Hi there,
I've recently built myself a set of MJKs MLTL speakers with the fe167e. I did this to see if fullrangers were my thing. They are awesome for sparse things such as vocals with accoustic instruments or light jazz but seem a little lacking in impact on things such as accoustic kick drum transients, it's all a bit flat.
I'd like this to work or is that the limitation of smallish FR drivers ?
I've played around with some DSP EQ (I use a squeezebox as my source, FLAC into a DAC and then a Naim amp) to set the BSC up but when I shelve EQ up the bass to 400Hz enough of rock the accoustic stuff doesn't seem real enough, it kinda sucks the life out of it.
I'm also not happy with the cabinets I built as I kinda rushed them together so I'm looking at making something a little more adventurous that I can finish properly.
I've been tempted by the BIB but I don't think I can corner load them effectively as one way they would be too far apart and the other too close together with regards to the seating position.
Lately I've been looking at the spawn family on frugal-horn.com, the Hiro and Chang with the curves look very nice.
I'm happy to build anything that sounds right, so I guess I'm after advice on what would suit my room best.
The room is an area of roughly 6m x 4m with the couch on the long wall, behind the couch is a low wall (kitchen bench open to lounge) to another room of 3m x 6m ish. Hard to explain, ASCII follows 🙂... x = speakers
==============|
|...x.............x.....|
|........................|
........couch.........|
========..........|
.........................|
........kitchen.......|
|........................|
==============|
I expect I'm turning up the wick on the accoustic stuff to get the impact and when I move to the heavier stuff it is way too hot in the upper mids.
Would the Hiro give me a little more dynamic impact lower down and still sound right on the sparse emotional stuff ?
Does it need BSC still ? Am I being silly not using a Zobel and real BSC circuit ? (rather than DSP) Is it something to with the way my amp handles the reactive loading causing a rise in the mids under load ? Would adding a Zobel and real BSC make all the difference ?
Sorry if this is a bit long-winded just wanted to give enough information. Have I ?
Appreciate any help ! I do like the look of the Hiro and if the Mrs can handle the MJK speakers she'll be fine with bigger ones 🙂
FYI: lurked around a bit for a few months, first post, please be gentle if I'm doing something dumb.
Cheers,
Sedge.
I've recently built myself a set of MJKs MLTL speakers with the fe167e. I did this to see if fullrangers were my thing. They are awesome for sparse things such as vocals with accoustic instruments or light jazz but seem a little lacking in impact on things such as accoustic kick drum transients, it's all a bit flat.
I'd like this to work or is that the limitation of smallish FR drivers ?
I've played around with some DSP EQ (I use a squeezebox as my source, FLAC into a DAC and then a Naim amp) to set the BSC up but when I shelve EQ up the bass to 400Hz enough of rock the accoustic stuff doesn't seem real enough, it kinda sucks the life out of it.
I'm also not happy with the cabinets I built as I kinda rushed them together so I'm looking at making something a little more adventurous that I can finish properly.
I've been tempted by the BIB but I don't think I can corner load them effectively as one way they would be too far apart and the other too close together with regards to the seating position.
Lately I've been looking at the spawn family on frugal-horn.com, the Hiro and Chang with the curves look very nice.
I'm happy to build anything that sounds right, so I guess I'm after advice on what would suit my room best.
The room is an area of roughly 6m x 4m with the couch on the long wall, behind the couch is a low wall (kitchen bench open to lounge) to another room of 3m x 6m ish. Hard to explain, ASCII follows 🙂... x = speakers
==============|
|...x.............x.....|
|........................|
........couch.........|
========..........|
.........................|
........kitchen.......|
|........................|
==============|
I expect I'm turning up the wick on the accoustic stuff to get the impact and when I move to the heavier stuff it is way too hot in the upper mids.
Would the Hiro give me a little more dynamic impact lower down and still sound right on the sparse emotional stuff ?
Does it need BSC still ? Am I being silly not using a Zobel and real BSC circuit ? (rather than DSP) Is it something to with the way my amp handles the reactive loading causing a rise in the mids under load ? Would adding a Zobel and real BSC make all the difference ?
Sorry if this is a bit long-winded just wanted to give enough information. Have I ?
