Samuel Jayaraj said:
I do not think so. You would need 3-dimensional photo to evaluate this.
P.S. I rechecked the image again, you might be right, should be checked by Terry. These DIY boards are a pain.
Hi !
This 22ohm+100uF thing, with 2.2ms it filters down to ~500hz, protecting the mids and highs. When i introduced this filter to my amps a long time ago, it had such a big improvement on sound (smoother mids and highs) that i was completely happy with it and never again looked at it. Carlos is right, with larger values here dynamics can be improved, i will investigate... Increasing the cap is dangerous because of ripplecurrents, so a perfect value for the 22r needs to be found.
Mike
This 22ohm+100uF thing, with 2.2ms it filters down to ~500hz, protecting the mids and highs. When i introduced this filter to my amps a long time ago, it had such a big improvement on sound (smoother mids and highs) that i was completely happy with it and never again looked at it. Carlos is right, with larger values here dynamics can be improved, i will investigate... Increasing the cap is dangerous because of ripplecurrents, so a perfect value for the 22r needs to be found.
Mike
Samuel Jayaraj said:
Hmm, this might fry the outputstage, but is unlikely to create smoke in the vas... I think there must be a short somewhere in vas.
Mike
I am sorry again Pavel, was a misunderstooding...my problem when reading English
And a personal defect.....to be fast to conclude...this is annoying even to myself..... well...each one of us have to leave with our own defects.... i hate when i misunderstand, but serves to me as reference to try to have more attention.
Your 3 ohms are correct, perfect...any problem...i misunderstood, and loosing my figth against this defect i have to misunderstand things, repeating once again this mistake...well....not your case, but i am turning old with 55 years...that's my reality.
A feel good to see that you have more acceptance, are more humble and fair related modifications, as you take those things serious and you analise the posssibility in a good way...i have to say that you grown in my feelings because of that actitude, much better than Michael's actitude, that was always resistant to my informs related that resistor....ithink he had not time enougth to test.
I always used bigger value there into rail resistors....not the outside board low value, not the protective, current limiting one that is used when power on the amplifier for the first time....i am talking about the 22R one, and also i have increased my supply voltage, as my transformers are made by myself, i use to coiled them by hand, to the voltage i need..... so....they are not so strong, and well made as industrial toroidal units...i am not a millionaire, so, some material i have to buy in the street corner, some deposit of old garbage.... and Michael just order an wait...his transformer is better than mine, and he is more rich too.
A matter of coincidence, but having not too much money to spend in transformers, i am beeing a more DIY than many guys that just order parts....i use to make my own transformers, enclosures and to prepare cables using telephone wires...well.... i use to make a lot of things not to spend money (maybe moneywise.... but more broken in the reality)
I have increased my supply voltage, to respect Michael's design...as was made to work with 36 volts.under the sittuation of maximum power unclipped...it has bigger voltage....but voltage reduce when the amplifier is hard excited...so.... i am using a supply that reduce its voltage to this one (36V) when hard used...to guaranteed that the amplifier will work under Michael specifications.
Related the resistor, you can observe that normally it is bigger in other amplifiers, because they try to avoid problems.... Symassym need a bigger resistor than other designs, because the input current is smaller than others, and to have a good reduce of voltage to input, the resistor have to be bigger than other designs.
But Michael never listened that, and i think he never tested full volume, as he cannot do that in the place he live.
I suggest him to use a speaker with diafragm supressed...keeping the under suspension...only voice coil travelling into the magnet field...and mufled, inside a box, to avoid disturb neighboors and to test at the maximum power, as distortion there, the type of distortion, how bad it can be, depends that you go to listen real high power, with real load (speaker)...so...real distortion will appear, very different than dummy loads....but please!...do not use without magnets...the coil will burn in flames....this is dedicated to beginners...as experience guys already knows that.
