be two per side if needed, or complemented with GRS 15PF-8.
... Wife factor wouldn't approve DSP rout, so passive.
Please join in thought and advise. I would like to invite @perrymarshall as well, so join everyone in please.
Thanks to everyone in advance.
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Greets!
Nice driver! Thanks! Driver's Qt makes it ~transient perfect, though if heated up with high power to replicate the LF's transients will shift it towards 0.707 max flat, so personally would choose a bit over damped with a ~ 0.4 Qt. Either way would definitely use back to back dual drivers and true OB subwoofer for the lowest musical notes and at least (4) 15" or = if wanting low B.
Nice driver! Thanks! Driver's Qt makes it ~transient perfect, though if heated up with high power to replicate the LF's transients will shift it towards 0.707 max flat, so personally would choose a bit over damped with a ~ 0.4 Qt. Either way would definitely use back to back dual drivers and true OB subwoofer for the lowest musical notes and at least (4) 15" or = if wanting low B.
The Faital is a good choice, and is efficient, but if you're not using DSP at all then its Q of 0.45 is too low for Open Baffle.
Please remember however you don't have to use multiple amps to use DSP. Even a $99 WiiM streamer has built in DSP and it easily allows you to EQ a woofer so the Q no longer matters and you can select it just based on Xmax and efficiency. You probably need a 5-10dB boost at 45Hz.
In that case the 12FE330 will work just fine. I do think that a 12" is on the small side for an OB with deep bass. A 15 is better and I like the 15OB350.
Are you willing and able to use VituixCad to model the speakers and crossover?
Please remember however you don't have to use multiple amps to use DSP. Even a $99 WiiM streamer has built in DSP and it easily allows you to EQ a woofer so the Q no longer matters and you can select it just based on Xmax and efficiency. You probably need a 5-10dB boost at 45Hz.
In that case the 12FE330 will work just fine. I do think that a 12" is on the small side for an OB with deep bass. A 15 is better and I like the 15OB350.
Are you willing and able to use VituixCad to model the speakers and crossover?
I have never build speakers or worked with electronics. But there is always the start. I will try get VituixCad try to get basics maybe on Youtube how to use it and so on. Then I was looking for drivers this 15OB350 looked for me like a wavy response :/ Wouldnt two of 12" be better or comparable to one 15" ? Just asking, have no background as such here.
You should also follow this Thread 'Open Baffle project starting as a variant of Perry Marshall Cottonwoods--some help needed! 🙂'
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...marshall-cottonwoods-some-help-needed.421181/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...marshall-cottonwoods-some-help-needed.421181/
O.K so 2x15" - What about these https://loudspeakerdatabase.com/Faital/15PR300_8Ω
it has Qts 0.5 xmax 6mm but can go to 23mm total damage, high sensitivity, light weight. It could take +4 +7 bass boost cheme you shoved vith alpha15A?
What should I look for if I would take your hibrid path? What woofer for sealed enclosure 25hz ? Would 12FE330 work for one sealed another open baffle? THANKS
sorry mixed up with a drivers lists - Faital Pro 15PR450
it has Qts 0.5 xmax 6mm but can go to 23mm total damage, high sensitivity, light weight. It could take +4 +7 bass boost cheme you shoved vith alpha15A?
What should I look for if I would take your hibrid path? What woofer for sealed enclosure 25hz ? Would 12FE330 work for one sealed another open baffle? THANKS
sorry mixed up with a drivers lists - Faital Pro 15PR450
GRS 15PF-8 are cheap drivers with very high Qts 1.39. Maybe these could do open baffle lows and mid some other, or two of these?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the SB Bianco 15OB350.
If you're inspired by Perry's designs, why not build one of them?
Or, if you want to keep it simple, start with something like this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
But if you really want to design your own speaker, especially with a passive crossover, I'd recommend you download Basta! (see here: https://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/basta/basta.php) and start playing with it. It'll teach you a lot about drivers, baffle sizes, crossovers etc. And if you want to understand a lot of the design issues involved in open baffle and dipole speakers, there's no better source than Linkwitz Lab.
If you're inspired by Perry's designs, why not build one of them?