Appreciate any help ! I do like the look of the Hiro and if the Mrs can handle the MJK speakers she'll be fine with bigger ones 🙂
FYI: lurked around a bit for a few months, first post, please be gentle if I'm doing something dumb.
Cheers,
Sedge.
You're not doing anything dumb Sedge. And this is a friendly place -we all help each other here. That's what it's all about. 🙂
There are a few issues at work here I suspect. First up we need to know exactly which cabinet those drivers are mounted in? Is it the tapered ML TQWT? Martin hasn't done a straight MLTL for these units. If it's in one designed for other drivers, the tuning's probably off.
To be honest, I think you're probably asking a bit much of a fairly small cone -they just can't shift air like a larger driver, and lifting everything below 400Hz is a huge ask -the drivers will be well beyond linear excursion, & distorting badly in the LF (don't panic -it won't cause them any damage, but it won't do sonics any favours). That's where the life from your music is going. Your amp isn't ideal either -Naim amps aren't automatically a great match to FR units, though there are things we can do to compensate for that. More of that in a minute.
OK, short of you buying a larger pair of drivers, we need to try & help you make the most of what you already have. As you obviously like dynamics (you wouldn't have a Naim amp if you didn't) then abandoning the MLTL and shifting to horn loading will probably be the best bet.
A couple of BIBs, shoved back against a rear wall (corners are useful, but not essential) should give you that. They're bass champs -the late Terry Cain, who brought the box to wide attention, commented that his original pair, with 5 1/4in units gave LF output like 15in paper cones. He's not kidding either. Best bass you're likely to get from an FR driver. There's something about big TQWT grunt that gives people an evil grin. Output in the mid 30Hz regions, no worries, & usable to 30. Hiro would also probably be a decent option for you. It won't go as low as the BIB (usable to ~50Hz or so), but if anything, it should have even better dynamics across the midbass regions. Neither require BSC -the cabinets themselves compensate for the drop-off by providing extra gain. If you still find the LF a touch weak, due to your amp not compensating for the driver's natural drop-off, add a small resistor in series with the driver. 2-3ohms should do it.
Hope some of that is useful
Scott
There are a few issues at work here I suspect. First up we need to know exactly which cabinet those drivers are mounted in? Is it the tapered ML TQWT? Martin hasn't done a straight MLTL for these units. If it's in one designed for other drivers, the tuning's probably off.
To be honest, I think you're probably asking a bit much of a fairly small cone -they just can't shift air like a larger driver, and lifting everything below 400Hz is a huge ask -the drivers will be well beyond linear excursion, & distorting badly in the LF (don't panic -it won't cause them any damage, but it won't do sonics any favours). That's where the life from your music is going. Your amp isn't ideal either -Naim amps aren't automatically a great match to FR units, though there are things we can do to compensate for that. More of that in a minute.
OK, short of you buying a larger pair of drivers, we need to try & help you make the most of what you already have. As you obviously like dynamics (you wouldn't have a Naim amp if you didn't) then abandoning the MLTL and shifting to horn loading will probably be the best bet.
A couple of BIBs, shoved back against a rear wall (corners are useful, but not essential) should give you that. They're bass champs -the late Terry Cain, who brought the box to wide attention, commented that his original pair, with 5 1/4in units gave LF output like 15in paper cones. He's not kidding either. Best bass you're likely to get from an FR driver. There's something about big TQWT grunt that gives people an evil grin. Output in the mid 30Hz regions, no worries, & usable to 30. Hiro would also probably be a decent option for you. It won't go as low as the BIB (usable to ~50Hz or so), but if anything, it should have even better dynamics across the midbass regions. Neither require BSC -the cabinets themselves compensate for the drop-off by providing extra gain. If you still find the LF a touch weak, due to your amp not compensating for the driver's natural drop-off, add a small resistor in series with the driver. 2-3ohms should do it.
Hope some of that is useful
Scott
Scottmoose said:
Greets!
Agreed.
Well, an optimum BLH will perform audibly better and extend much lower, but the size, build complexity and need to supplement it with a super tweeter to off-set the horn's extremely high damping that causes HF roll-off (tail wagging the dog, acoustically speaking) pretty much negates it for a typical hifi app unless your listening room is a small auditorium/cinema/theater.