I also suggest to use a resistor from this speaker, this one that will receive the bigger power, a series resistor..33 ohms to 100 ohms and connect it into a headphone...so...when the speaker inside the box started to distort, you will perceive the real distotion in the in the headphone....and headphone will be not distorting by itself, as voltage that will go into the headphone drivers are low in power, but repeating the waveform produced over the inner mufled box speaker.
He did not made that, he continued to use the Simulator and concluding that is enougth, when i am sure that is not enougth!..because i made the test, and in real world, it is not enougth.
In this thread, already published 4 times that i use 180 ohms each rail, and that my voltage is bigger because i have losses of voltage in my supply.
Also i told Michael many times....i think the enormous sucess he is having with this wonderfull amplifier, goes up into his mind and beeing the frite potatoes king, he is not listening the other's ideas anymore....well...the king is the king...i can understand that, because he is young.
In the reality, many guys will not bother related the 22 ohms resistor, as they did not listened the amplifier,in the threshold of distortion, they heard only distorted peaks of power....and having not the experience to listen 2 channels at same time, one with 22 ohms resistor and other with bigger resistor, they do not know the differences of that modifications...and go listening feeling good, as the amplifier continue to be very good, even with this under dimensioned resistor...but distort less and in a better way, when using higher values....of course, this difference,as you know, appear only when you are near the clipping...operating the amplifier into it's limits.
Now Michael is changing the boad..... John had told him, in the early days, that the board was creating some problems.
The problem is that Michael have not time to listen us...he is always busy, so he use to read messages fast, and has some problems to listen suggestions, that are acceptable if do not change his design too much....his tollerance is under plus and minus 20 percent.
Well, the king has his own problems too, he is human and not perfect alike us, and this resistor is wrong!..... will work only in small power...going hard, will turn distortion worst.
What can i do...i send mails to him and he ask if i was kidding.
ahahahahaha, not this time.
I will repeat, clearly, to all guys that already constructed Symassym...."try a bigger resistor in your rails, this 22 ohms resistor is not enougth!"
The amplifier is beautifull, the designer is very good, was tested by many good people, but we normally do not use so big power...reason why this problem do not appear....try it to have the amplifier even better.
I feel myself responsable too by the thread, as i have openned this one and i told, many times, that this amplifier is guaranteed, so, i cannot silence when observed a wrong thing on it...and keept this way because Michael are not listening me anymore.
Hystory shown us many kings that turns a dictator...well, not exactly Michael's case, his sittuation is different...but i learn one more thing....when a king is created, he will have power over you...and this can be very annoying if the King start to think that turn into a God!....hehe...not exactly the case....hehe.
Now i prefer to talk with you Pavel, my ideas are changing about you..... you listen the others!
I love to change my point of views, i think i superate myself every time this happens...well, Hugh always told me that you have attention related other's opinnions, and i trust strongly on Hugh ideas, he is a very good friend. this is nice from you.
Also i did not like that idea to pull the Michaels Leg..... grumpf, he asked wich leg....i think he imagined that he has many legs, maybe more than two...well...the king is the king!....but i have not a good lenses to observe small details.....ahahahahah!
regards,
Carlos
And a personal defect.....to be fast to conclude...this is annoying even to myself..... well...each one of us have to leave with our own defects.... i hate when i misunderstand, but serves to me as reference to try to have more attention.
Your 3 ohms are correct, perfect...any problem...i misunderstood, and loosing my figth against this defect i have to misunderstand things, repeating once again this mistake...well....not your case, but i am turning old with 55 years...that's my reality.
A feel good to see that you have more acceptance, are more humble and fair related modifications, as you take those things serious and you analise the posssibility in a good way...i have to say that you grown in my feelings because of that actitude, much better than Michael's actitude, that was always resistant to my informs related that resistor....ithink he had not time enougth to test.
I always used bigger value there into rail resistors....not the outside board low value, not the protective, current limiting one that is used when power on the amplifier for the first time....i am talking about the 22R one, and also i have increased my supply voltage, as my transformers are made by myself, i use to coiled them by hand, to the voltage i need..... so....they are not so strong, and well made as industrial toroidal units...i am not a millionaire, so, some material i have to buy in the street corner, some deposit of old garbage.... and Michael just order an wait...his transformer is better than mine, and he is more rich too.
