To Charles
Amp was V - 5 x, boxes was a few types. Average output power was low, only in watts, but it I only estimate, 'cos I don't know sensitivity of speakers. Peak output power wasn't going to the clipping ( definitely ). I am not deaf fool - my listening criteria ( and not only my ) are really high, that's all.
Amp was V - 5 x, boxes was a few types. Average output power was low, only in watts, but it I only estimate, 'cos I don't know sensitivity of speakers. Peak output power wasn't going to the clipping ( definitely ). I am not deaf fool - my listening criteria ( and not only my ) are really high, that's all.
johnferrier,
I worked for them back in the 80's in a group that designed Seismic Oil Exploration Systems. This was TI original and first business and we were the world leaders in the field.
I worked for them back in the 80's in a group that designed Seismic Oil Exploration Systems. This was TI original and first business and we were the world leaders in the field.
Charles,
your reply to Pavel Dudek (Upupa Epops) is almost the same as to mine observations yesterday. I would disagree in the point of distortion audibility. THD of 0.1% indicates higher level of IMD distortion, that would not be appreciated for complex symphonic music. According to our research (Upupa's and mine) and listenning tests the THD should be lower than 0.01% across the whole audio range even for amplitudes close to the limitation, the same is for IMD. The low distortion is necessary, but not sufficient condition for the high quality well sounding amp, able to play symphonical music without stress, melting and colorization. The non-feedback design is unfortunately unable to fulfill the requirements mentioned, that is our experience and philosophy 😉.
Best regards,
Pavel Macura
your reply to Pavel Dudek (Upupa Epops) is almost the same as to mine observations yesterday. I would disagree in the point of distortion audibility. THD of 0.1% indicates higher level of IMD distortion, that would not be appreciated for complex symphonic music. According to our research (Upupa's and mine) and listenning tests the THD should be lower than 0.01% across the whole audio range even for amplitudes close to the limitation, the same is for IMD. The low distortion is necessary, but not sufficient condition for the high quality well sounding amp, able to play symphonical music without stress, melting and colorization. The non-feedback design is unfortunately unable to fulfill the requirements mentioned, that is our experience and philosophy 😉.
Best regards,
Pavel Macura
hey, boys, tell me your secret: what kind of speakers do you use? Or do you stick an electrode from amp output direct into the ear?
Charles Hansen said:
You seem to have missed an important part of Pavels very clear
statement, namely:
PMA said:
Charles Hansen said:
Well, the cover of the October 2002 issue of Stereophile says it's "THE BEST AMPLIFIER EVER!" 😀
se
Halcro
Yes, Halcro is the best sophisticated amp of the world. I know very well where ist begining of all parts of this amp and which ideas goes directly from Bruce Candy. As enough experienced technic I know, how many work it was, to " tune " it for this excelent results. I don't listen this amp, but I can imagine very well, how will be sounded - absolutely clear and on absolutely clear sound you are not accustomed. Instead clear amp you are again and again searching for " tubelike, musical, life friendly etc. .. " amp. More than five transistors in amp is wrong, feedback is wrong, modern solutions are wrong and I don't know what all is wrong. Good is quasicomplementary connections, best are tubes from the year '26, oil capacitors and no PCB. Sometimes I have feeling, that some guys here are pensioners and only remember on " gold old times ". Some don't belive, that is hearable low distortion - when you will be stand beside me and " chain " will be good, you will hear it the same as I hear, belive or not. Sometimes ofcourse come paradox situation : absence of distortion of amp disclose distortion of any part of chain, which was before hide below " nice " distortion of other amp and which must not be nice. How react in this case " normal listener " ? Amp is wrong ! When take any third amp, which have " nice distortion " too, result is clear. This method of testing is unfortunately quite normal and totaly wrong. Last question here was about speakers used for our testing : is clear, that for realy low distortion testing you can't use any s..t commercial box. Right objection is, that they have much bigger distortion than tested amp. If you imagine distortion of speakers such as noise and distortion of amp as corelated signal, human brain can both distinguish - it's same as pictures sended by Voyager - they was below noise too.