FYI, the BIB is a horn since it expands towards the mouth, while a tapered (aka tuned) quarter wave tube (TQWT) is a reverse tapered horn, ergo a mass loaded pipe.
And add a by-pass cap in parallel with the resistor if it makes the extreme HF too 'dull'/rolled off.
GM
Drat. Slip of the tongue / brain / keyboard. I remember you mentioning that to me before. Sorry Greg.
Good point re the cap. (Roughly) what value would you suggest?
Scott
Good point re the cap. (Roughly) what value would you suggest?
Scott
You've gotten some good advice, but let me make a further suggestion:
Have you considered adding a sub? I love my little Metronomes, but I assumed going in that I'd still want to use a sub. I've been using subs since the early '80s, so I don't have any bias against them. I don't know how one could expect a small driver in cabinet that fits into an average room to make the low bass notes that an organ creates w/ a pipe 32 ft. long.
I think many folks hold subs in ill repute because of the way some use (abuse) them--e.g. home theater set-ups designed to shake paint off walls, rather than produce balanced music. Or subs too small & too poorly made to do anything but make ulgy little thumps.
Just a thought.
Cheers, Jim
Have you considered adding a sub? I love my little Metronomes, but I assumed going in that I'd still want to use a sub. I've been using subs since the early '80s, so I don't have any bias against them. I don't know how one could expect a small driver in cabinet that fits into an average room to make the low bass notes that an organ creates w/ a pipe 32 ft. long.
I think many folks hold subs in ill repute because of the way some use (abuse) them--e.g. home theater set-ups designed to shake paint off walls, rather than produce balanced music. Or subs too small & too poorly made to do anything but make ulgy little thumps.
Just a thought.
Cheers, Jim
Scottmoose said:
Wait till you get to be my age when it's ~ a constant condition, aka 'senior moment'. 🙁
Same as a nominally 8 ohm compression horn, typically 0.1 - 1.0 UF for a nominally 8 ohm driver, so some experimentation will be required with cheap caps before buying expensive PIO/whatever your cap construction preference is.
Jim Shearer said:
Greets!
I agree completely! I built my first one in the summer of '70 after reading a Popular Electronics DIY article and once dialed in as best I could with limited measurements I couldn't believe how much better the whole system sounded, and this with a compression horn loaded one from ~70 Hz - up, so wasn't surprised at the tremendous improvement it was to the smaller horn/mid-woofer and FR driver speakers I typically built for friends, etc..
Really, when it's time to 'get real'/'go live', 'FR' drivers need at least a wide BW HE woofer (or two/channel) to support it below their ~flat BW and a sub below that if not corner loaded in a ~16 Hz EBS alignment or corner horn if truly wide BW music or HT special effects reproduction is desired.
GM
Hi all,
Thanks for the quick replies ! Wasn't expecting that.
Yes, I built a pair of Martin Kings tapered ML TQWT designs.
I do have 2 subs (sorry, should have mentioned them) home built NHT1259s in large sealed cabs next to each of the speakers. Had them for 10 years, my Mrs is used to the size of them 🙂
I usually run them crossed at 12Db/oct 50Hz. Even with these on the leading edge of the upper bass is flat on the ML TQWT without 6Db+ of EQ. If I cross the subs higher it all becomes a little disjointed ?
I run the mains full range as I don't like the crossover in line for the top end. It's a cheap crossover and 50Hz down is for effect/ambience/power rather than fidelity.
It's a little hard to explain again 🙁
I think what I'm after is something flat to ~50Hz that needs no sensitivity sapping BSC or inline components. My theory being that less stuff in line the closer to the music I'll get.
Saying that, they really are fantastic at doing female vocals the way they are.
BIB it is then 🙂
I was close to building these to start with, was worried about the corner loading and only had enough decent ply for the ML TQWT. I also wasn't sure that FRs would do the job so it was a bit of a gamble getting drivers half way round the world. I'm sold though, very cool speakers.
Thanks for all the help, much appreciated 🙂
Cheers,
Sedge.
Thanks for the quick replies ! Wasn't expecting that.
Yes, I built a pair of Martin Kings tapered ML TQWT designs.
