Fast midrange driver

[Hartono]

So the noise of the surface cone spl is big enough and is transmitted to the air molecul front during the push of the cone or is it simply the bigget break up effect that occurs at higher frequency that is not paded down enough that polutes the next driver/way ?

Both matters, more so nearing and at breakup, their action adds to each other, also add the ringing/damping profile of the cone material.

The SPL of the noise is much lower than fundamental but those above actions combined make it more audible.

Messy, yes.

 

[diyiggy]

The Duelend filter shows than the pass band width has nothing to see with the transcient behavior and perception...I just wanted to highlight it. We often make too strong some behaviors in spite of more important one for discuss subject...i.e. split hair side to side to a bear when talking about furs. I.e. ranking the trade offs in the wrong order. That is how sometimes because it is easily measurable we like to talk about noise everywhere... The surface noise is maybe more pzrciptible with laser tools than ears...the break ups however color certainly more...and odly it is not called noise....just a non wanted artifact of the cone behavior aboce the usefull used frequency range.

 

[Juhazi]

I have no idea of what speed of a loudspeaker driver means, and this discussion is not helping me.

 

[Brett]

when you listened in your room

In every room I've tried it in.

One lesser discussed and overlooked reason is mid and mid high distortion is higher frequency than fundamental, when using more abrupt off-axis dropoff, the higher frequency distortion’s on-axis sounds is more prominent, hence less natural sounding.

That makes no sense, and is certainly not my experience.

It is non-ideal sound produced by the cone material and geometry combination

Same motor , same cone geometry, same suspension, same equalized response still sounds different between paper cones ( thickness, fibre profile and mix, etc), even more so with differing cone material

Contributing factor:
More or less pistonic or bending in motion,

Brittle/ flexible bend transitions while on action ( eg.paper vs carbon fibre vs plastic ).

Mass, damping

Layering of composites, paper fibre types, resins, damping compound, metal ringing, cone profile, patterning and cuts/grooves, dust cap size and material.

How the cone/surface is driven
(eg voice coil former driven dynamic driver vs planar vs electrostat ).

Got an AES paper that shows how this is audibly significant?

 

[diyiggy]

I have no idea of what speed of a loudspeaker driver means, and this discussion is not helping me.

You know it already : flat power response & flat group delay.

People mix out fastness concept which is the ability for the motor according the sensibility to reach the spl in the time windows of the partition. If the Sd is lower than another driver, the former will have a larger exursion and so need to be faster than the second driver to acheive the same spl in the same time windows.
For the listener experience if each time the amp is following the power demand thete is no difference in the followed tempo of the recvording. Some little Sd at higj level can not reach the acurate spl due to thermal compression that can dip the power response. Even so I am not sure it is perceived in lack of dynamic...the second concept people often mix out with the fastness one . Idem for the transcient...They look for a said "fast" midrange for something than often occur higher in the harmonics that can be the field of the upper driver....
Imho....

 

[Hartono]

In every room I've tried it in.

That makes no sense, and is certainly not my experience.

Got an AES paper that shows how this is audibly significant?

I am not the authority on audio, and my design opinion makes sense for me, if you have different explanation and reasoning can be shared.
My oponion can be hard to accept because it is not conventional wisdom.

 

[Brett]

I am not the authority on audio, and my design opinion makes sense for me, if you have different explanation and reasoning can be shared.
My oponion can be hard to accept because it is not conventional wisdom.

Fair enough, but I've read so many, let's say ,'questionable', purported effects that unless I see some actual backup for them, I don't waste time on those rabbit holes.

 

[Hartono]

The Duelend filter shows than the pass band width has nothing to see with the transcient behavior and perception...I just wanted to highlight it. We often make too strong some behaviors in spite of more important one for discuss subject...i.e. split hair side to side to a bear when talking about furs. I.e. ranking the trade offs in the wrong order. That is how sometimes because it is easily measurable we like to talk about noise everywhere... The surface noise is maybe more pzrciptible with laser tools than ears...the break ups however color certainly more...and odly it is not called noise....just a non wanted artifact of the cone behavior aboce the usefull used frequency range.

Given hifi setup for sound accuracy to source, surface noise is definitely audible.

no cone material sounds the same, this should be obvious from some basic experiment, no paper cone and aluminum cone midrange sound even close.

Despite very low THD and same eq-ed response, ferrite core inductor still sounds different and less clean than air core inductor, it is noise of the core in action.

Just seeing THD has it’s limitations, it is like judging amplifier sound from power delivery into 0.1% THD figure, even just beefing up the power supply will improve PSU noise and audible without changing THD level unless pushed really hard.