A matter of coincidence, but having not too much money to spend in transformers, i am beeing a more DIY than many guys that just order parts....i use to make my own transformers, enclosures and to prepare cables using telephone wires...well.... i use to make a lot of things not to spend money (maybe moneywise.... but more broken in the reality)
I have increased my supply voltage, to respect Michael's design...as was made to work with 36 volts.under the sittuation of maximum power unclipped...it has bigger voltage....but voltage reduce when the amplifier is hard excited...so.... i am using a supply that reduce its voltage to this one (36V) when hard used...to guaranteed that the amplifier will work under Michael specifications.
Related the resistor, you can observe that normally it is bigger in other amplifiers, because they try to avoid problems.... Symassym need a bigger resistor than other designs, because the input current is smaller than others, and to have a good reduce of voltage to input, the resistor have to be bigger than other designs.
But Michael never listened that, and i think he never tested full volume, as he cannot do that in the place he live.
I suggest him to use a speaker with diafragm supressed...keeping the under suspension...only voice coil travelling into the magnet field...and mufled, inside a box, to avoid disturb neighboors and to test at the maximum power, as distortion there, the type of distortion, how bad it can be, depends that you go to listen real high power, with real load (speaker)...so...real distortion will appear, very different than dummy loads....but please!...do not use without magnets...the coil will burn in flames....this is dedicated to beginners...as experience guys already knows that.
I also suggest to use a resistor from this speaker, this one that will receive the bigger power, a series resistor..33 ohms to 100 ohms and connect it into a headphone...so...when the speaker inside the box started to distort, you will perceive the real distotion in the in the headphone....and headphone will be not distorting by itself, as voltage that will go into the headphone drivers are low in power, but repeating the waveform produced over the inner mufled box speaker.
He did not made that, he continued to use the Simulator and concluding that is enougth, when i am sure that is not enougth!..because i made the test, and in real world, it is not enougth.
In this thread, already published 4 times that i use 180 ohms each rail, and that my voltage is bigger because i have losses of voltage in my supply.
Also i told Michael many times....i think the enormous sucess he is having with this wonderfull amplifier, goes up into his mind and beeing the frite potatoes king, he is not listening the other's ideas anymore....well...the king is the king...i can understand that, because he is young.
In the reality, many guys will not bother related the 22 ohms resistor, as they did not listened the amplifier,in the threshold of distortion, they heard only distorted peaks of power....and having not the experience to listen 2 channels at same time, one with 22 ohms resistor and other with bigger resistor, they do not know the differences of that modifications...and go listening feeling good, as the amplifier continue to be very good, even with this under dimensioned resistor...but distort less and in a better way, when using higher values....of course, this difference,as you know, appear only when you are near the clipping...operating the amplifier into it's limits.
Now Michael is changing the boad..... John had told him, in the early days, that the board was creating some problems.
The problem is that Michael have not time to listen us...he is always busy, so he use to read messages fast, and has some problems to listen suggestions, that are acceptable if do not change his design too much....his tollerance is under plus and minus 20 percent.
Well, the king has his own problems too, he is human and not perfect alike us, and this resistor is wrong!..... will work only in small power...going hard, will turn distortion worst.
What can i do...i send mails to him and he ask if i was kidding.
ahahahahaha, not this time.
I will repeat, clearly, to all guys that already constructed Symassym...."try a bigger resistor in your rails, this 22 ohms resistor is not enougth!"
The amplifier is beautifull, the designer is very good, was tested by many good people, but we normally do not use so big power...reason why this problem do not appear....try it to have the amplifier even better.
I feel myself responsable too by the thread, as i have openned this one and i told, many times, that this amplifier is guaranteed, so, i cannot silence when observed a wrong thing on it...and keept this way because Michael are not listening me anymore.
