Not really. For instance, if there is useful content at -100dB, you're going to have a hard time hearing it when played back at 80dB no matter how good the amp is. In fact if an amp did make it audible, then that is probably a sign that thee is something wrong with the amp.analog_sa said:
I will have to agree with Mr. DJK about the Altec 9440 amplifier.
Probably the best sounding amplifier I have ever heard or owned.
With a few minor modifications it will blow away many amplifiers costing mega bucks.
My second choice is the South West Tech 250 watt Tigersarus. Very good sounding amplifier. Much better than the SAE 2400 or the SAE line period. I have (2 mono blocks with original outputs).
Too bad Bongorno couldn't have designed the SAE this way.
Any power amplifier with a op amp in the front end sounds like crap. This rules out QSC and the like.
Nelson Pass A40 with a modified output stage(Triple darlington) with (bipolar outputs) sounded very good. Sorry, I don't like mosfets.
Probably the best sounding amplifier I have ever heard or owned.
With a few minor modifications it will blow away many amplifiers costing mega bucks.
My second choice is the South West Tech 250 watt Tigersarus. Very good sounding amplifier. Much better than the SAE 2400 or the SAE line period. I have (2 mono blocks with original outputs).
Too bad Bongorno couldn't have designed the SAE this way.
Any power amplifier with a op amp in the front end sounds like crap. This rules out QSC and the like.
Nelson Pass A40 with a modified output stage(Triple darlington) with (bipolar outputs) sounded very good. Sorry, I don't like mosfets.
The amount of "slam" that an amplifier can provide for a large crescendo is the same as "dynamic reserve". I agree with burned fingers on the Tigersaurous which is a very good amp, I built a pair badk when they came out and on SAE equipment. Actually the SAE MK 31B was the best sounding of the lot from SAE. AB Systems my be like the Leach but they blow big time as a company..... just wait till you need some documentation or service from them. Their 6 channel amps are a disaster. A number of cinemas use them and they fail like clockwork.
Mark
The SAE MK31B is a good sounding amplifier. The ones I have come across seem to blow up, typical of the SAE and GAS designs.
I had a friend that had a MK 31B for many years driving IMF's and he never had a problem with it. The MK 31 that I owned while I was in High School was very unstable, ran very hot but it never self destructed on me. I think the Motorola semis used back then were pretty fragile though. I traded that in on a Phase Linear 400.... Indeed I was the first kid on the block with a 200 wpc power amp... 1973! The Phase linear blew several times but never damaging a speaker when it did. After graduating fomr H.S. I went to work for a local Hi-Fi shop service center and was able to repair it myself as we were a warranty station for Phase Linear. Since then I've owned over a hundred differnt power amp/ preamp combinations. I don't buy new equipment any longer, I just build what ever seems interesting to me.
Mark
Mark
what has fletcher - munson to do with amp design? Or are the amps you're listening to sounded to compensate?
I built the "Plastic Tiger" and the "Tigersaurus" from SWTPC in the 1970's -- they sounded awful. The designs were published in Popular Electronics.
I hate to admit it, but my favorite amplifier sits in a 1960's era Madison Fielding "440 Series Stereophonic Receiver" -- vacuum state. It's just "pleasing" not necessarily "thrilling".
I hate to admit it, but my favorite amplifier sits in a 1960's era Madison Fielding "440 Series Stereophonic Receiver" -- vacuum state. It's just "pleasing" not necessarily "thrilling".
Quote:
I built the "Plastic Tiger" and the "Tigersaurus" from SWTPC in the 1970's -- they sounded awful. The designs were published in Popular Electronics.
You would be the first person I have ever heard say the Tigersaurus sounded bad. Fully complimentary designs sound good for the most part. Maybe there was a mistake in the construction.
I built the "Plastic Tiger" and the "Tigersaurus" from SWTPC in the 1970's -- they sounded awful. The designs were published in Popular Electronics.
You would be the first person I have ever heard say the Tigersaurus sounded bad. Fully complimentary designs sound good for the most part. Maybe there was a mistake in the construction.
burnedfingers said:
I will refer you to the 2/1980 issue of Audio Amateur in which Walt Jung trashed the performance of the Tigersaurus --
My Tigger destroyed itself which was the case with many of these amps.
The idea that you have to play a system loud to hear detail is absurd. Mark is correct--this is a sure sign of a low-fi system.
On the face of it, the statement that you can't hear -100dB details at 80dB volume would seem to be persuasive. On examination, however, it is revealed to be sophistry. All I can suggest is to learn what decibels are and a bit about human hearing works.
Cerwin Vega used to have a sales slogan: Loud is good as long as it's clean. Oh, I thought that was great. Yeah! Turn it up! Then I learned the difference between loud and high fidelity and I turned it down. Way, way down. I thought I had detail. Wrong. I thought I had high fidelity. Wrong. I thought I had a good system. Really wrong!
The thing that turned me around was the least likely component...I needed a new turntable and ended up buying a Linn Sondek. I was only partly persuaded by the loss of information theory presented by the salesman, and in hindsight I'm not really sure what tipped the scales. But bought it, I did. The next day I went back to the store, seized the saleman by the shoulders and started ranting about all the things I'd never heard before. He just looked at me patiently and said,"Yes, I know. That's what I've been trying to tell you."
I then set out to revamp the rest of my system.
Grey
On the face of it, the statement that you can't hear -100dB details at 80dB volume would seem to be persuasive. On examination, however, it is revealed to be sophistry. All I can suggest is to learn what decibels are and a bit about human hearing works.
