I've heard what you're hearing, it's not that difficult to believe. I went through an obsessive first order phase and there are some real and audible effects at play.
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Audio Nirvana 15” Super, single full range driver.
They sound amazing, I’ve yet to hear anything as good whether commercial or DIY.
I’ve got me a couple of pricy drivers that are regarded as close to the pinnacle in their respected fields to attempt to beat it using a multi-way, but it’s not finished and I consider it a long shot, but I’m willing to try this one last time.
I do have a soft spot for the MA 10 series too.
They sound amazing, I’ve yet to hear anything as good whether commercial or DIY.
I’ve got me a couple of pricy drivers that are regarded as close to the pinnacle in their respected fields to attempt to beat it using a multi-way, but it’s not finished and I consider it a long shot, but I’m willing to try this one last time.
I do have a soft spot for the MA 10 series too.
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The idea is that the crossover should do the very bare minimum required. The best crossover is NO crossover; after that, keep it as simple and pure as possible...I have tried many things over many decades; if you can use 1st order passives then by all means stick with that. Square waves don't lie!
Imagine a full range driver. It is ruler flat from 100 Hz to 10 KHz. Use a woofer or sub below and a tweeter or ST above. Use the best inductor and capacitor on the wide band mid or FR...passive...square waves do not lie...so simple? NO, that is the secret; getting the best drivers in every price range is the REAL secret...why I started this thread in the first place...
If that's aimed at me, I watched the video and thought it was funny, but I still don't know what he means by 1st order.
I then skimmed through the whole thread, and I'm still not sure, but perhaps I missed something?
Well, then you have IMD on the low end and lobing on the top end. Really just depends on your design philosophy and how readily you can hear various audio phenomena.
1st order = 6dB slope, no?
Personally I stick with 12dB LR passive or 24dB LR active unless I have a really good reason not to.
Put a full range driver into a horn, band pass without electronic crossover! Actually just a too small closed box and "front chamber" would be enough, no need for horn. Put a woofer into a band pass box, no need for electric low pass. Cap on a tweeter would probably be necessary, that would make one component crossover for the whole 3-way speaker 🙂
Could be fun thought and build experiment. Then you measure it and notice the measurements have slopes like with electronic crossover but now you don't have as much control about the slopes, delays and whatnot without electronic crossover and come to conclusion electronic crossovers are good for the sound, not bad. One could slap a 10k$ price per box and they would sell, because they are so advanced. Peace 🙂
Could be fun thought and build experiment. Then you measure it and notice the measurements have slopes like with electronic crossover but now you don't have as much control about the slopes, delays and whatnot without electronic crossover and come to conclusion electronic crossovers are good for the sound, not bad. One could slap a 10k$ price per box and they would sell, because they are so advanced. Peace 🙂
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Well, if you do a proper box and don't drive the wide band or full range too hard; the IMD is minimal.
Well, yes, I also meant the full range or wide band would have a natural roll off at both ends. Overlap with a woofer and tweeter are minimal because of this natural roll off. 1 inductor on the woofer and 1 capacitor on the tweeter. I was NOT pointing my remarks at ANYONE by the way; just my grumpy old man style...
Mmm... yeah, that's a limitation of a small driver going low - you can't get too much SPL out of it or you start getting a meteoric rise in HD and IMD.
I guess a full-range driver with a whizzer cone is a different story, but that has its own issues.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1150-faitalpro-6fe100-8-specifications.pdf
Something like this; off axis would probably solve the hump at the top of the band. Not just Fostex or Mark Audio, Dayton, Tymphany and others have 3 to 6 inch full range, wide band mids and wide band mid-woofers. Depending on your personal listening tastes and music styles; things like the Satori MR16 mid can be run true full range with no X/O components whatsoever. I have done this in a closed box; it goes below 80 Hz and above 6 KHz without a hint of stress or distortion even at higher SPLs. NOT for everyone obviously...
Something like this; off axis would probably solve the hump at the top of the band. Not just Fostex or Mark Audio, Dayton, Tymphany and others have 3 to 6 inch full range, wide band mids and wide band mid-woofers. Depending on your personal listening tastes and music styles; things like the Satori MR16 mid can be run true full range with no X/O components whatsoever. I have done this in a closed box; it goes below 80 Hz and above 6 KHz without a hint of stress or distortion even at higher SPLs. NOT for everyone obviously...
