Ric,
It occurs to me that my speakers might fulfill your requirements if the Fostex 8" were replaced with a PHL and using a ribbon tweeter with lower extention. One thing I don't know is how running the PHL open baffle would affect it's power handling.
It occurs to me that my speakers might fulfill your requirements if the Fostex 8" were replaced with a PHL and using a ribbon tweeter with lower extention. One thing I don't know is how running the PHL open baffle would affect it's power handling.
So many options, too little knlwledge
MarK,
I was wondering exactly the same. Still, a couple of points are obscure to me:
1-Untill a couple of days before, I did NOT know about a speaker manufacturer named PHL (the same happened to me with Stage Accompany and AC tweeters, by the way). Yesterday, after two days reading about them I went to their web site and found out that the founder of the company used to design drivers for Audax. Everybody seems to like them. I'll keep investigating.
2-Tweeter selection: I'm very interested in your notes about the AC. You see, I've been using the Fostex F17 in my Urei modified speakers for a month, so a direct comparison would be useful. (Besides the fact that you cannot fairly compare the two units, pricewise or technology, but still....)
Did I mention that this forum is great?
cheers
Ric
Variac said:
MarK,
I was wondering exactly the same. Still, a couple of points are obscure to me:
1-Untill a couple of days before, I did NOT know about a speaker manufacturer named PHL (the same happened to me with Stage Accompany and AC tweeters, by the way). Yesterday, after two days reading about them I went to their web site and found out that the founder of the company used to design drivers for Audax. Everybody seems to like them. I'll keep investigating.
2-Tweeter selection: I'm very interested in your notes about the AC. You see, I've been using the Fostex F17 in my Urei modified speakers for a month, so a direct comparison would be useful. (Besides the fact that you cannot fairly compare the two units, pricewise or technology, but still....)
Did I mention that this forum is great?
cheers
Ric
Yes, The really smart pro driver guys left Audax and started PHL
Apparently Focal people are "graduates" from Audax also.
Interestingly, the AC tweeter is so good that Dick Olsher is now using the 208 as more of a wide midrange than a full range.
Makes me curious how the PHL would sound in my speakers. I believe that among others Pass Rushmores use PHL drivers, so they really are good. I will check the specs, but I think a more expensive AC tweeter might be required to cover a bit lower range.
Apparently Focal people are "graduates" from Audax also.
Interestingly, the AC tweeter is so good that Dick Olsher is now using the 208 as more of a wide midrange than a full range.
Makes me curious how the PHL would sound in my speakers. I believe that among others Pass Rushmores use PHL drivers, so they really are good. I will check the specs, but I think a more expensive AC tweeter might be required to cover a bit lower range.
Hi
The PHL 8" in open baffle works, we used 8pcs of the 2460
on a 140x80 cm baffle in 2 rows of 4 with 4 hf units in a line between the PHL´s to get a planar wawe behaviour. Worked realy good on stage.
The PHL 8" in open baffle works, we used 8pcs of the 2460
on a 140x80 cm baffle in 2 rows of 4 with 4 hf units in a line between the PHL´s to get a planar wawe behaviour. Worked realy good on stage.
Open baffle
Hi Mark
I would love to go for the open baffle but as i´m using the AMT 1
and it fires front and back in phase maybe something strange would occur in the mid. We designed a TQWT for the PHL 7030 18" driver, tuned at 29Hz. This is one of the most impressive subs i´ve heard and would complement the dynamic of an open baffle. Not as nice looking as Your bass cabinet thoug.
The design for the 7030 was for Krafft speakers so i can´t put thedrawings up here but if someone´s interested i´ll redesign for Hifi andmake it available
Hi Mark
I would love to go for the open baffle but as i´m using the AMT 1
and it fires front and back in phase maybe something strange would occur in the mid. We designed a TQWT for the PHL 7030 18" driver, tuned at 29Hz. This is one of the most impressive subs i´ve heard and would complement the dynamic of an open baffle. Not as nice looking as Your bass cabinet thoug.