For everyone who feels all speaker cone material sounds the same, good for you, buy any low THD and be done.

please feel free to make thread for “all cone material sound the same”

 

[Hartono]

Fair enough, but I've read so many, let's say ,'questionable', purported effects that unless I see some actual backup for them, I don't waste time on those rabbit holes.

Totally understand, information can get lost when it is hard to find reliable one.

 

[Brett]

surface noise is definitely audible.

Than it's measurable. Can I see some so I can start to isolate the effects and ameliorate them?

 

[Hartono]

Than it's measurable. Can I see some so I can start to isolate the effects and ameliorate them?

Maybe try Linkwitz speaker webpage, it got some sort of measurement.

Also just try comparing the sound of 3 inch fullrange high passed at 500hz , paper, plastic, aluminum all sounds different despite similar response and polars.

If can not find any sound difference then I dont know what else to say.

 

[Brett]

Maybe try Linkwitz speaker webpage, it got some sort of measurement.

I'm not going to go over a huge amount of information again to attempt to find some vague reference. Surely if you know and understand what this is, they you can point it out.

Also just try comparing the sound of 3 inch fullrange high passed at 500hz , paper, plastic, aluminum all sounds different despite similar response and polars.

And no doubt different motor and other structures.

If can not find any sound difference then I dont know what else to say.

I'm actually trying to see if there is something to be had here, but I'm not seeing it. That line is the stereotypical audiophile cop out.

 

[Hartono]

I'm not going to go over a huge amount of information again to attempt to find some vague reference. Surely if you know and understand what this is, they you can point it out.


I'm actually trying to see if there is something to be had here, but I'm not seeing it. That line is the stereotypical audiophile cop out.

Driver tweeter and midrange distortion test link:

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/mid_dist.htm

I'm actually trying to see if there is something to be had here, but I'm not seeing it. That line is the stereotypical audiophile cop out.

Have a look at link above

 

[Brett]

Seen it before and there is nothing there that hasn't been known for ages, just easier to measure these days. 'Surface noise' seems to be just a made up term that can mean anything the person using it wants it to mean.

 

[Hartono]

If you don’t find audible difference that’s fine, Linkwitz measured differences between cone material and if that doesn’t satisfy your observation that’s fine too.

If others like me found audible difference and has tried to show some measurement from authority figure, please don’t belittle, thank you.

 

[diyiggy]

Hartono,
Feel free to explain how different cone material sound faster....take a chrono.
As for the air coil...good luck with saturation... and even so ferite core exhibit less impedance...less resistance equals less Johnson or maybe you are ofcthe very few that choose air core then putt a resistor to match the spl... or you just talk aboutvrhe said fastness of tweetrrs. it is not serious you mix all the concepts and mostly you scale them bad while staying off topic.

 

[Brett]

Don't project . Thank you.
Still not seeing anything new that warrants the use of a new made up term.

Linkwitz measured differences between cone material

Most of those were on completely different drivers, and as such you cannot isolate the cone material as the culprit for any sonic issues you claim.

 

[Hartono]

Don't project . Thank you.
Still not seeing anything new that warrants the use of a new made up term.

Most of those were on completely different drivers, and as such you cannot isolate the cone material as the culprit for any sonic issues you claim.

Ok I have stated my views and you have yours, you dont find differences fine

you dont like the test method of linkwitz and it’a scope fine.

it is also fine for me to discuss cone sound with others, please dont keep pointing your opinion to disrupt me and others who wants to discuss, your opinion is stated few times and acknowledged.

 

[Hartono]

Hartono,
Feel free to explain how different cone material sound faster....take a chrono.
As for the air coil...good luck with saturation... and even so ferite core exhibit less impedance...less resistance equals less Johnson or maybe you are ofcthe very few that choose air core then putt a resistor to match the spl... or you just talk aboutvrhe said fastness of tweetrrs. it is not serious you mix all the concepts and mostly you scale them bad while staying off topic.

Sure, I am just giving analogy how very low THD parts still can sound different.

Btw I think ferrite core is the one that saturates, not air core.

Also air core have more DCR thats result in more impedance given same coil gauge.

padding resistor can be more less depending which driver we want to be padded.

 

[Brett]

please dont keep pointing your opinion to disrupt me

So, you post on a public forum and don't want people to question you on it? Are people only allowed to agree with you? I've simply been trying to understand what you've been saying and so far have found no evidence that you are describing an actual effect. In that case the problem is yours. The rule in life is, you make the claim, you back it up, which so far I haven't seen you do. If you ever do back it up with useful evidence I will gladly acknowledge that as I will have learned something from the experience.