Hystory shown us many kings that turns a dictator...well, not exactly Michael's case, his sittuation is different...but i learn one more thing....when a king is created, he will have power over you...and this can be very annoying if the King start to think that turn into a God!....hehe...not exactly the case....hehe.
Now i prefer to talk with you Pavel, my ideas are changing about you..... you listen the others!
I love to change my point of views, i think i superate myself every time this happens...well, Hugh always told me that you have attention related other's opinnions, and i trust strongly on Hugh ideas, he is a very good friend. this is nice from you.
Also i did not like that idea to pull the Michaels Leg..... grumpf, he asked wich leg....i think he imagined that he has many legs, maybe more than two...well...the king is the king!....but i have not a good lenses to observe small details.....ahahahahah!
regards,
Carlos
Carlos: Why did you say these things about Mike ?
Read post #1463... I dont unserstand you sometimes... 🙂
Read post #1463... I dont unserstand you sometimes... 🙂
Because this answer was a result of enormous pressure i made direcly mailing him.
But those things are old my dear...... monthes ago i was arguing, diiscussing with him this subject.
He accept to take a look because he knows me very well, that i will insist that some analisis are needed.
Also, because we may typped messages not knowing what the other one was typping.
I am saying that because it is true.
But he shown some nice interest to take a look into that subject.
Nothing in this life is an accident.... even action have a reaction...this way, my action started with some reaction he had.
Now he is reacting because my action...and this way world goes running....interactions may be the adequate name.
As some U.S. important guy once told:
"This is a war for piece"
In the reality, this is not completelly non sense..... was an US president...that produced weapons, and enormous military power, to show other nations that is not adequate create problems...so.... the weapons were used as a "guaranteed of peace"
"We will have power to destruct the world three times!.....and this will be made to guarantee that we will destruct nothing!"
To understant correctly those things, you must read all thread....very hard now a days, as it is enormous....but reading you will understand better a lot of things.... making analisis of those last threads, you may have a completely wrong image of Michael or my own image...and not only i am a nice guy as Michael is also a nice guy...and this communication problem is something alike family figth...normally finishes with eveyone laughing and hugs and cheers....the ones that entered to impeach the discussion are the ones that finally receive all hard results...ahahahaha!
This is just a picture....an instantaneous, moment image.... do not tell nothing about past or future...it is alike a married guys... and you can watch them smiling in some party.... also, the wife and the husband laughing have fun.... hands touching one each other....but before the party they had enormous figth...with a lot of noise....also, maybe tomorrow they will go to a new honey moon...life is this way....changing.... in constant modifications...you are having an instantaneous picture only..and this seems almost half of nothing.
Between Michael and me...the sittuation is something alike:
- " Hey brother, if you do not change you actitude, i will tell our daddy! "
regards,
Carlos
But those things are old my dear...... monthes ago i was arguing, diiscussing with him this subject.
He accept to take a look because he knows me very well, that i will insist that some analisis are needed.
Also, because we may typped messages not knowing what the other one was typping.
I am saying that because it is true.
But he shown some nice interest to take a look into that subject.
Nothing in this life is an accident.... even action have a reaction...this way, my action started with some reaction he had.
Now he is reacting because my action...and this way world goes running....interactions may be the adequate name.
As some U.S. important guy once told:
"This is a war for piece"
In the reality, this is not completelly non sense..... was an US president...that produced weapons, and enormous military power, to show other nations that is not adequate create problems...so.... the weapons were used as a "guaranteed of peace"
"We will have power to destruct the world three times!.....and this will be made to guarantee that we will destruct nothing!"
To understant correctly those things, you must read all thread....very hard now a days, as it is enormous....but reading you will understand better a lot of things.... making analisis of those last threads, you may have a completely wrong image of Michael or my own image...and not only i am a nice guy as Michael is also a nice guy...and this communication problem is something alike family figth...normally finishes with eveyone laughing and hugs and cheers....the ones that entered to impeach the discussion are the ones that finally receive all hard results...ahahahaha!