The design for the 7030 was for Krafft speakers so i can´t put thedrawings up here but if someone´s interested i´ll redesign for Hifi andmake it available
Sorry if this presently out of context butwhat range of paudio speakers were you refering to in your earlier discussion. They make many different series and the only ones I have used are the super cheap imf series(hp 12w).
thanks
don c
thanks
don c
Variac ,whats present status?
Pls tell, open baffle work good with the Fostex? I tried with a spare PHL 2460 in a 70x50 cm baffle with a coaxially mounted B&C 1" driver ( the 2460 has provision for an hf driver from behind, exponential pass through the polepiece ) Unbelieveable mid and dynamics but the hf a bit to harsh in that setup, good in a woodhorn thou. Glad for opinions and advice, am at a crossroads, feel that open baffle and AMT dont mate really well, and am somewhat addicted to that hf unit but the midrange dynamics of an open baffle mated with a TQWT with PHL 7030 18"
and a Fostex PH900 or such maybe is a better way?
Pls tell, open baffle work good with the Fostex? I tried with a spare PHL 2460 in a 70x50 cm baffle with a coaxially mounted B&C 1" driver ( the 2460 has provision for an hf driver from behind, exponential pass through the polepiece ) Unbelieveable mid and dynamics but the hf a bit to harsh in that setup, good in a woodhorn thou. Glad for opinions and advice, am at a crossroads, feel that open baffle and AMT dont mate really well, and am somewhat addicted to that hf unit but the midrange dynamics of an open baffle mated with a TQWT with PHL 7030 18"
and a Fostex PH900 or such maybe is a better way?
How sad that every post I make I have to say that I'm pretty ignorant 🙄
First, the Fostex is great, but it is really only being used as a wide midrange. The big woofer takes care of lots of the bass.
The AMT is intriging. Yes it will be out of phase with the mid.
Somehow I suspect that it won't matter as long as the front is in phase.
Sure would be the correct tweeter for bipole (push/push ) midwoofers- one facing forward , one back
Maybe this bump will catch someones attention!!
First, the Fostex is great, but it is really only being used as a wide midrange. The big woofer takes care of lots of the bass.
The AMT is intriging. Yes it will be out of phase with the mid.
Somehow I suspect that it won't matter as long as the front is in phase.
Sure would be the correct tweeter for bipole (push/push ) midwoofers- one facing forward , one back
Maybe this bump will catch someones attention!!
Mark,
You were planning to use a tube amp (Zen?) on the Fostex/supertweeter and a Gainclone on the bottom end.
I am going to try the same, with my Audio Note Kit One (300b) doing mids/highs and an AKSA solid state amp doing my Audax.
Were you planning to use an active crossover, or do you think it can work well just passive bi-amping? As you may remember, I bought the assembled Basszilla x-overs from Madisound. I am not real sure if by still running through the speakers passive x-over, then off to the seperate amps, does this lose much of the benefit as compared to active bi-amping? Active bi-amping would bypass the passive x-overs competely, and run speakers direct to the amps via the active x-over...Any opinions/experiences on this?
Cheers
Mark
You were planning to use a tube amp (Zen?) on the Fostex/supertweeter and a Gainclone on the bottom end.
I am going to try the same, with my Audio Note Kit One (300b) doing mids/highs and an AKSA solid state amp doing my Audax.
Were you planning to use an active crossover, or do you think it can work well just passive bi-amping? As you may remember, I bought the assembled Basszilla x-overs from Madisound. I am not real sure if by still running through the speakers passive x-over, then off to the seperate amps, does this lose much of the benefit as compared to active bi-amping? Active bi-amping would bypass the passive x-overs competely, and run speakers direct to the amps via the active x-over...Any opinions/experiences on this?
Cheers
Mark
OK, My wife has foolishly left town again for two weeks.
After getting home from dropping her at the airport I got right to work! I am upgrading my Basszillas to Platinum edition spec.
