EnABL Processes

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#1,461
dlr said:


If debate is welcomed, as claimed by some (snip), those inconsistencies must be addressed directly.

Dave
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Hi Dave,

I trust those 'inconsistencies' will eventually be addressed fully, as much as you do. Just for discussions' (I prefer this term, as debate assumes a pre-conceived position) sake, lets assume that Buds explanation is true, ie. more 'information' is being transmitted to ones auditory canal and brain due to EnABL removing (fill in the blank) distortions associated with cone drivers. If this is true, can you assume that FR plots will show it? How many replicates are necessary to have a statistically significant result? At what time-frame would this result be resolved? How does room interaction play into the resulting data? Should we address sugestions put forth by Graham Maynard, soongsc and others?

Please do not take this as some sort of threat, or the babbling of a 'true believer' or some such. Consider it as honest questions from a sincere individual interested in both science (MS from USF-Tampa - Hi AJ), and 'music reproduction'; a person who has detected benefits from this 'voodoo' and is sincerely interested in why these 'benefits' were produced by some funny looking dashes, dots and coating of 50% solution of an acrylic polymer applied judiciously to a cone of an audio transducer. I appreciate that this thread has become more civilized of late and so I am posting my thoughts to (hopefully) direct us to a satisfactory endpoint. Please, you need not rehash your previous posts. I have read them and understand your position. I post to you as you are the last one to continually post your doubts.

t
 
#1,464
dlr said:
You are making my point in one way and that is the reports are often of dramatic change in perceived response for systems easily within the realm of established measurement systems if used correctly.
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3 assumptions which may, or not, be correct.
1. Dramatic change to one person may be subtle to another.
2. EnABL processes are easily measurable.
3. Maybe no one has used their test suites correctly.

However, the claim Bud made explicitly was that there is no FR change, repeat, no FR change, yet at the same time he specifically in his post to me linked to the tests made by soongsc as support for his position. This is but one of the contradictions, probably the most egregious. On this point I have simply been asking for clarification about the obvious contradiction, to no avail. Diversion or cynicism has been the standard response.
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Bud has, repeatedly, stated the changes were in the 'margin of error' for those test suites used. If you see the 'dramatic' changes, please point them out. We ARE interested.

If debate is welcomed, as claimed by some (not all, evidently, in reading some posts), and there are significant inconsistencies in statements, then to be a real debate those inconsistencies must be addressed directly. If not, the board and its discussions will have little relevance except to the faithful.

Dave
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The inconsistencies in statements, that I've read, relate to trying to guess what is going on since no one has actually measured any consistant, statistically significant changes. If you have better guesses, we'd love to read them.

I have no horse in this race. I have not heard EnABLed drivers. What makes this compelling is the positive anecdotal evidence reported by nearly everyone who has tried this. These reports are varied by geography and experience(audio) level, which make it unlikely for a consperacy theory. The nearly universal positive reports contained in this thread make for a significant data point in and of itself. Maybe you can find out why this is. Is everyone simply deluding themselves? Or does the emperor truly have no clothes? If you think that you're frustrated, have some compassion for Bud. He's been trying to find out whats really going on for 30+ years. :bawling:
 
#1,465
konut said:


3 assumptions which may, or not, be correct.
1. Dramatic change to one person may be subtle to another.
2. EnABL processes are easily measurable.
3. Maybe no one has used their test suites correctly.

However, the claim Bud made explicitly was that there is no FR change, repeat, no FR change, yet at the same time he specifically in his post to me linked to the tests made by soongsc as support for his position. This is but one of the contradictions, probably the most egregious. On this point I have simply been asking for clarification about the obvious contradiction, to no avail. Diversion or cynicism has been the standard response.
Click to expand...

Bud has, repeatedly, stated the changes were in the 'margin of error' for those test suites used. If you see the 'dramatic' changes, please point them out. We ARE interested.

If debate is welcomed, as claimed by some (not all, evidently, in reading some posts), and there are significant inconsistencies in statements, then to be a real debate those inconsistencies must be addressed directly. If not, the board and its discussions will have little relevance except to the faithful.

Dave
Click to expand...

The inconsistencies in statements, that I've read, relate to trying to guess what is going on since no one has actually measured any consistant, statistically significant changes.

I have no horse in this race. I have not heard EnABLed drivers. What makes this compelling is the positive anecdotal evidence reported by nearly everyone who has tried this. These reports are varied by geography and experience(audio) level, which make it unlikely for a consperacy theory. The nearly universal positive reports contained in this thread make for a significant data point in and of itself. Maybe you can find out why this is. Is everyone simply deluding themselves? Or does the emperor truly have no clothes? If you think that you're frustrated, have some compassion for Bud. He's been trying to find out whats really going on for 30+ years.
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Hats off to you, sir!

:nod:

t
 
#1,466
Re: nit-pickung

auplater said:
sorts of "fuzzy" generalizations
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At this point in time there is not much more than "fuzzy" support except for the almost unanimous excitment of everyone who has had a proper chance to audition the tech.

