You can listen at Da Vinci Audio Labs in Las Vegas from 5 to 9 th of january, 2009.
It was expensive for me also ( since I'm retired ) but I dont regret.
It was expensive for me also ( since I'm retired ) but I dont regret.
..Now I think I really got to get a pair at my place. To see, how are Fertin's compared to another surroundless speaker.
😎
😎
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Fertin 20EX model 7
I have used extensively Fertin loudspeakers model 7 since begining of 2008.
I have tried the AP 13, the JA16, the 20S and 20 EX and the 30EX in different boxes.
I actually use a two way system made of JA16 Model 7 for mid and high with two 20EX model 7 in bass reflex enclosures. In fact the enclosures are the B&W 802 in which the Fertin speakers fit with very little modifications.
The JA16 in the B&W head is really something to hear.
Back to the model 7, you will find below some of my comments relevant to previous posts.
Model 7 suspension.
Up front it is a three flexible carbon wire suspension replacing the rubber surround which as said in the previous posts was in the standard version of about the same weight than the mass of the cone.
There is no pivot of any kind but a three flexible elbow carbon wire net which helps keeping the cone diameter round while it is moving back and forth.
The air gap between the cone and the steel ring (called previously phase plug) of the basket is on the 20EX about 1/10 of a mm, much less than 1 mm.
At the rear of the cone the "butterfly type" spider is made of very thin carbon lobes tighten in three points to the basket with autolock nuts.
Its purpose is to center the back of the cone in the engine air gap with as little spring force than possible.
Between the front carbon suspension and this spider, one understands that the Fertin cone is competly free to move at the calls of the powerfull engine. This is of particular evdence on the larger speakers where the suspension elements have virtually no mass relatively to the one of the cone.
Cone.
All Fertin cones are paper cones from a proprietary recipe.
Sensitivity.
Because of the speaker ability to move free with very stong engine (at the limit of magnetic satiration) it is in a sense an academic parameter : at 300 hz the 20 EX model 7 hexibits a sensitivity of 98 db. But at 3 Khz this sensitivity climb to 110 db !
As a result, my experience with these different diameter speakers is that they need to be corrected.
Corrections.
Analogic passive or active corrections introduce phase shifts in a speaker that has initially very little phase shift with frequencies. With phase shift a part of the music life of the large band speaker goes away. Sa that's therefore not the way to go.
Different experiences with Digital Signal Processors free of phase rotation proved to be the way to go : the Fertin speaker deliver the information and the DSP flatten its unbelievable sensitivity. It is a really intresting match.
Solutions.
Some are expensive, some are cheap. I ended up with the unavoidable DEQ and DCX2496, that I extensively tweaked outside the DSP board itself, see DIY Audio threads on the subject.
A Fertin 20EX model 7 associated with a tweaked DEQ2496 is an experience you will never forget.
Basses.
20EX Model 7 basses are unbelievable of discret frequencies reproduction, clarity and presence. But the outside diameter of the cone is only 17 cm. You cannot expect to reproduce an organ at high volume in a large room with it.
Once you have heard the 46 Model 7 in a Onken type enclosure you are close to the audiophile Graal Quest. Then you would consider a two way speaker system with the smaller AP13 or JA16 for everything above 150 Hz and a single 46 model 7 for frequencies below.
You would prefer as well the DCX2496 to manage correction and multiple way combination.
Da Vinci is exposing its Virtu speaker at Las Vegas in January, a two way system with the 20 EX Model 7 for mid and high and two 30 EX Model 7 per box for basses. I have heard they are really something.
I have used extensively Fertin loudspeakers model 7 since begining of 2008.
I have tried the AP 13, the JA16, the 20S and 20 EX and the 30EX in different boxes.
I actually use a two way system made of JA16 Model 7 for mid and high with two 20EX model 7 in bass reflex enclosures. In fact the enclosures are the B&W 802 in which the Fertin speakers fit with very little modifications.
The JA16 in the B&W head is really something to hear.
Back to the model 7, you will find below some of my comments relevant to previous posts.
Model 7 suspension.
Up front it is a three flexible carbon wire suspension replacing the rubber surround which as said in the previous posts was in the standard version of about the same weight than the mass of the cone.
There is no pivot of any kind but a three flexible elbow carbon wire net which helps keeping the cone diameter round while it is moving back and forth.