I do have 2 subs (sorry, should have mentioned them) home built NHT1259s in large sealed cabs next to each of the speakers. Had them for 10 years, my Mrs is used to the size of them 🙂
I usually run them crossed at 12Db/oct 50Hz. Even with these on the leading edge of the upper bass is flat on the ML TQWT without 6Db+ of EQ. If I cross the subs higher it all becomes a little disjointed ?
I run the mains full range as I don't like the crossover in line for the top end. It's a cheap crossover and 50Hz down is for effect/ambience/power rather than fidelity.
It's a little hard to explain again 🙁
I think what I'm after is something flat to ~50Hz that needs no sensitivity sapping BSC or inline components. My theory being that less stuff in line the closer to the music I'll get.
Saying that, they really are fantastic at doing female vocals the way they are.
BIB it is then 🙂
I was close to building these to start with, was worried about the corner loading and only had enough decent ply for the ML TQWT. I also wasn't sure that FRs would do the job so it was a bit of a gamble getting drivers half way round the world. I'm sold though, very cool speakers.
Thanks for all the help, much appreciated 🙂
Cheers,
Sedge.
OK, you ideally need dimensons like this (the ones I did over on Zillaspeak are a bit small), if you can stretch to it.
Cabinet height 70in for a total of a 138in line. Zdriver 30in. 10in wide x 14.375in deep, plus the thickness of the internal baffle. All dimensions internal.
Wonder what one would sound like made from CRS? About 12ga should do it I reckon.
Cabinet height 70in for a total of a 138in line. Zdriver 30in. 10in wide x 14.375in deep, plus the thickness of the internal baffle. All dimensions internal.
Wonder what one would sound like made from CRS? About 12ga should do it I reckon.
Hi there !
ScottMoose... I've built a set of BIBs to your measurements. Very nice, lots more impact now 🙂
I probably need to fiddle with the stuffing and tweak the driver basket with goop a little to help attenuate the high mid forward sound, plenty of HF detail coming through, perhaps a phase plug might help me too ?
I should stop looking at the internet, it makes me want to keep worrying at the driver.
I think I'll RTA the response in room and see where I go from there, just need to get a moment when the Mrs and co aren't around.
Thanks for the help, I'll post a couple of pics once I've finished with them (need to add a plinth and a couple of other bits to tidy them up)
I should have built these the first time around.
Cheers for the help everyone,
Sedge.
ScottMoose... I've built a set of BIBs to your measurements. Very nice, lots more impact now 🙂
I probably need to fiddle with the stuffing and tweak the driver basket with goop a little to help attenuate the high mid forward sound, plenty of HF detail coming through, perhaps a phase plug might help me too ?
I should stop looking at the internet, it makes me want to keep worrying at the driver.
I think I'll RTA the response in room and see where I go from there, just need to get a moment when the Mrs and co aren't around.
Thanks for the help, I'll post a couple of pics once I've finished with them (need to add a plinth and a couple of other bits to tidy them up)
I should have built these the first time around.
Cheers for the help everyone,
Sedge.
Plugs. The cabinet won't be having much of an effect up in the midrange. Get the magnet, frame & basket damped -I'm looking into some other mods for my own 167s too.
I too have been lurking around looking for something to replace my ML-TL FE167Es. They sound okay but I want a bigger sounding speaker that still disappears, not to mention getting rid of the power robbing BCS circuitry for my .8W 6EM7 amp.
Now that you have built these and were surprised by them, my itch to build them is getting greater. Few questions: what kind of wood did you use, are your speakers already broken in, do the speakers disappear when listening?
FWIW, damping the frame and basket does work. Not sure about adding a plug any other "one way modifications". I'll let the experts do that and report back on what works and what doesn't. I only have one pair to my name...
😀
Now that you have built these and were surprised by them, my itch to build them is getting greater. Few questions: what kind of wood did you use, are your speakers already broken in, do the speakers disappear when listening?
FWIW, damping the frame and basket does work. Not sure about adding a plug any other "one way modifications". I'll let the experts do that and report back on what works and what doesn't. I only have one pair to my name...
😀Hi RockysDad,
I've used MDF for this build, I know it's not a great thing for speakers but it's cheap over here.
High grade ply isn't unfortunately, the nice stuff is imported and NZ is pretty much the last bus stop at the end of the world.
