To be fair, Dustin Forman, the lead designer of the chip was involved during the initial implementation of the chip. I suspect they now realize that dealing with diyaudio folks may bring more harm than good... 🙂
More harm than good for them yeah sure. US$60 for a chip, crap datasheet only on request, and no support, and an extra helping of marketing blurb. How have they been getting away with this ? Really, this is appalling. No support ! Good grief. There's something very wrong here.
There is for sure an personal speculation... Harm for who/what? The chip its self, the ESS company, their crew...? Only lack of informations may lead to something which it may be harmful...
When one ask questions, do not ask as a DIYaudio member or in the name of DIY community/forum... Back someone who need more informations on this chip may be everybody...
ESS it used actually the DIY folks/comunity (very few in fact) to advertise for their (at that time) very new and performing DAC chip, and for an large testing of their designed component. This it were the TPA age and the developing of Buffalo concept. After ESS have done their "testing" (marketing/advertising and implementing technology), using DIY folks, all acces to informations were stopped... or ESS do not have any more the interest to deal with some one else about informations, and that because the joke with their Custom support/contact... It smells not quite nice all this...
There is not this way one may encourage the developing of products based on ESS components... But it seems that they have their own marketing strategy...😕
Sorry for out of topic intervention...
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Agree, just personal speculation. I too have tried contacting them and got no answer.
I agree that the data sheet is bare by industry standards, but us diyaudio folks are very demanding and when our expectations are not met, we can quickly dismiss the company.
But ask yourself a question: if dealing with individual inquiries (like ours) does indeed increase their bottom line, why wouldn't they do it?
I agree that the data sheet is bare by industry standards, but us diyaudio folks are very demanding and when our expectations are not met, we can quickly dismiss the company.
But ask yourself a question: if dealing with individual inquiries (like ours) does indeed increase their bottom line, why wouldn't they do it?
Maybe it may be quite demanding for their Custom support dept. to answer all the questions from individuals... But it may be a solution to open their own forum, which they may lead and control, and answer to main questions it may come out from the discussions. If is about too sensitive details, they can just say that. This may be a way which is more near to the concept: Custom support. Better to answer something, that they do not want to give an answer, than ignore all the requirements for informations coming from they who in fact are their customers, who use their products/components, and develop eventual products, which at last will increase their business...
There are many examples of big companies which take actually care of their customers: there is Oppo which answer every question it may come from they who buy/use their products There is Agilent which have a such customers forum. Agilent representatives and specialists read posts in that forum and come out with answers when is needed, or have to... And so on.
I think ESS may want to review their policy directed to their customers, not mater this customers are big companies or individuals. Publishing the data sheet for their DAC chips it may be the first step...
There are many examples of big companies which take actually care of their customers: there is Oppo which answer every question it may come from they who buy/use their products There is Agilent which have a such customers forum. Agilent representatives and specialists read posts in that forum and come out with answers when is needed, or have to... And so on.
I think ESS may want to review their policy directed to their customers, not mater this customers are big companies or individuals. Publishing the data sheet for their DAC chips it may be the first step...
If you want the DAC, with Crystek xo (suits 44.1Khz), sigma11 psu, op amps (ada4627br, lme49990ma), kubota reg, and case (not finished).... US$250 +shipping+paypal fee. I'll even thrown in the 50Mhz saw, and 100Mhz and 125 mhz xpresso's. That's an "at cost" price, maybe even slightly below cost.
See here :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/227284-build-thread-diyinhk-es9018-dac-ebay.html
I'm really serious. PM me if you are.
Forum admin - can I sell stuff here ? Sorry if that's not appropriate. Should I post an advert somewhere else ?
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I`m not the administrator, but just an opinion: those kind of things it may happen through PM procedure... But I personally do not think is inappropriate to just come out here with this message (once)...
Else discussion(s) it may goes on the topic, I suppose...
The discussion about ESS customers support policy, or theirs information policy is not just on topic, but anyway...
Else discussion(s) it may goes on the topic, I suppose...
The discussion about ESS customers support policy, or theirs information policy is not just on topic, but anyway...
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My frustration comes from not knowing performance for sample rates vs clock freq. I'd hope that ESS would provide this information. We've only had hints from Dustin, which GLT has very helpfully collected on his excellent blog.
Anyway, that seems moot now. I just tried the SAW and I'm a believer. I doubt the SAW would have been spec'd by ESS so, in this way, I suppose it's a good thing they haven't given out info - it has encouarged people to try things and discover SAW works very well. Although I still think their lack of support is shameful, and, yes, my DAC is for sale.