Since Dick Olsher used the Fostex 208EZ and Aurum Cantus 2si
I was in luck, as I had planned on using them anyway and had them on hand..... Actually I lobbied him pretty hard to go with these 😉
Well as we all know, the trick is the crossovers and the new edition has LOTs of crossovers-very different than the minimalist approach. Well, I'm still wiring the crossovers, but here are some pics of the new top baffle with the drivers in place. I have some ideas to make things a lot more compact, but first I am making it exacrtly top Dick's specs- then I have something to compare my mods to.
After getting home from dropping her at the airport I got right to work! I am upgrading my Basszillas to Platinum edition spec.
Since Dick Olsher used the Fostex 208EZ and Aurum Cantus 2si
I was in luck, as I had planned on using them anyway and had them on hand..... Actually I lobbied him pretty hard to go with these 😉
Well as we all know, the trick is the crossovers and the new edition has LOTs of crossovers-very different than the minimalist approach. Well, I'm still wiring the crossovers, but here are some pics of the new top baffle with the drivers in place. I have some ideas to make things a lot more compact, but first I am making it exacrtly top Dick's specs- then I have something to compare my mods to.
Attachments
They look beautiful...just one thing..are those casters you have installed on them?Do they roll around by themselves..when they hit those low notes..?😀
Well, those casters aren't politically correct, 
but I am forced to keep them against the wall when not in use. And to sound perfect the open baffle needs to be 3-5' from the rear wall.
So I just roll 'em out..... They must weigh at least 80 lbs so I think they don't move much!! I wish I could get rid of the casters though because in order to have my ears align with the tweeters
I have to sit up in the chair with good posture -not that relaxing. Thanks for the good comments. I swore that I would follow the directions on veneering that I got here - then I figured
that the baffles are a lot smaller than the boxes and I could use a brush instead of the specified foam roller to spread the contact cement. Well, what a disaster of glue clumps and boogers!!
Sooo if you look close in person, they are a bit lumpy. The lesson is - follow the directions.
but I am forced to keep them against the wall when not in use. And to sound perfect the open baffle needs to be 3-5' from the rear wall.So I just roll 'em out..... They must weigh at least 80 lbs so I think they don't move much!! I wish I could get rid of the casters though because in order to have my ears align with the tweeters
I have to sit up in the chair with good posture -not that relaxing. Thanks for the good comments. I swore that I would follow the directions on veneering that I got here - then I figured
that the baffles are a lot smaller than the boxes and I could use a brush instead of the specified foam roller to spread the contact cement. Well, what a disaster of glue clumps and boogers!!
Sooo if you look close in person, they are a bit lumpy. The lesson is - follow the directions.
Hello to all that have followed this thread!😀
I am now listening to my Basszilla Platinum Editions and I wanted to give a quick review.
As we have discussed briefly, the Basszilla was originally a
bass box with a low pass xover and a small open baffle with a Fostex 208 (or Lowther!) with no crossover.
This new edition is a full 3-way with LP filter on the bass,
LP and HP on the Fostex F208eZ, and a HP on the Aurum Cantus
ribbon tweeter.
Dick Olsher, the designer says that not having the Fostex try to reproduce low notes makes it clearer and less strained sounding.
I remember Lynn Olsen tried a single cap crossover on his Ariels
and came to the same conclusion about the tweeter he uses sounding harsher with such a low sloping crossover.
So , I'm not saying that a very simple crossover , or no crossover and letting drivers roll off naturally, doesn't work, I'm just saying that some knowledgable people say be careful, it's often just wishful thinking that a more complicated crossover isn't required.
OK, moving on,
First a confession- My version is not an perfect clone of a Basszilla Platinum. Instead of the now specified Eminence Magnum HO 15" bass driver , I'm using JBL 150H drivers which I got new surplus. They were used on over $4000 apiece speakers I believe, so the quality is good- but they may have different response than the Eminences.
Also, my bass box is a bit bigger than Dick specifies, and I calculated my own tuning and tube port size. Dick specs a slot the width of the box.
The Fostex and AC are exactly what Dick specs, as are the crossovers for them.
Finally, the JBL is considerably less efficient than the Fostex/AC combo so I have had to use an adjustable L-pad to cut the mid/tweet. I will eventually bi-amp the speakers, so I haven't worried about this, BUT some will throw up their hands when they hear how I am choking the other drivers this way.