The air gap between the cone and the steel ring (called previously phase plug) of the basket is on the 20EX about 1/10 of a mm, much less than 1 mm.
At the rear of the cone the "butterfly type" spider is made of very thin carbon lobes tighten in three points to the basket with autolock nuts.
Its purpose is to center the back of the cone in the engine air gap with as little spring force than possible.
Between the front carbon suspension and this spider, one understands that the Fertin cone is competly free to move at the calls of the powerfull engine. This is of particular evdence on the larger speakers where the suspension elements have virtually no mass relatively to the one of the cone.
Cone.
All Fertin cones are paper cones from a proprietary recipe.
Sensitivity.
Because of the speaker ability to move free with very stong engine (at the limit of magnetic satiration) it is in a sense an academic parameter : at 300 hz the 20 EX model 7 hexibits a sensitivity of 98 db. But at 3 Khz this sensitivity climb to 110 db !
As a result, my experience with these different diameter speakers is that they need to be corrected.
Corrections.
Analogic passive or active corrections introduce phase shifts in a speaker that has initially very little phase shift with frequencies. With phase shift a part of the music life of the large band speaker goes away. Sa that's therefore not the way to go.
Different experiences with Digital Signal Processors free of phase rotation proved to be the way to go : the Fertin speaker deliver the information and the DSP flatten its unbelievable sensitivity. It is a really intresting match.
Solutions.
Some are expensive, some are cheap. I ended up with the unavoidable DEQ and DCX2496, that I extensively tweaked outside the DSP board itself, see DIY Audio threads on the subject.
A Fertin 20EX model 7 associated with a tweaked DEQ2496 is an experience you will never forget.
Basses.
20EX Model 7 basses are unbelievable of discret frequencies reproduction, clarity and presence. But the outside diameter of the cone is only 17 cm. You cannot expect to reproduce an organ at high volume in a large room with it.
Once you have heard the 46 Model 7 in a Onken type enclosure you are close to the audiophile Graal Quest. Then you would consider a two way speaker system with the smaller AP13 or JA16 for everything above 150 Hz and a single 46 model 7 for frequencies below.
You would prefer as well the DCX2496 to manage correction and multiple way combination.
Da Vinci is exposing its Virtu speaker at Las Vegas in January, a two way system with the 20 EX Model 7 for mid and high and two 30 EX Model 7 per box for basses. I have heard they are really something.
Here are the specs for the Fertin 20ex model 7(12.5v)
Rcc 7.08 ohms
Zmax. 398
Ro Zmax/Rcc 56.215
F1 22.62hz
F2 43.56hz
FR 31,390hz
Qms 11,239
Qes 0,204
Qts 0,200
Mad Kg 0,00425
FR' Hz 27,2hz
(FR/FR')2 1,332
(FR/FR 0,332
Mms Kg 0,013
2 pi FR 197,229
Rms 0,225
S m2 0,0179
Mas 39,975
Cms 0,002
Vas 0,090
BL 9,374
BL2 87,865
Res 390,920
Les 0,176
FR3 30929,344
R 0,013
Eff dB dans 0 200hz 93,068
acc.factor 732
Rcc 7.08 ohms
Zmax. 398
Ro Zmax/Rcc 56.215
F1 22.62hz
F2 43.56hz
FR 31,390hz
Qms 11,239
Qes 0,204
Qts 0,200
Mad Kg 0,00425
FR' Hz 27,2hz
(FR/FR')2 1,332
(FR/FR 0,332
Mms Kg 0,013
2 pi FR 197,229
Rms 0,225
S m2 0,0179
Mas 39,975
Cms 0,002
Vas 0,090
BL 9,374
BL2 87,865
Res 390,920
Les 0,176
FR3 30929,344
R 0,013
Eff dB dans 0 200hz 93,068
acc.factor 732
FERTIN 20ex model 7- surroundless driver
From what I heard, Jean-Marie had a fabulous time in L.A.
I don't know if he had the time to visit the casinos; but he told me
that it was a wonderful experience.
Jonathan Vilan (the executive editor) of theabsolutesound magazine
went a few times to the DaVinciaudio room at the CES to listen
to the Virtù loudspeaker. He really liked what he heard and he gave
it : the third best sound at the CES09 and the second best innovation product of the CRS.
The magazine is planning a more in-depth review of the Virtù
loudspeaker. I'll be looking forward to reading this.