Ok, 1st order electrical.
Not easy to do properly, but If you can get it to work, I can see some advantages.
But anyway, the two drivers should be very flat beyond two or three octaves overlap... so it's first order acoustic as well (theorically saying) ? 😀.... with the tweeter physically offseted in relation to the XO (that's not so clear to e, I try to work on the impulse response to see where the slope order matters and so on...)
Is there not assymetrical 1st order Xo to play with the phase and/or the off-set between the drivers ?
It's not clear to me how should be the physical offset of the drivers and if the phase off-set in the cut-off point instead have identical behavior ?
Is there 90° offset on the two or three octaves below and upon the XO cut-off ?
Group delay VS phase are not easy to understand for a beginner at playing with crossover sim like I do ?! 🙁
Sorry OSG, a little off topic but I know you're a first order enthusiast 🙂, so I permit to ask in the thread. (you will be welcome to help in the casual monitor I' making dor the passive filter btw...😀)
Is there not assymetrical 1st order Xo to play with the phase and/or the off-set between the drivers ?
It's not clear to me how should be the physical offset of the drivers and if the phase off-set in the cut-off point instead have identical behavior ?
Is there 90° offset on the two or three octaves below and upon the XO cut-off ?
Group delay VS phase are not easy to understand for a beginner at playing with crossover sim like I do ?! 🙁
Sorry OSG, a little off topic but I know you're a first order enthusiast 🙂, so I permit to ask in the thread. (you will be welcome to help in the casual monitor I' making dor the passive filter btw...😀)
Well, in my case; all of my drivers are in their own separate enclosures so I can move them in all 3 dimensions independently...Yes; overlap is a big concern but that is why I very carefully choose drivers for their FR among other things. It is not about how much they cost; it is about how well they perform in their given price range. I have spent $400 US on drivers that I thought didn't sound as good as $40 US!!! NO KIDDING!!!
I forgot to put in the "why" for my selection:
budget, A$25 each : Peerless 830656 mid ; VIFA BC25T series tweeter. The Peerless sounds good, has a nice easy to work with FR and doesn't need countersinking, the BC25 sounds nice but won't play too loudly without sounding a little harsh.
mid (A$40 each): SB Acoustics SB16PFC, Peerless DA25 aluminium tweeter. The SB has a difficult shape frame for countersinking, so I didn't. It has a nice smooth sound, digs quite low in the right cabinet and is very good value. The DA25 is just marvellous: detailed, will play loud enough and looks cool.
high(er) end ($A100 each) : Dayton RS180P, Morel CAT378. The RS180P sounds fine, looks really cool and has good Xmax. Really good for jazz and classics. The Morel is expensive but requires few XO parts and can be pushed hard without sounding harsh, it has plenty of detail and particularly brings out violin harmonics.
Honourable mention to the Peerless SDS160 6.5", which sounds like the 830656 but has double the Xmax and plays much lower. Only available from Parts Express, I think.
Geoff
budget, A$25 each : Peerless 830656 mid ; VIFA BC25T series tweeter. The Peerless sounds good, has a nice easy to work with FR and doesn't need countersinking, the BC25 sounds nice but won't play too loudly without sounding a little harsh.
mid (A$40 each): SB Acoustics SB16PFC, Peerless DA25 aluminium tweeter. The SB has a difficult shape frame for countersinking, so I didn't. It has a nice smooth sound, digs quite low in the right cabinet and is very good value. The DA25 is just marvellous: detailed, will play loud enough and looks cool.
high(er) end ($A100 each) : Dayton RS180P, Morel CAT378. The RS180P sounds fine, looks really cool and has good Xmax. Really good for jazz and classics. The Morel is expensive but requires few XO parts and can be pushed hard without sounding harsh, it has plenty of detail and particularly brings out violin harmonics.
Honourable mention to the Peerless SDS160 6.5", which sounds like the 830656 but has double the Xmax and plays much lower. Only available from Parts Express, I think.
Geoff
Geoff, I have had some of those same drivers as you. SB is my go to brand these days at every price level but Vifa/Tymphany/Peerless are also great choices and some Daytons as well. I used Polydax back in the day (before they changed the name to Audax); same thing, good value. In the USA now though, Audax only has a few driver choices; I'm guessing it is a marketing thing because I noticed many more Audax choices on the European websites