Also, after the last speakers the Mrs is carefully watching what I spend on them, every dollar spent is a new pair of shoes for her... I'm kidding (I hope)
I can always re-house them later as this was a mule build to see how they sounded, probably not though as they sound just about right as is.
I wouldn't say surprised by them, pleasantly satisfied would be a better description 🙂
My speakers should be broken in by now, I don't know how you tell ? >200 hours anyway.
Do they disappear ? Bear in mind I've only had them in the lounge since last night and I haven't played with positioning, I just plonked them against the wall.
Yes... And rarely no... I don't know how to describe it, great ambience, nice presentation and actual bass. In normal operation they are good at disapearing.
However, I think I'm occasionally exciting a resonance in the driver itself, this tends to box the sound briefly. It's distracting anyway. I'm picky and it is pretty rare. The ML TQWTs did this to a lesser extent so maybe it's something in the source rather than the speakers ? Or perhaps they were better stuffed to stop the back wave hitting the cone ?
The ML TQWTs give a different presentation, more natural mid range, which could be due to a more controlled cone or just because there is less bass. Actually, I can't be sure it was better, maybe different would be the word.
Having had both the ML TQWTs and these I would definitely opt for the BIBs, I like a bit more oomph in the music, they seem to cup the vocals a (very) little at the moment, but the overall impression for me is a warmer gruntier sound.
One thing that is different is the ply .vs. MDF thing, I expect the ply would be more like an instrument and the MDF damp more.
Or could it be that ply being more porous to sound actually disperses better sound whereas MDF reflects ? I would imagine ply to have an infintely variable absorption/dispersion pattern due it's construction and MDF being more homogenised has a singular effect on the sound. Heh heh, that should get the wood .vs. MDF guys going 🙂
I'll report back once I've tried tweaking the stuffing and gooped the driver, I'm sure I can clean up any of the issues above.
Next thing to try after this will be a diffraction baffle, icing on the cake
Ah... It's a bit of a novel. Does it help ?
Cheers,
Sedge.
I've used MDF for this build, I know it's not a great thing for speakers but it's cheap over here.
High grade ply isn't unfortunately, the nice stuff is imported and NZ is pretty much the last bus stop at the end of the world.
Also, after the last speakers the Mrs is carefully watching what I spend on them, every dollar spent is a new pair of shoes for her... I'm kidding (I hope)
I can always re-house them later as this was a mule build to see how they sounded, probably not though as they sound just about right as is.
I wouldn't say surprised by them, pleasantly satisfied would be a better description 🙂
My speakers should be broken in by now, I don't know how you tell ? >200 hours anyway.
Do they disappear ? Bear in mind I've only had them in the lounge since last night and I haven't played with positioning, I just plonked them against the wall.
Yes... And rarely no... I don't know how to describe it, great ambience, nice presentation and actual bass. In normal operation they are good at disapearing.
However, I think I'm occasionally exciting a resonance in the driver itself, this tends to box the sound briefly. It's distracting anyway. I'm picky and it is pretty rare. The ML TQWTs did this to a lesser extent so maybe it's something in the source rather than the speakers ? Or perhaps they were better stuffed to stop the back wave hitting the cone ?
The ML TQWTs give a different presentation, more natural mid range, which could be due to a more controlled cone or just because there is less bass. Actually, I can't be sure it was better, maybe different would be the word.
Having had both the ML TQWTs and these I would definitely opt for the BIBs, I like a bit more oomph in the music, they seem to cup the vocals a (very) little at the moment, but the overall impression for me is a warmer gruntier sound.
One thing that is different is the ply .vs. MDF thing, I expect the ply would be more like an instrument and the MDF damp more.
Or could it be that ply being more porous to sound actually disperses better sound whereas MDF reflects ? I would imagine ply to have an infintely variable absorption/dispersion pattern due it's construction and MDF being more homogenised has a singular effect on the sound. Heh heh, that should get the wood .vs. MDF guys going 🙂
I'll report back once I've tried tweaking the stuffing and gooped the driver, I'm sure I can clean up any of the issues above.
Next thing to try after this will be a diffraction baffle, icing on the cake
Ah... It's a bit of a novel. Does it help ?