Fertin-DaVinci, with the success that they had in L.A, will be
at the Montréal audio show.
I've always been a big fan of open-baffle. If you match open-baffle
with the best components; the result is for sure one of the best
sound you can have. With the Fertin model 7, we have achieved
a clarity,dynamic, liveliness in the sound that is unprecedent. Match this with
Peter Brem hi-end 300b tube amp and one of his sophisticated turntable. Bi-amp and voilà.
http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-editors-writers-pick-the-best-sound-ces-2009
http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-editors-reviewers-pick-the-most-significant-new-product-ces-09
From what I heard, Jean-Marie had a fabulous time in L.A.
I don't know if he had the time to visit the casinos; but he told me
that it was a wonderful experience.
Jonathan Vilan (the executive editor) of theabsolutesound magazine
went a few times to the DaVinciaudio room at the CES to listen
to the Virtù loudspeaker. He really liked what he heard and he gave
it : the third best sound at the CES09 and the second best innovation product of the CRS.
The magazine is planning a more in-depth review of the Virtù
loudspeaker. I'll be looking forward to reading this.
Fertin-DaVinci, with the success that they had in L.A, will be
at the Montréal audio show.
I've always been a big fan of open-baffle. If you match open-baffle
with the best components; the result is for sure one of the best
sound you can have. With the Fertin model 7, we have achieved
a clarity,dynamic, liveliness in the sound that is unprecedent. Match this with
Peter Brem hi-end 300b tube amp and one of his sophisticated turntable. Bi-amp and voilà.
http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-editors-writers-pick-the-best-sound-ces-2009
http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-editors-reviewers-pick-the-most-significant-new-product-ces-09
FERTIN 20ex model 7- surroundless driver
This is the e-mail that I received from DaVinciAudio; they wanted
to precise some information about their loudspeaker: the Virtù.
Hi Gilles
Peter and I think that this would be very helpful for the forum: So all interested people know the story.
DaVinciAudio Labs was searching drivers for a very special open baffle concept. After a long way we found Jean-Marie Semblat from Fertin Acoustic, who was able to make special drivers for our head Peter Brem. It was not easy to bring Peter's ideas in these drivers. Jean-Marie had many sleepless nights... but the result is very impressive.
Peter Brem of DaVinciAudio invented a sophisticated asymetrical open baffle system. You can not see all things that makes this loudspeaker very special. After listening the first sound we found the name Virtù as indicated. This system is really for great musiclovers.
One thing are of course the Fertin drivers. Then for example we use tone wood on 2 sides, which has 12 layers of violin lacquer. One side is of a special sandwich damping system. On the back side we use a acoustical guidance system. Hope you understand that we will not give out all our secrets.
The Virtù is a half active system. The LS power module consists of a PowerSupply for the field coil drivers, then an active frequency filter without distortion of phase. This cut the bass module by 100Hz with 24dB. Further a Mosfet power amplifier with 100Watt drive the 2 Fertin 30EX Model 7. Further he has a analog equivalizer for the Fertin 20EX Model 7. A 300B parallel single ended amplifier from DaVinciAudio drive the fullrange driver from Fertin.
This fantastic co-operation between Fertin-Acoustic and DaVinciAudio will bring new dimensions and emotions to your music.
Greetings from Switzerland
It was a pity that we didn't meet you at the CES .
DaVinciAudio Labs GmbH
Jolanda & Peter
This is the e-mail that I received from DaVinciAudio; they wanted
to precise some information about their loudspeaker: the Virtù.
Hi Gilles
Peter and I think that this would be very helpful for the forum: So all interested people know the story.
DaVinciAudio Labs was searching drivers for a very special open baffle concept. After a long way we found Jean-Marie Semblat from Fertin Acoustic, who was able to make special drivers for our head Peter Brem. It was not easy to bring Peter's ideas in these drivers. Jean-Marie had many sleepless nights... but the result is very impressive.
Peter Brem of DaVinciAudio invented a sophisticated asymetrical open baffle system. You can not see all things that makes this loudspeaker very special. After listening the first sound we found the name Virtù as indicated. This system is really for great musiclovers.
One thing are of course the Fertin drivers. Then for example we use tone wood on 2 sides, which has 12 layers of violin lacquer. One side is of a special sandwich damping system. On the back side we use a acoustical guidance system. Hope you understand that we will not give out all our secrets.