In the interest of getting less fuzzy data there has been encouragement for those with the kit & the experience to use it to step into the void and see what can objectively be shown, and active support for those that have stepped up to the plate -- Martin, Ron, and now SY. In each case no payment has been asked (for full disclosure Martin did decline to accept a pair on loan and just paid for them -- i did pay the shipping). Bud started a whole program of modding select drivers for no monetary compensation to seed the field so people would have a chance to experience what on the face of it is something that seems like it should have little or no effect. I have been carrying on with this.

Why? We have found something our ears tell us is a great step forward and want to share our excitement with others. The tech is free to any diyer who wants to try it. And it is a steep, sometimes frustrating climb against the mountain of convential wisdom, But so far, everyone that has been brave enuff to put polly scale to cone, has crossed a divide they are not willing to go back over.Does that not say something? Is that not statistically significant? If n isn't high enuff for you, it will be soon.

We aren't asking you to believe we are just asking that you take a chance and try it.

(i wouldn't eat potatoes until i was 11 because i didn't like them. But then i tried them. I love potatoes)

I have been listening to EnABLed drivers for 6 months now, and still everytime i provide the opportunity for someone to audition the tech i have trepidation about whether or not i am hearing things (ie hallucinating), but so far every time, in varied circumstances, with differing kit, and listeners of all levels of experience, from casual listeners to hard core audiophiles have validated what i am hearing. I'm starting to get to the point that i actually am comfortable with the tech -- to put it in the words of someone i have never met in person and who i just dropped a pair of treated drivers on (to replace his standard drivers), because i value his ears -- "it is very hard to believe that those brown spots can make such a large difference"

dave
 
#1,467
John, et al: Let's just do an actual test, OK? If the people whom I criticize as charlatans were willing to have their brain-children undergo objective and controlled subjective testing, I would be a lot more open-minded about fashion parts, magic goops, and the like. In this case, there will be fully controlled documented testing by a skeptic trained in physics and with a few decades of experience in sensory analysis.

If that's not good enough for you or if my skeptic bona fides are not clear enough, well...
 
#1,468
Re: Re: nit-pickung

planet10 said:


... to put it in the words of someone i have never met in person and who i just dropped a pair of treated drivers on (to replace his standard drivers), because i value his ears -- "it is very hard to believe that those brown spots can make such a large difference"

dave
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Is this the same individual who stated in private e-mails "I hate you (guys), I can't listen to my other speakers now"

The name Eddie Vaughn might not be familiar to all members of this forum, so in summary - he is a tubed audio and guitar amp builder with quite a few years of experience playing and listening at both ends of the performance spectrum.

It may come as no big surprise that the process under discussion here has also "enjoyed"? traffic on other forums, some populated by familiar names,


http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1429

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=18450#p18450


When it comes to subjects other than tubed amplifiers in general, or his own specifically, Eddie is very circumspect.
 
#1,472
Re: Re: nit-pickung

planet10 said:


At this point in time there is not much more than "fuzzy" support except for the almost unanimous excitment of everyone who has had a proper chance to audition the tech.

<snip>
We aren't asking you to believe we are just asking that you take a chance and try it.

(i wouldn't eat potatoes until i was 11 because i didn't like them. But then i tried them. I love potatoes)


dave
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Thanx dave... a post that states your opinion w/o sounding authoritative, demonstrates your enthusiasm for the technique w/o patronizing, no attempt to legitimize with psuedoscience... generally positive and upbeat with an invitation to join the crowd.

Since I have some ratshack 1350's or whatever the 5 1/2" er's were with the whizzers laying around, and an 18 y/o draftsman-in-training high school senior chomping at the bit to do this under a scope, I'll probably try it myself, having heard dneubecs EnABL'd system briefly.

Who knows, I may become a devotee as well... 😉

John L.
 
#1,474
Re: Re: Re: nit-pickung

auplater said:
Since I have some ratshack 1350's or whatever the 5 1/2" er's were with the whizzers laying around, and an 18 y/o draftsman-in-training high school senior chomping at the bit to do this under a scope, I'll probably try it myself, having heard dneubecs EnABL'd system briefly.
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Email me and i'll make some treatment suggestions, and it will encourage me to get the pattern done for the 1354s (a pair of which i promised GM so he could evaluate the tech).

dave
 
#1,478
Cal Weldon said:
Do you feel there would be a benefit in doing just the two front firing drivers in the Calhouns or would all four require treatment?
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[
To finish my thought:
Or is there less reason to EnABL a WR driver used with a tweeter?
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I think that we should do all 4... and the tweters too. Your gift certificate will cover that.

dave
 
#1,479
defect9 said:
wouldnt the treatment add a touch of mass to the treated driver, and cause possible phase issues?
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It adds mass. Don't know about the phase.

How much mass i'll be able to tell you soon as i am working thru a case of 16 FR125SR.

(less the margin for error caused by the weather -- i have noted differences for the same driver from the weather at least as large as the treatment (on samples of FE126/127)).

dave
 
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