This is just a picture....an instantaneous, moment image.... do not tell nothing about past or future...it is alike a married guys... and you can watch them smiling in some party.... also, the wife and the husband laughing have fun.... hands touching one each other....but before the party they had enormous figth...with a lot of noise....also, maybe tomorrow they will go to a new honey moon...life is this way....changing.... in constant modifications...you are having an instantaneous picture only..and this seems almost half of nothing.
Between Michael and me...the sittuation is something alike:
- " Hey brother, if you do not change you actitude, i will tell our daddy! "
regards,
Carlos
Now is time for some reaction...i may be silent because i will format my HD
Computer turns crazy again....this Windows XP...Extra Problems!... and mine is the Professional big Extra Super Problems
I think i will "format" the HD, as this will reduce time..in a matter of 5 hours i will have my computer perfect, bran new again.
I will be back!....
regards,
Carlos
Computer turns crazy again....this Windows XP...Extra Problems!... and mine is the Professional big Extra Super Problems
I think i will "format" the HD, as this will reduce time..in a matter of 5 hours i will have my computer perfect, bran new again.
I will be back!....
regards,
Carlos
destroyer X said:
Of course i do if you say that the 22ohms is completely useless and has no function at all with this size... 🙄
Mike
MikeB said:
I made amplifier with 68ohms+6800uF filter for the input+VAS. It works quite nice. I never had any problem with it. I tried to see any ripple, or other AC signal on the rails, but it was impossible, even when I drove the amplifier with 50Hz signal up to the clipping, with 4ohm load.
sajti
There are of course several aspects of this filter, as Pavel pointed out. however, from one perspective, the optimal ought to be to have a filter pole that coincides with the dominant pole of the PSRR.
Samuel Jayaraj said:
Hi Sam,
I know it looks like there is a short there but there really isn't. Just a bad picture. I did find a short on the other board. I still can't find one on the board in the picture. I'm about to give up on these boards and etch some more. I have plenty of the devices to build more but I am missing some of the passive components. That is why I have been trying to get these working. I hate trying to solder short leads. I just never seem to know if I have a good connection. I checked all of the resistors and they are correct. I fixed the one solder bridge I found and now the voltage drop is the same side to side but still too high. It's about .5V across the 100R resistors at 12V rail voltage. If I go up to about 21V rail it raises to 1.2V drop. I still have something wrong. I don't mind trying to work out problems. I usually learn something in the process. I'm just kind of short on time right now.
I really appreciate all of you who are trying to help.
Blessings, Terry
Hi Terry, 1.2v is not far above 1.0v, it could be working now ! 1.2v is 12ma, this value is not a exact one... 10ma is for frontend, i forgot the bias for the drivers. Check if you can adjust bias now !
Mike
Mike
I went through Carlos's long post regarding the 22R resistor. From my point of view the result of his post would be that the input stage and VAS would have insufficient power supply ripple rejection, resulting in higher distortion when ripple on C10 and C11 occures. For similar reason I mentioned time constant 2.2ms. Michael, have you checked this? It is easy to add ac voltage sources upon dc there.
On the other hand, 44W into 4ohm does not show the problem.
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/sym5_44w_4o_1k.gif
100Hz spectral line is pretty low, 50Hz multiples as well. My amp has 60W into 4ohm, so the image is about -1.34dB below clipping.
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/sym5_44w_4o_1k.gif
100Hz spectral line is pretty low, 50Hz multiples as well. My amp has 60W into 4ohm, so the image is about -1.34dB below clipping.
which one
I am thinking of building another amplifier...maybe an Aleph 2, aleph-X or Krell KSA 50. Now I have been reading the MikeB amplifier thread. Anyone want to volunteer any comparisons or recommendations? Anyone build one\All of the above ?
Z
I am thinking of building another amplifier...maybe an Aleph 2, aleph-X or Krell KSA 50. Now I have been reading the MikeB amplifier thread. Anyone want to volunteer any comparisons or recommendations? Anyone build one\All of the above ?