Anyway, I have a question - has anyone tried a range of SAW frequencies ? What would be best for CD and SACD ? (This is most of my music collection). Anybody know ? Will the 50ppm parts sound better than the 100ppm ? I'd assume so....but maybe not audible ?
cheers
Tom
Anyway, that seems moot now. I just tried the SAW and I'm a believer. I doubt the SAW would have been spec'd by ESS so, in this way, I suppose it's a good thing they haven't given out info - it has encouarged people to try things and discover SAW works very well. Although I still think their lack of support is shameful, and, yes, my DAC is for sale.
Anyway, I have a question - has anyone tried a range of SAW frequencies ? What would be best for CD and SACD ? (This is most of my music collection). Anybody know ? Will the 50ppm parts sound better than the 100ppm ? I'd assume so....but maybe not audible ?
cheers
Tom
About your frustration and angry against ESS disgusting behaviour. Again my opinion:
I think you should continue with your developing and findings. At last buy their chips and do it yourself the rest... As many other do.
There are more hints about ESS90xx, which is wrote down in this forum (TPA threads in the very beginning, when Dustin were interested in the new demo board concept: Buffalo).
The problem with SAW oscillators is that it`s produced frequencies it may difficult be adaptable to audio use. It were by chance that the 100Mhz SAW work for ESS9018... Else no any frequency those oscillators are produced is useful for us. I`m very happy with my 125Mhz SAW...
I do hope that some of the SAW producers will see the clue with audio adapted frequencies for those devices. But for at this it may happen, it is need of DIYs as us (you included...) and others who may bring out informations and details in using this type oscillator in audio world.
It may be like this that if you do not get answers at your above questions, then you may try yourself to find out if 50ppm it sounds better than 100ppm, f. ex... So, you should not sell your DAC, but use it to find out what ESS do not want to bring out to the light...
I think you should continue with your developing and findings. At last buy their chips and do it yourself the rest... As many other do.
There are more hints about ESS90xx, which is wrote down in this forum (TPA threads in the very beginning, when Dustin were interested in the new demo board concept: Buffalo).
The problem with SAW oscillators is that it`s produced frequencies it may difficult be adaptable to audio use. It were by chance that the 100Mhz SAW work for ESS9018... Else no any frequency those oscillators are produced is useful for us. I`m very happy with my 125Mhz SAW...
I do hope that some of the SAW producers will see the clue with audio adapted frequencies for those devices. But for at this it may happen, it is need of DIYs as us (you included...) and others who may bring out informations and details in using this type oscillator in audio world.
It may be like this that if you do not get answers at your above questions, then you may try yourself to find out if 50ppm it sounds better than 100ppm, f. ex... So, you should not sell your DAC, but use it to find out what ESS do not want to bring out to the light...
I'm going to keep experimenting (there are only 3 appropriate frequencies anyway) but I'm still interested in selling this DAC. The DAC sounds really good, as good as anything I've heard - great dynamics and imagery etc - but I have another DAC that sounds very similar ( a 384Khz DAC ). I don't need both, so, because ESS have decided to isolate themselves from their customers, the ESS is the one I'll sell.
The SAW is interesting. For some bits of music, it sounds quite aggressive - an explosion of detail and raw energy. The bass shakes the sofa, whereas, with the Crystek, I hear the bass as much as feel it. For other songs, it is simply revealing and accurate - true fidelity you might say. Piano is especially good with the SAW and I've always felt that getting a piano to sound right is one of the hallmarks of a good system.
The SAW also centres vocals very well, and pushes them forward a little, when sometimes the Crystek is a little more confused and flatter. It's a very small difference though.
So SAW is better ? Hmmm... different, and just as good in its own way, and better at some things, not others. Not a simple black/white answer for me.
What do you think about the 125 saw ? I guess you have compared it to other 125 clocks ?
So I think some will like it, and some will not, and many people who are invested in things like Ian's FIFO probably need not bother, unless they simply want to experience this for themselves.
cheers
The SAW is interesting. For some bits of music, it sounds quite aggressive - an explosion of detail and raw energy. The bass shakes the sofa, whereas, with the Crystek, I hear the bass as much as feel it. For other songs, it is simply revealing and accurate - true fidelity you might say. Piano is especially good with the SAW and I've always felt that getting a piano to sound right is one of the hallmarks of a good system.
The SAW also centres vocals very well, and pushes them forward a little, when sometimes the Crystek is a little more confused and flatter. It's a very small difference though.