Or, if you want to keep it simple, start with something like this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
But if you really want to design your own speaker, especially with a passive crossover, I'd recommend you download Basta! (see here: https://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/basta/basta.php) and start playing with it. It'll teach you a lot about drivers, baffle sizes, crossovers etc. And if you want to understand a lot of the design issues involved in open baffle and dipole speakers, there's no better source than Linkwitz Lab.
Hmm. You've built far more speakers than me, @perrymarshall, but I don't agree. I'd go for two of those Faitals, with a chunky inductor, and a bit of extra resistance.
Here's a quick model. The Faitals are on a 500mm by 1100mm baffle, with a two component low-pass (6mH inductor with 1 ohm DC, and a 68uF cap). Over 90 dB sensitivity, and a -6dB point of about 43 Hz. Second order roll-off with crossover about 500 Hz.
The GRS will work. I'm not super enthusiastic about cheap drivers with short Xmax but that is a route you can take.
If you want to try the passive bass boost with the Faital, then it's best if you model it in VituixCad.
If you want to try the passive bass boost with the Faital, then it's best if you model it in VituixCad.
If you want to make a hybrid half dipole, half box speaker, then you need to pick a woofer that has the F3 that you want in your chosen size of box, whether sealed or ported.
I can’t tell what your assumptions are about your baffle in your model.
A woofer with a Q of 0.45, Fo=30Hz in a baffle the size of the Cottonwood Dipoles, the Walnut Dipoles or the Faital Dipoles (www.PerryMarshall.info/speakers) will not have that much bass. Those cabinets have a “dipole F3” of about 70Hz which of course falls off at 6dB/octave.
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Hi Perry, the only assumptions I made in my model were about baffle size/shape. As far as Basta's assumptions are concerned, it uses the same model as The Edge - both are Tolvan Data products. It's a 2D model (like Vituixcad, I believe) so it takes no account of what goes on behind the specified surface.
Basta! (to give it its full title) has been popular with OB builders for a while, I believe. It's a much simpler, more limited program than Vituixcad, but the learning curve is gentle. I find it useful.
Basta! (to give it its full title) has been popular with OB builders for a while, I believe. It's a much simpler, more limited program than Vituixcad, but the learning curve is gentle. I find it useful.
I meant to say, too, the driver's Qts is effectively increased when there's series resistance in the circuit, so the nominal 0.45 figure isn't really applicable any more. (If I've got this right, the additional 1 ohm in my modelled circuit takes the Qt up to about 0.53. More resistance would take it further, at the expense of burning off more power in the resistor, obviously.)
Anyway, here's an Edge sim of that baffle/driver size combination. I'm not sure how it'll compare to your experience:
Anyway, here's an Edge sim of that baffle/driver size combination. I'm not sure how it'll compare to your experience:
There's one question in my mind about the Faital 12FE330, as an OB driver - does it have any mechanical noise issues when used without an enclosure? It's not uncommon with pro woofers. I've had a quick look online to see if anyone has tried it for OB, but haven't found anything.
An alternative, which has been used succesfully in OB applications, is the Beyma 12BR70. It models very similarly, costs only a fraction more, and has a cast frame rather than the stamped basket of the Faitals. It's used in pairs in Clayton Shaw's Caladan.
An alternative, which has been used succesfully in OB applications, is the Beyma 12BR70. It models very similarly, costs only a fraction more, and has a cast frame rather than the stamped basket of the Faitals. It's used in pairs in Clayton Shaw's Caladan.
@ianbo I have tried to play with Basta! But I cant find Edge - Baffle designer window.
...Oh dear. I tried to use VituixCAD2 to "do something", got stuck even combining frequency and impedance graphs together, to even get in drivers parameters to start failed. I wanted to use @Marshals bass boost on 3 x 12SW-412" polyclones 4 OHM. Perry, could you simulate this for me, please?
The Edge is a separate program, downloadable from the Tolvan Data website. See here: https://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/edge/edge.php
@ianbo Would you know is it possible to put @perrymarshall bass boost circuit in Basta! Also I don't know should I put roll off of the driver (Q=0.82, Fs 32) (“2nd order filter” above) and 2) the roll off of the Open Baffle .
I am trying at least copy something just to have any idea what's for what...🙁
I am trying at least copy something just to have any idea what's for what...🙁