The Virtù is a half active system. The LS power module consists of a PowerSupply for the field coil drivers, then an active frequency filter without distortion of phase. This cut the bass module by 100Hz with 24dB. Further a Mosfet power amplifier with 100Watt drive the 2 Fertin 30EX Model 7. Further he has a analog equivalizer for the Fertin 20EX Model 7. A 300B parallel single ended amplifier from DaVinciAudio drive the fullrange driver from Fertin.
This fantastic co-operation between Fertin-Acoustic and DaVinciAudio will bring new dimensions and emotions to your music.
Greetings from Switzerland
It was a pity that we didn't meet you at the CES .
DaVinciAudio Labs GmbH
Jolanda & Peter
FERTIN 20ex model 7- surroundless driver
Here's the next generation of drivers with no surround and
no voice-coil....bring your own liquid nitrogen.
http://www.acoust.rise.waseda.ac.jp/~mas-oka/ICA2004_yamasaki.pdf
Here's the next generation of drivers with no surround and
no voice-coil....bring your own liquid nitrogen.
http://www.acoust.rise.waseda.ac.jp/~mas-oka/ICA2004_yamasaki.pdf
From the CES, here is what Jonathan Valin says about the Fertin surroundless speakers associated with Da Vinci Electronics :
“One of the most fascinating rooms at CES: the Da Vinci Audio Labs suite, where I heard the $100k+ tall, multiway, dipole, floorstanding Da Vinci Virtù loudspeaker, driven by Da Vinci electronics and sourced by a superb Da Vinci Unison ’table. After an adjustment was made to the woofers on Day One, the sound was…phenomenal, with a level of inner detail, dynamic nuance and scale, timbral accuracy, and sheer you-are-there realism that matched anything else at the show (except for the M5). After I listened to the torture-test Attila Bozay recording, I wrote in my notepad: Incroyable! And it was incredible. I don’t know how real-world these very odd and odd-looking speakers are at this point. They appear to use a single full-range driver buttressed by two active woofers. All drivers are field coil, specially made for Da Vinci by FERTIN Acoustic with decoupled baskets and unique cones in an open-baffle enclosure made on one side of the same tonewood used in violin-making and on the other of a special constrained-layer damping material. All I can say is that the Virtùs sounded uncannily realistic on the LPs I brought with me to the show. Along with the Vandersteen 7s (and two others we will come to), this was the third-best sound of the show.”
“One of the most fascinating rooms at CES: the Da Vinci Audio Labs suite, where I heard the $100k+ tall, multiway, dipole, floorstanding Da Vinci Virtù loudspeaker, driven by Da Vinci electronics and sourced by a superb Da Vinci Unison ’table. After an adjustment was made to the woofers on Day One, the sound was…phenomenal, with a level of inner detail, dynamic nuance and scale, timbral accuracy, and sheer you-are-there realism that matched anything else at the show (except for the M5). After I listened to the torture-test Attila Bozay recording, I wrote in my notepad: Incroyable! And it was incredible. I don’t know how real-world these very odd and odd-looking speakers are at this point. They appear to use a single full-range driver buttressed by two active woofers. All drivers are field coil, specially made for Da Vinci by FERTIN Acoustic with decoupled baskets and unique cones in an open-baffle enclosure made on one side of the same tonewood used in violin-making and on the other of a special constrained-layer damping material. All I can say is that the Virtùs sounded uncannily realistic on the LPs I brought with me to the show. Along with the Vandersteen 7s (and two others we will come to), this was the third-best sound of the show.”
virtu
has anybody seen photos of the Virtu and can post them or provide links to the photos .
i only found one:
http://www.dagogo.com/Events/2009CES/Coverage-IV.html
interesing OB construction.
does anybody know more?
has anybody seen photos of the Virtu and can post them or provide links to the photos .
i only found one:
http://www.dagogo.com/Events/2009CES/Coverage-IV.html
interesing OB construction.
does anybody know more?
Here, I think we see the back .
... good opportunity to practice your french......
http://fr.cinenow.com/videos/1983-fertin-haut-parleurs-lectrodynamiques-sans-suspensions-2009
... good opportunity to practice your french......
http://fr.cinenow.com/videos/1983-fertin-haut-parleurs-lectrodynamiques-sans-suspensions-2009
lrntglls said:
Thanks to my high school learning of french, I understand more than 50% of what they say.