😱 I'm sure that they will only improve when they get their own amp, and I put the JBL's on their own...
So these aren't flashy sounding speakers, instead they are very smooth in response. The high end is very resolving but not bright in the least.
I expected the ribbon tweeter might sound kind of tizzy and lightweight and maybe a bit of unatural silbilence on voices.
Instead, here is the first revelation: That aurum Cantus 2si tweeter is VERY GOOD; sweet and relaxed, not at all harsh-yet all the detail seems to be there. In this case it is crossed over higher than most tweeters, but not as high as most super tweeters typically used with full range drivers. The manufacturer gives some good advice on how to cross it over.
The Fostex sound very natural. Quite solid, imaging is good, but I am now discovering how many of my recordings are poorly recorded. Tone seems very accurate and good.
All and all I am very pleased. At the moment I am driving them with the gainclone I built my son, but the plan is to use a Pass SOX on the mid and tweeter, and a gainclone or my Hafler 220 on the bass. The Hafler 220 was what I was planning to use for the bass, with 110 watts/ch, but I am beginning to believe that the gainclone on the bass would sound better.
The bass driver seems to be a winner- it really makes drums as well as stand up bass sound real and tuneful Of course that knowledge doesn't help anyone because they can't get the driver, BUT it is generally true for any quality 15" pro type driver....
sooo.... This speaker showed me what people mean when they critisize a system for having a "High Fi" sound- This speaker doesn't call atention to itself- it just tries to get the music right.
I am going to stick with this speaker system, and improve it with a bi-amped setup and experiment with slight mods to the crossovers. It is definately a "Keeper"
I am now listening to my Basszilla Platinum Editions and I wanted to give a quick review.
As we have discussed briefly, the Basszilla was originally a
bass box with a low pass xover and a small open baffle with a Fostex 208 (or Lowther!) with no crossover.
This new edition is a full 3-way with LP filter on the bass,
LP and HP on the Fostex F208eZ, and a HP on the Aurum Cantus
ribbon tweeter.
Dick Olsher, the designer says that not having the Fostex try to reproduce low notes makes it clearer and less strained sounding.
I remember Lynn Olsen tried a single cap crossover on his Ariels
and came to the same conclusion about the tweeter he uses sounding harsher with such a low sloping crossover.
So , I'm not saying that a very simple crossover , or no crossover and letting drivers roll off naturally, doesn't work, I'm just saying that some knowledgable people say be careful, it's often just wishful thinking that a more complicated crossover isn't required.
OK, moving on,
First a confession- My version is not an perfect clone of a Basszilla Platinum. Instead of the now specified Eminence Magnum HO 15" bass driver , I'm using JBL 150H drivers which I got new surplus. They were used on over $4000 apiece speakers I believe, so the quality is good- but they may have different response than the Eminences.
Also, my bass box is a bit bigger than Dick specifies, and I calculated my own tuning and tube port size. Dick specs a slot the width of the box.
The Fostex and AC are exactly what Dick specs, as are the crossovers for them.
Finally, the JBL is considerably less efficient than the Fostex/AC combo so I have had to use an adjustable L-pad to cut the mid/tweet. I will eventually bi-amp the speakers, so I haven't worried about this, BUT some will throw up their hands when they hear how I am choking the other drivers this way.
😱 I'm sure that they will only improve when they get their own amp, and I put the JBL's on their own...
So these aren't flashy sounding speakers, instead they are very smooth in response. The high end is very resolving but not bright in the least.
I expected the ribbon tweeter might sound kind of tizzy and lightweight and maybe a bit of unatural silbilence on voices.
Instead, here is the first revelation: That aurum Cantus 2si tweeter is VERY GOOD; sweet and relaxed, not at all harsh-yet all the detail seems to be there. In this case it is crossed over higher than most tweeters, but not as high as most super tweeters typically used with full range drivers. The manufacturer gives some good advice on how to cross it over.
The Fostex sound very natural. Quite solid, imaging is good, but I am now discovering how many of my recordings are poorly recorded. Tone seems very accurate and good.