So SAW is better ? Hmmm... different, and just as good in its own way, and better at some things, not others. Not a simple black/white answer for me.
What do you think about the 125 saw ? I guess you have compared it to other 125 clocks ?
So I think some will like it, and some will not, and many people who are invested in things like Ian's FIFO probably need not bother, unless they simply want to experience this for themselves.
cheers
Yes, I could compare too, two oscillators at 125Mhz. I have the same positive conclusion about 125Mhz SAW type. I had not enough time to go very deep in comparing the details, but an overall (end quite obviously for me) conclusion is that SAW it sounds better.
I`m just curious if we may hear from somebody else (who will want to try/use this oscillator type) some (honest...) negative conclusions about it...
I`m just curious if we may hear from somebody else (who will want to try/use this oscillator type) some (honest...) negative conclusions about it...
Hi guys,
For those of you who doesn't saw this presentation yet, here you'll find an explanation why ESS do not wanna make public many of the HyperStream modulator details.
RMAF 11: Noise Shaping Sigma Delta Based Dacs, Martin Mallison, CTO, ESS Technology - YouTube
Kind regards,
Mihai
For those of you who doesn't saw this presentation yet, here you'll find an explanation why ESS do not wanna make public many of the HyperStream modulator details.
RMAF 11: Noise Shaping Sigma Delta Based Dacs, Martin Mallison, CTO, ESS Technology - YouTube
Kind regards,
Mihai
And that explains why they don't take emails ? It's total bs that they won't give out simple stuff - clock freq vs performance.
I'm quite surprised some ppl here don't seem to understand the difference between marketing terms like "hyperstream" and simple DAC performance data. If the data is good, then the marketing can be reduced because the data sells itself. But have we got lots of great data or lots of great marketing ? Hmmm...
I'm quite surprised some ppl here don't seem to understand the difference between marketing terms like "hyperstream" and simple DAC performance data. If the data is good, then the marketing can be reduced because the data sells itself. But have we got lots of great data or lots of great marketing ? Hmmm...
You are right about missing datasheets which by the way, you could get it by kindly email Bryan at "bryan at shawelectronics dot com" and ask for, and their reluctance to respond to e-mail but that doesn't mean the product is crap. In fact, is one of the best DAC ever created.
and heres me thinking 'MAX Clock Speed 100MHz' was a hint at the performance above 100MHz...
ive never seen such a 'simple' graph of speed vs performance in ANY DAC datasheet
write to Ti as a single hobbyist and ask them to do a special test for you and see how you go.... ESS deal primarily with corporate clients and normally someone 'designing' with their parts is expected to have equipment to measure performance....
you are a single hobbyist, who has bought a single dac chip via a third party, theyve already done testing that told them 100MHz was as fast as you should go if you want to meet spec. They have no need to document it in detail, particularly when it does not even present a theoretical performance gain. the cost of doing such testing would far outweigh any benefit you present to them and if you were a larger customer, they would simply advise you against it.
yes they could be more responsive, but have you seen how popular their chips are? what do you offer them? the DIY community is a drop in the ocean.
ive never seen such a 'simple' graph of speed vs performance in ANY DAC datasheet
write to Ti as a single hobbyist and ask them to do a special test for you and see how you go.... ESS deal primarily with corporate clients and normally someone 'designing' with their parts is expected to have equipment to measure performance....
you are a single hobbyist, who has bought a single dac chip via a third party, theyve already done testing that told them 100MHz was as fast as you should go if you want to meet spec. They have no need to document it in detail, particularly when it does not even present a theoretical performance gain. the cost of doing such testing would far outweigh any benefit you present to them and if you were a larger customer, they would simply advise you against it.
yes they could be more responsive, but have you seen how popular their chips are? what do you offer them? the DIY community is a drop in the ocean.
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Actually, the DAC sells itself without much marketing. Every top audiophile company have a DAC or player based on ESS top Sabre chip.
Please take one hour from your free time and watch the presentation.
Hi, KlipschKid & Coris,
May I ask one thing to both of you?
Under which register setting conditions are you experimenting your clock devices?
Bunpei
May I ask one thing to both of you?
Under which register setting conditions are you experimenting your clock devices?
Bunpei
Hi Bunpei,
Mine is in default because I haven't built a controller yet. Actually, I might not bother.
Which settings will improve sound quality ? How much difference can they make ?
Thanks,
Tom
Mine is in default because I haven't built a controller yet. Actually, I might not bother.
Which settings will improve sound quality ? How much difference can they make ?
Thanks,
Tom