Yes, Halcro is the best sophisticated amp of the world. I know very well where ist begining of all parts of this amp and which ideas goes directly from Bruce Candy. As enough experienced technic I know, how many work it was, to " tune " it for this excelent results. I don't listen this amp, but I can imagine very well, how will be sounded - absolutely clear and on absolutely clear sound you are not accustomed. Instead clear amp you are again and again searching for " tubelike, musical, life friendly etc. .. " amp. More than five transistors in amp is wrong, feedback is wrong, modern solutions are wrong and I don't know what all is wrong. Good is quasicomplementary connections, best are tubes from the year '26, oil capacitors and no PCB. Sometimes I have feeling, that some guys here are pensioners and only remember on " gold old times ". Some don't belive, that is hearable low distortion - when you will be stand beside me and " chain " will be good, you will hear it the same as I hear, belive or not. Sometimes ofcourse come paradox situation : absence of distortion of amp disclose distortion of any part of chain, which was before hide below " nice " distortion of other amp and which must not be nice. How react in this case " normal listener " ? Amp is wrong ! When take any third amp, which have " nice distortion " too, result is clear. This method of testing is unfortunately quite normal and totaly wrong. Last question here was about speakers used for our testing : is clear, that for realy low distortion testing you can't use any s..t commercial box. Right objection is, that they have much bigger distortion than tested amp. If you imagine distortion of speakers such as noise and distortion of amp as corelated signal, human brain can both distinguish - it's same as pictures sended by Voyager - they was below noise too.
hey keep cool man,
i listen to a ZEN lite, lucky enough without PCB, because i don´t really like to make PCBs. And at the 0,1W i need with these speakers it has quiet low THD....
i listen to a ZEN lite, lucky enough without PCB, because i don´t really like to make PCBs. And at the 0,1W i need with these speakers it has quiet low THD....
german yes, precision nation?? you are czech, remember Hans Ledwinka, Tatra? less precision?
I don´t like PCB, because of the toxic materials to handle and because the material of PCB has no aesthetic appeal to me.
I don´t like PCB, because of the toxic materials to handle and because the material of PCB has no aesthetic appeal to me.
That's funny. A good friend spent a day listening to his CDs on a Halcro system with Duntech Speakers (don't know what the source was, though).
His verdict: very nice, but somehow unsatisfying emotionally. No engagement.
Dennis has good ears, and a technical background. His great uncle invented the pedal radio, used by the Flying Doctor in Outback Australia, back in the 1920s. This revolutionized outback life in this country, and later was adapted for 'School of the Air', for educational purposes.
Of course, YMMV, no association, etc etc...
I'm reminded of Pavel's comment:
I put it to you that the best amplifiers do add something, but let's not be killjoy about this, let's call it 'harmonic fullness'. There, I've said it, ahem!!
I do hope this sparks a bit of discussion......
Cheers,
Hugh
His verdict: very nice, but somehow unsatisfying emotionally. No engagement.
Dennis has good ears, and a technical background. His great uncle invented the pedal radio, used by the Flying Doctor in Outback Australia, back in the 1920s. This revolutionized outback life in this country, and later was adapted for 'School of the Air', for educational purposes.
Of course, YMMV, no association, etc etc...
I'm reminded of Pavel's comment:
I put it to you that the best amplifiers do add something, but let's not be killjoy about this, let's call it 'harmonic fullness'. There, I've said it, ahem!!
I do hope this sparks a bit of discussion......
Cheers,
Hugh
That's how my first wife described me.
Which Duntech speakers? And what sorts of musical genres does your friend use for evaluation? Pavel and Upupa's point struck home for me- I rarely use symphonic music as a reference simply because I don't hear it live often enough. I tend to use jazz ensembles, big bands, and acoustic string music because I hang out in jazz clubs and bluegrass jam sessions.
Heck, Stuart,
I dunno! He mentioned they were very big, and that he liked orchestral and jazz.
That was enough for me. His is only one opinion, of course.
Hugh
I dunno! He mentioned they were very big, and that he liked orchestral and jazz.
That was enough for me. His is only one opinion, of course.
Hugh
Well Hugh...this is why I'd give an arm and a leg for an old electrocompaniet 25w amp......it certainly wasn't "accurate" by Halcro standards but it was entertaining, and did wonderful things with the midband on down....the top end wasn't it's strong point....what do you think of this design...
http://users.otenet.gr/~athsam/electrocompaniet.htm
a worthwhile project?
Kevin
Ah, yes Kevin,
Per Abrahamsson's design. Seminal.
Question with lots of notice:
In audio, are we seeking:
1. A flawless photocopy
2. A tasteful, well composed photograph, or
3. A painting (oil or watercolor)?
Once you make a choice, a choice based on your preferred listening situation, you are informed, and capable of easily choosing your particular poison, be it PP SS/AB, SET, SE SS/A, etc, with suitable and appropriate speakers.
All this objective, zero distortion, feedback/non-feedback guff is giving me the creeps.......