Cerwin Vega used to have a sales slogan: Loud is good as long as it's clean. Oh, I thought that was great. Yeah! Turn it up! Then I learned the difference between loud and high fidelity and I turned it down. Way, way down. I thought I had detail. Wrong. I thought I had high fidelity. Wrong. I thought I had a good system. Really wrong!
The thing that turned me around was the least likely component...I needed a new turntable and ended up buying a Linn Sondek. I was only partly persuaded by the loss of information theory presented by the salesman, and in hindsight I'm not really sure what tipped the scales. But bought it, I did. The next day I went back to the store, seized the saleman by the shoulders and started ranting about all the things I'd never heard before. He just looked at me patiently and said,"Yes, I know. That's what I've been trying to tell you."
I then set out to revamp the rest of my system.
Grey
Favorite Solid state Amplifier?
I prefer high powered amplifiers, ideally more is better with inaudible
distortion near full power. Right now I'm testing an array with
midranges wired for 2 ohms and the amplifier I'm using is rated
for 1200w/ch @ 2ohms. I did some bridged mono tests and like
it, about 2400w into those speakers. The tweeters are being driven by
an amplifier rated for 200w/ch but tweeters don't consume much power
so the amplifier is happy with the 0.8 ohm load it sees.
Least?
Any low powered amplifier.
As you can see, I'm a different type of listener :devilr
I prefer high powered amplifiers, ideally more is better with inaudible
distortion near full power. Right now I'm testing an array with
midranges wired for 2 ohms and the amplifier I'm using is rated
for 1200w/ch @ 2ohms. I did some bridged mono tests and like
it, about 2400w into those speakers. The tweeters are being driven by
an amplifier rated for 200w/ch but tweeters don't consume much power
so the amplifier is happy with the 0.8 ohm load it sees.
Least?
Any low powered amplifier.
As you can see, I'm a different type of listener :devilr
thylantyr said:
any audible difference with that "pro audio QSC" on the midranges or when you use your Nelson Pass (and therefor UBER) Adcom 555II??? 😉 😉
Mark A. Gulbrandsen said:
no offense but I could make a fantastic argument that that "slam" is solely the function of the speakers/enclosure/room vs. "what kind of power is my power"
😉
😀
Mark A. Gulbrandsen said:
Teenybopper amps? Do what?
Peavey amps such as CS-800s are perfectly ok if biamped. They do well below about 1 kHz (avoid them above that) and preferably below about 400 Hz, especially with the compression circuit kicked in to keep 'em from clipping.
They're not nearly so nice used full range, though.
Francois.
You could argue all you want but I would simply say that the VK-60 has "my kind" of power. The fact that it had the ability to give any "slam" to my Dynaudios is quite amazing. I would attribute it to the 6C33's and the high current ability they posess and the toroidial output trannies. Neither my Boulder 250 mono's, nor my Fourier OTL couldvcome close to the BAT. The only other amp at that time that could was the KSA-80B which I owned after the Boulder and the Fourier. I kept both the BAT and the KSA-80B for quite some time.... till I built my Aleph 2's in fact.
Mark
burnedfingers said:
there was also a 2-part series on the Tigersaurus in Audio Amateur in 1990 -- the author described the problems of the amplifier -- first of all they were noteably unreliable, aquiring the name "Flaming Tiger" as the wiring harnesses were wont to burn, the amplifier had oscillation problems, power supply problems and was poorly laid out.
this being said, some aspects of the amplifier anticipate the advances of Bongiorno's "Ampzilla" -- and a Tiger -- if it isn't a charred hulk -- can be brought to a higher degree of performance.
"there was also a 2-part series on the Tigersaurus in Audio Amateur in 1990 -- the author described the problems of the amplifier -- first of all they were noteably unreliable, aquiring the name "Flaming Tiger" as the wiring harnesses were wont to burn, the amplifier had oscillation problems, power supply problems and was poorly laid out."
That guy didn't have a clue. The amp that burned up used an off-brand of outputs (Pecor) . Second sourced parts are similar at best, the same way generic drugs are.
"no offense but I could make a fantastic argument that that "slam" is solely the function of the speakers/enclosure/room vs. "what kind of power is my power". "
I can take an amp that sounds like a bucket of sludge, add a few bypass caps, and then it sounds like a sledgehammer.
"especially with the compression circuit kicked in to keep 'em from clipping."
The DDT circuit in the CS800 has a long time constant before it kicks in. The amp will clip for this interval.
If an amplifier is well designed, clipping of less than 40mSec is usually not audible. The Apt power amp (Tom Holman) had a 'distortion alert' that detected clipping and turned on the indicator after 40mSec.
Some amps fall apart the instant they clip, the Yamaha A40 comes to mind. It sounded pretty good, up to the point where it clipped, and then...yuck! A well behaved amp of half the rated power would play much louder and still sound good.
That guy didn't have a clue. The amp that burned up used an off-brand of outputs (Pecor) . Second sourced parts are similar at best, the same way generic drugs are.
"no offense but I could make a fantastic argument that that "slam" is solely the function of the speakers/enclosure/room vs. "what kind of power is my power". "
I can take an amp that sounds like a bucket of sludge, add a few bypass caps, and then it sounds like a sledgehammer.
"especially with the compression circuit kicked in to keep 'em from clipping."
The DDT circuit in the CS800 has a long time constant before it kicks in. The amp will clip for this interval.
If an amplifier is well designed, clipping of less than 40mSec is usually not audible. The Apt power amp (Tom Holman) had a 'distortion alert' that detected clipping and turned on the indicator after 40mSec.
Some amps fall apart the instant they clip, the Yamaha A40 comes to mind. It sounded pretty good, up to the point where it clipped, and then...yuck! A well behaved amp of half the rated power would play much louder and still sound good.
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