Z
Hi Z, of course i can't give any objective recommendation... 😀
I was curious about Terry's result, he has an Aleph-X, a Krell and a Leach, he might be able to make a comparison. I have only symasyms and a DoZ... For my taste, the symasym smashes the DoZ.
All of your mentioned amps are ClassA, symasym "only" a ClassAB...
Mike
I was curious about Terry's result, he has an Aleph-X, a Krell and a Leach, he might be able to make a comparison. I have only symasyms and a DoZ... For my taste, the symasym smashes the DoZ.
All of your mentioned amps are ClassA, symasym "only" a ClassAB...
Mike
I am looking forward to comparing them too. 😀
As soon as I get the symasym running I will give my best review it. I am not satisfied with how my Aleph-X sounds but it could be my choice of components. I may revisit it once things settle down. I don't think you can go wrong with the KSA50. Wonderful sounding amp IMO.
I'm really hoping that the Symasym is too. Hopefully I will know very soon.
Blessings, Terry
As soon as I get the symasym running I will give my best review it. I am not satisfied with how my Aleph-X sounds but it could be my choice of components. I may revisit it once things settle down. I don't think you can go wrong with the KSA50. Wonderful sounding amp IMO.
I'm really hoping that the Symasym is too. Hopefully I will know very soon.
Blessings, Terry
Yes Pavel, this is what i was trying to say
Thank you to inform this, in a better way, to Mike.
regards,
Carlos
Thank you to inform this, in a better way, to Mike.
regards,
Carlos
Hi Pavel,
I checked the PSRR (in sims), i fed 1v ripple directly into the frontend supply lines, the rejection ratio here is -70db, when directly fed into the power supply it is -80db. Increasing the 22ohms to 100ohms did not change the -80db. With symetrical ripple like from a real powersupply (if transformer wired correctly) it is not visible in outputsignal.
These are not miracle numbers (or are they ?), but should be adequate low enough. With a weak powersupply (~1ohm resistance), it would create 8v ripple in powersupply for full power into 4ohms, that would create a compression with 0.0025%...
But i will further investigate...
Carlos, how big are your power supply caps ?
---------
Hi Terry, i checked in sims the idle currents with bias set to minimum, the drivers are still having ~14ma, so the correct value would be more like ~22ma, giving 2.2v across the 100ohm. As sims are not too accurate here, your 1.2v are quite good, and your amp is likely to be functional.
You can make some quick measurings, across the 680ohms (r5/6) you should measure ~1v, and across the 150ohms (r15/17) you should have ~375mv. These are only ~ values but should be in this range. If you have these measurings the amp should be fully functional.
Mike
I checked the PSRR (in sims), i fed 1v ripple directly into the frontend supply lines, the rejection ratio here is -70db, when directly fed into the power supply it is -80db. Increasing the 22ohms to 100ohms did not change the -80db. With symetrical ripple like from a real powersupply (if transformer wired correctly) it is not visible in outputsignal.
These are not miracle numbers (or are they ?), but should be adequate low enough. With a weak powersupply (~1ohm resistance), it would create 8v ripple in powersupply for full power into 4ohms, that would create a compression with 0.0025%...
But i will further investigate...
Carlos, how big are your power supply caps ?
---------
Hi Terry, i checked in sims the idle currents with bias set to minimum, the drivers are still having ~14ma, so the correct value would be more like ~22ma, giving 2.2v across the 100ohm. As sims are not too accurate here, your 1.2v are quite good, and your amp is likely to be functional.
You can make some quick measurings, across the 680ohms (r5/6) you should measure ~1v, and across the 150ohms (r15/17) you should have ~375mv. These are only ~ values but should be in this range. If you have these measurings the amp should be fully functional.
Mike
MikeB said:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for that. I will check it when I get home. Seems like after about 21V on the rails the voltage drop got much larger but I'm not sure about that right now. I will take more measurements when I get home tonight.
I didn't understand how to use your "debugging" chart. One more thing I should learn.
Thanks for taking the time to help me. That's what makes DIY so much fun.
Blessings, Terry