Face it. We're all human. We like choices, varied presentations. If you like reality, so be it. If you enjoy tubby bass and coloured mids, no problem. I regard reality as an absence of drugs, and God knows, as humans we never have enough....
There, that should do it. Pavel, where are you when I need you?
Cheers,
Hugh
Per Abrahamsson's design. Seminal.
Question with lots of notice:
In audio, are we seeking:
1. A flawless photocopy
2. A tasteful, well composed photograph, or
3. A painting (oil or watercolor)?
Once you make a choice, a choice based on your preferred listening situation, you are informed, and capable of easily choosing your particular poison, be it PP SS/AB, SET, SE SS/A, etc, with suitable and appropriate speakers.
All this objective, zero distortion, feedback/non-feedback guff is giving me the creeps.......
Face it. We're all human. We like choices, varied presentations. If you like reality, so be it. If you enjoy tubby bass and coloured mids, no problem. I regard reality as an absence of drugs, and God knows, as humans we never have enough....
There, that should do it. Pavel, where are you when I need you?
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh
I'm not sure how to take that! and being typically polite you haven't given me too hard a slap ...LOL so don't take that the wrong way will you, I just want to learn a little while I'm here!
I understand everyone has a choice in this game and I worked in the industry around 20 years ago when in Britain, Linn and Naim still ruled the roost with most reviewers and dealers. It didn't stop us in the shop from looking for that extra 10% ...50% or whatever was missing from the performance, I had a multitude of equipment go through my hands and most products in amplification at that time did well if they didn't try to do too much. The A&R A60 being a classic example, it wasn't perfect by any stretch but it didn't show up poor ancillaries too badly and behaved with most mid price speakers. It was pleasant to listen to and communicated the heart of the music, a good budget amp.
The "electro" communicated in a way that I still find most SS amps lacking (and the tubes that hint at some of it lack in unnacceptable ways also), it made you grin with it's cheeky rendition of basslines and seduced you with it's articulation of vocals...it's clarity was also quite startling too, on the other hand finding a pre-amp that did it justice was a nightmare (but I digress....can we say a little unrefined at the top)....
Anyhow, looking at the topology (nothing too exceptional I admit)and after picking Terje's brains on this matter I thought it might be a candidate for using better semiconductors and bringing it up to date and seeing if I can possibly finish off what it does well and trying to eliminate the things it does badly.
give it a higher imput impedance, get rid of the parallel output devices and also give it some better heatsinking are all thoughts I have rattling around in my head...I was just looking for maybe a little nudge in the right direction.
I will say this though, in all the time I have been involved in the reproduction of music in the home there hasn't been much to really impress me and I'd put one of these against similar offerings around today and I think a few people would be surprised at just how good it is. Likewise with the original Sugden A21 integrated.......a good one is stunning 🙂
thanks and kindest regards
Kevin
I'm not sure how to take that! and being typically polite you haven't given me too hard a slap ...LOL so don't take that the wrong way will you, I just want to learn a little while I'm here!
I understand everyone has a choice in this game and I worked in the industry around 20 years ago when in Britain, Linn and Naim still ruled the roost with most reviewers and dealers. It didn't stop us in the shop from looking for that extra 10% ...50% or whatever was missing from the performance, I had a multitude of equipment go through my hands and most products in amplification at that time did well if they didn't try to do too much. The A&R A60 being a classic example, it wasn't perfect by any stretch but it didn't show up poor ancillaries too badly and behaved with most mid price speakers. It was pleasant to listen to and communicated the heart of the music, a good budget amp.
The "electro" communicated in a way that I still find most SS amps lacking (and the tubes that hint at some of it lack in unnacceptable ways also), it made you grin with it's cheeky rendition of basslines and seduced you with it's articulation of vocals...it's clarity was also quite startling too, on the other hand finding a pre-amp that did it justice was a nightmare (but I digress....can we say a little unrefined at the top)....
Anyhow, looking at the topology (nothing too exceptional I admit)and after picking Terje's brains on this matter I thought it might be a candidate for using better semiconductors and bringing it up to date and seeing if I can possibly finish off what it does well and trying to eliminate the things it does badly.
give it a higher imput impedance, get rid of the parallel output devices and also give it some better heatsinking are all thoughts I have rattling around in my head...I was just looking for maybe a little nudge in the right direction.
I will say this though, in all the time I have been involved in the reproduction of music in the home there hasn't been much to really impress me and I'd put one of these against similar offerings around today and I think a few people would be surprised at just how good it is. Likewise with the original Sugden A21 integrated.......a good one is stunning 🙂
thanks and kindest regards
Kevin
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