Fertin (i guess) says that the 20ex m7 price is around 1900 euros. Oh and yes at the end they show some of the back of the speakers.
They are decoupled with silicon and some special glues.
A bit difficult to clone, but not impossible 🙂
Hi, Telstar.
May be I could help you about French and Fertin speakers.
The EX means no permanent magnet but a field coil engine needing a 12 VDC power supply. You could vary a little bit the properties of the speakers in changing the current supplied.
The Model 7 means no surround : the cone moves almost free between the front ring and the engine gap, that gives a tremendous amount of informations compared to conventional surround speakers.
In many conventional speakers the surround has a mass in the order of that of the cone itself, moving in frequency phase shift with the cone. I have compared conventional 20EX Fertin speakers with the Model 7 of the same diameter : this is two different worlds.
I have different models at home.
- JA 16, which is not a full range but covers 150 Hz to 22 Khz. It is a Model 7, i. e. a surroundless driver.
- 20EX Model 7 which is a full range. Its best partner is a single end class A amp, 300B for instance or a Kronzilla if you could afford it.
It is the HP every audio fan should try starting with an infinite baffle. The cone is very light, therefore it is transparent to any sound that wants to come back front.
- 38EX Model 7 which is a bass driver that covers 14 Hz to 300Hz. Its resonance frequency is 17 Hz.
These Model 7 speakers and the full range particularly are not flat.
Corrections are necessary.
Passive or active analog corrections produce phase shift you could avoid with Digital Signal Processors (see DEQ2496 threads).
Fertin recommend to couple their speakers with DSP.
If you have a good DAC that has a volume control, don't use the DEQ DAC's and avoid the preamp before the amp.
You could try to clone the Da Vinci speakers, but may be this is not that simple.
Give a try to the drivers first, I am sure you will find your own way to use them.
Have fun.
May be I could help you about French and Fertin speakers.
The EX means no permanent magnet but a field coil engine needing a 12 VDC power supply. You could vary a little bit the properties of the speakers in changing the current supplied.
The Model 7 means no surround : the cone moves almost free between the front ring and the engine gap, that gives a tremendous amount of informations compared to conventional surround speakers.
In many conventional speakers the surround has a mass in the order of that of the cone itself, moving in frequency phase shift with the cone. I have compared conventional 20EX Fertin speakers with the Model 7 of the same diameter : this is two different worlds.
I have different models at home.
- JA 16, which is not a full range but covers 150 Hz to 22 Khz. It is a Model 7, i. e. a surroundless driver.
- 20EX Model 7 which is a full range. Its best partner is a single end class A amp, 300B for instance or a Kronzilla if you could afford it.
It is the HP every audio fan should try starting with an infinite baffle. The cone is very light, therefore it is transparent to any sound that wants to come back front.
- 38EX Model 7 which is a bass driver that covers 14 Hz to 300Hz. Its resonance frequency is 17 Hz.
These Model 7 speakers and the full range particularly are not flat.
Corrections are necessary.
Passive or active analog corrections produce phase shift you could avoid with Digital Signal Processors (see DEQ2496 threads).
Fertin recommend to couple their speakers with DSP.
If you have a good DAC that has a volume control, don't use the DEQ DAC's and avoid the preamp before the amp.
You could try to clone the Da Vinci speakers, but may be this is not that simple.
Give a try to the drivers first, I am sure you will find your own way to use them.
Have fun.
Cherel said:
I will have soon a SOTA DAC with volume control, and If i'll EQ, I'll do in digital, with a computer, before the DAC. i'm kind of alergic to opamps and all the crap that is in active crossovers.
Looks like they did a passive EQ by means of their complex baffle structure.
Oh, that's for sure. I'm already having fun thinking what to build 😀
To experiment without EQ, i think that the Supravox bicones are better candidates.
Re: virtu
thanks for the link ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
only these -
1870
lrntglls said:
thanks for the link ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hum4god said:
only these -
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
1870
Fertin 20ex Model7
Hello,
Here some pics from my Fertin Bafffe Plans.
I listen them for some time (burn-in) on a Single Ended 45 (1,5W) with good results. They are powered by two SLA-GEL Batt. 55Ah.
Here some pics.
Hello,
Here some pics from my Fertin Bafffe Plans.
I listen them for some time (burn-in) on a Single Ended 45 (1,5W) with good results. They are powered by two SLA-GEL Batt. 55Ah.
Here some pics.
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