Cheers,
Sedge.
Hi Sedge, keep the latest updates coming. It give me inspiration to go out and build a pair. A "warmer gruntier sound" is music to my ears...
Anyways, I'm in the same boat as you with the wifey watching what I spend but right now she's ahead of me and I wouldn't feel too bad if a blow a few bucks on wood. My current ML-TLs are made of MDF but I was thinking of splurging on some nice ply for my next build.
Looking forward to all your tweaking reports trying to get things to sound the way you want it. You have a lot of ideas to try out. Its when you run out of ideas, then the panic starts creeping in.
Good luck...
Anyways, I'm in the same boat as you with the wifey watching what I spend but right now she's ahead of me and I wouldn't feel too bad if a blow a few bucks on wood. My current ML-TLs are made of MDF but I was thinking of splurging on some nice ply for my next build.
Looking forward to all your tweaking reports trying to get things to sound the way you want it. You have a lot of ideas to try out. Its when you run out of ideas, then the panic starts creeping in.
Good luck...
sedge1 said:
Keep in mind that high frequency resonces are much harder to excite than LF. (inversly proportional to the square of the frequency)
The plywood in this measurement shows better damping at frequencies below 1000 Hz, and not quite as good above where little energy exists to excite it.
dave
Attachments
I wasn't sure if anyone would bite on that 😉
Am I right in thinking that what you are saying is that an upper mid resonance I think I'm hearing is not likely to be caused by the cabinet material in this case ? The cabinet material being better able to damp high frequency vibrations following the inversly proportional to the square of the frequency rule ?
This doesn't stop me looking at other things such as damping the basket/magnet etc but does make me feel a lot better about using MDF 🙂
Should I be looking at the more controlled diffraction baffle as well ? I have a feeling this will help with soundstaging/ambience, imaging is fine as is.
I'm a bit new to making speakers but I really like getting the sound I'm getting out of these little drivers.
Cheers,
Sedge.
Am I right in thinking that what you are saying is that an upper mid resonance I think I'm hearing is not likely to be caused by the cabinet material in this case ? The cabinet material being better able to damp high frequency vibrations following the inversly proportional to the square of the frequency rule ?
This doesn't stop me looking at other things such as damping the basket/magnet etc but does make me feel a lot better about using MDF 🙂
Should I be looking at the more controlled diffraction baffle as well ? I have a feeling this will help with soundstaging/ambience, imaging is fine as is.
I'm a bit new to making speakers but I really like getting the sound I'm getting out of these little drivers.
Cheers,
Sedge.
Could be. MDF's problem is it stores energy & then lets it go in about the most inconvenient place possible. It depends on the frequency at which your problem is occuring. Most people tend to err toward the extremes, believing what they hear is higher (or lower) in frequency than is actually the case. Try running a few test tones to find out where said annoyance is located.
Did you line the baffle directly behind the driver? That should stop any reflections back through the cone. Basket, magnet & frame damping also help.
Did you line the baffle directly behind the driver? That should stop any reflections back through the cone. Basket, magnet & frame damping also help.
I spent a bit of time positioning the speakers properly and things have cleared up a lot, bit too far apart before (by about a metre 😉 )
Today I router rounded the edges of the boxes slightly, vinyl wrapped the MDF (thick fake grained leather) and made up a couple of plinths for the boxes.
I'm going to blutack the back of the drivers tomorrow and see how that goes. I think maybe the polyfill I'm using for damping may not be the best, I've got some carpet underlay to use, so I'll try that too.
Not far off now 🙂 Very impressed tonight.
Sedge.
Today I router rounded the edges of the boxes slightly, vinyl wrapped the MDF (thick fake grained leather) and made up a couple of plinths for the boxes.
I'm going to blutack the back of the drivers tomorrow and see how that goes. I think maybe the polyfill I'm using for damping may not be the best, I've got some carpet underlay to use, so I'll try that too.
Not far off now 🙂 Very impressed tonight.
Sedge.
That's what I like to hear... 🙂
Any chance of some pictures? I like the idea of the vinyl / faux leather wrap... might have to try that myself some time.
Any chance of some pictures? I like the idea of the vinyl / faux leather wrap... might have to try that myself some time.
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