All and all I am very pleased. At the moment I am driving them with the gainclone I built my son, but the plan is to use a Pass SOX on the mid and tweeter, and a gainclone or my Hafler 220 on the bass. The Hafler 220 was what I was planning to use for the bass, with 110 watts/ch, but I am beginning to believe that the gainclone on the bass would sound better.
The bass driver seems to be a winner- it really makes drums as well as stand up bass sound real and tuneful Of course that knowledge doesn't help anyone because they can't get the driver, BUT it is generally true for any quality 15" pro type driver....
sooo.... This speaker showed me what people mean when they critisize a system for having a "High Fi" sound- This speaker doesn't call atention to itself- it just tries to get the music right.
I am going to stick with this speaker system, and improve it with a bi-amped setup and experiment with slight mods to the crossovers. It is definately a "Keeper"
So, an update....
After a few days I realized that to say that these had a sound similar to electrostatics was completely wrong.. the mid bass was too heavy. Then later I realized EVERYTHING was bloated.
Something was wrong
SO I figure out that the 15" driver was slowly breaking in and getting more and more output- getting more bassy but also muddiing up the mids. So.... I put the 2 cabinets facing each other with just the 15" drivers hooked up and out of phase,
so that they were pretty quiet, considering I cranked them to insane volumes. The idea was to stop any further gross changes to the woofers
After 5 hours of this I hooked everything up again and turned down the bass so the mid and tweeter were more prominant, and things were a lot better- plenty of deeper bass but delicate mids and highs....!!
My inductor is about 5% lower in value than Dick had specified for the bass LP filter. I had figured that it couldn't matter much, right? well I found I had an extra inductor sitting around that was exactly right to add in series to equal Dick's spec .so I hooked that up and then it was too bass shy in the mids, so I took it back out. 5% was quite noticible and since I used a differetn bass driver, not too surprising that I would need some difference in the xover.
It still sounds very very good. Very tight bass and very delicate mids and smooth detailed tweeter response.
Incredible dynamics of course, due to the efficient drivers.
So, I'm impressed how easy it is to spot flaws, and how hard it is to get things right. It is really amazing how the thin low mids ruined the sound of the entire speaker. Now the claim of electrostaticness makes sense. Love that tweeter - I suspect that Dick deserves a bit of credit here too for his crossover.
After a few days I realized that to say that these had a sound similar to electrostatics was completely wrong.. the mid bass was too heavy. Then later I realized EVERYTHING was bloated.
Something was wrong
SO I figure out that the 15" driver was slowly breaking in and getting more and more output- getting more bassy but also muddiing up the mids. So.... I put the 2 cabinets facing each other with just the 15" drivers hooked up and out of phase,
so that they were pretty quiet, considering I cranked them to insane volumes. The idea was to stop any further gross changes to the woofers
After 5 hours of this I hooked everything up again and turned down the bass so the mid and tweeter were more prominant, and things were a lot better- plenty of deeper bass but delicate mids and highs....!!
My inductor is about 5% lower in value than Dick had specified for the bass LP filter. I had figured that it couldn't matter much, right? well I found I had an extra inductor sitting around that was exactly right to add in series to equal Dick's spec .so I hooked that up and then it was too bass shy in the mids, so I took it back out. 5% was quite noticible and since I used a differetn bass driver, not too surprising that I would need some difference in the xover.
It still sounds very very good. Very tight bass and very delicate mids and smooth detailed tweeter response.
Incredible dynamics of course, due to the efficient drivers.
So, I'm impressed how easy it is to spot flaws, and how hard it is to get things right. It is really amazing how the thin low mids ruined the sound of the entire speaker. Now the claim of electrostaticness makes sense. Love that tweeter - I suspect that Dick deserves a bit of credit here too for his crossover.
Thats what happends when you got a semi decent system, somtimes i wonder if its a good thing to have a decent system or not as you can never go back to a crappy system and some recordings sound daft. I know for one after having a decent setup that id never go back, i normally remaster my music thats been recorded abit daft on the comp.
Great job variac, keep up the great work! and all the best in the future experiments.
Trev🙂
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