Hi, thanks, I also like the mods you have done. The cardas XLR sockets seem to be a drop in replacement, or did you have to tweak the back plate somehow to be able to install them? This mod I'm sure gonna do. Bypassing the input swich is also tempting... 🙂
Mundorf silver in in oil are big @ss caps, fitting them inside nicely will need some creative thinking 🙂.
Regards,
Legis
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Hi Legis,
the mounting plate on the back is fine but not the connection to the board. I removed the existing xlr and soldered three 1mm silver wires to the board, fixed the xlr onto the chassis and finally soldered the wire to the 3 pins on the Cardas.
Much better connection and with Cardas XLR on my interconnects has a perfect fit.
I just measured the area and will have to figure how to fit them in. even the Sonicals were 3 times the size of the Sounders.
I'm also thinking of putting in 4 monster Mundof Mlytic 47000uF in place of the 12 power caps. Room may be the issue here as well.
I think I will have to remove it tommorow and check how it can be done. I will post some pictures of it when open.
These two power my B&W 802D's through a YS Audio modified tube amp. I can tell you there is no issue with control of bass. Deep and hurts the chest a bit.
Regards
AvMania
the mounting plate on the back is fine but not the connection to the board. I removed the existing xlr and soldered three 1mm silver wires to the board, fixed the xlr onto the chassis and finally soldered the wire to the 3 pins on the Cardas.
Much better connection and with Cardas XLR on my interconnects has a perfect fit.
I just measured the area and will have to figure how to fit them in. even the Sonicals were 3 times the size of the Sounders.
I'm also thinking of putting in 4 monster Mundof Mlytic 47000uF in place of the 12 power caps. Room may be the issue here as well.
I think I will have to remove it tommorow and check how it can be done. I will post some pictures of it when open.
These two power my B&W 802D's through a YS Audio modified tube amp. I can tell you there is no issue with control of bass. Deep and hurts the chest a bit.
Regards
AvMania
AvMania, you have really nice speakers, congrats! Keep us posted of your modding progression with pictures 🙂.
I decided to attach the steel nets old fashioned with bolts and nuts. I bough first some magnetic tape but it was so weak that a steel net that's surface area is mostly open did not stay attached on the the at all, not a chance. Also I was not so excited to have some very strong neodium magnets inside the case as the magnetic fields affect electricity (as the electricity creates magnetic field).
I have already started to plan different color schemes for the nets and trim pieces. Pastel blue would go nicely with front leds, and also gold is always very nice with black. Maybe I will try blue + black or gold + black or both.
I decided to attach the steel nets old fashioned with bolts and nuts. I bough first some magnetic tape but it was so weak that a steel net that's surface area is mostly open did not stay attached on the the at all, not a chance. Also I was not so excited to have some very strong neodium magnets inside the case as the magnetic fields affect electricity (as the electricity creates magnetic field).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have already started to plan different color schemes for the nets and trim pieces. Pastel blue would go nicely with front leds, and also gold is always very nice with black. Maybe I will try blue + black or gold + black or both.
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Hi Legis,
Some photos of the project. Taken using my HTC so its not great. I have to mention I'm not an electronics person by trade but been learning a bit but new to this game.
Main board on the 1st amp before removing the switch.
Sonicaps on the Amp board
a bit of crappy soldering there. I have removed this amp again and will improve on the connection before putting it together.
Back plate with Cardas XLR connector less toggle switch .
I have to say the solder on the Emotiva was a bummer. Had to reach high temps to remove it. Anyway, I'm getting better at it.
Part 2 will be removing 2 or 4 of the power res caps and replacing them with 2 x 47000uF Mlytic caps. unfortunatly there is only room for 2. would have prefered to remove all the caps and replace them with 4 x 47k uF's
Part 3 will be putting in some maybe M'dof Silver Oils instead of the Sonicap's. Has to be done as the cash is available. one upgrade per month I think.
Regards
AvMania
Some photos of the project. Taken using my HTC so its not great. I have to mention I'm not an electronics person by trade but been learning a bit but new to this game.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Main board on the 1st amp before removing the switch.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sonicaps on the Amp board
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a bit of crappy soldering there. I have removed this amp again and will improve on the connection before putting it together.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Back plate with Cardas XLR connector less toggle switch .
I have to say the solder on the Emotiva was a bummer. Had to reach high temps to remove it. Anyway, I'm getting better at it.
Part 2 will be removing 2 or 4 of the power res caps and replacing them with 2 x 47000uF Mlytic caps. unfortunatly there is only room for 2. would have prefered to remove all the caps and replace them with 4 x 47k uF's
Part 3 will be putting in some maybe M'dof Silver Oils instead of the Sonicap's. Has to be done as the cash is available. one upgrade per month I think.
Regards
AvMania
You're propably right, but testing does not cost much. 😉
They are Shengya PSM-300 mono blocks. Around 7.5 amps of bias in high bias mode, and around 2A of bias in lower bias mode, which is also optimally biased; bias voltage is around 21mV accross one emitter resistor. Fully balanced construction, 24pcs of power transistors, 120,000µF of filter capacitance (Elna) and 1,5kV transformer. THD% goes to approx. 0,0003% at the lowest into 4,5R and in higher bias the THD% does not rise almost at all towards the high frequencies in audio band, which is quite uncommon trait for power amplifiers. S/N-ratio is ~101dBFS ref. 2.83V (124dB ref. 300W/8R).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Ps. balanced amps usually have H3 dominating because balancing cancels out the even order (H2, H4 ...) harmonics. XPA-1 did however have H2 dominating as stock, but with higher bias I presume that H2 has dropped significantly and H3 dominates.
Nice work indeed! Those big milk canister sonicaps on the input stage look sexy 🙂.
I managed to desolder original parts easier by adding little wonder solder signature (it has very low melting point) on top of the original solder. Helped desoldering considerably as the original Rohs-compliant solder has high melting temp, but transfering heat to it is easier through another solder.
I will love to see how the amp looks with two Mlytics in place 🙂. I will consider something like that myself also, even though ripple voltage is quite low (IIRC around 30-45mVp-p as stock when idling).
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Legis,
I use Cardas Quad Eu and WBT 4% Silver on the contact but still had to over 300c to get it to melt.
I noticed in your comparison you said the Shengya had tighter bass or something like that. From what I have been told this could be due to the ability of the Elna caps. The Mlytic HC's are supposed to be the one of the fastest caps around (I'm told) and this is why I'm trying to put them in.
My aim is to check if the basic design is sound and cheaper parts are used due to cost issues, to get it to its very best by improving (on my budget) what the manufacturer compramised on. This is me...
If I can get my hands on the M'dorf Silver Oils it would be an interesting upgrade, but I may leave that for later to figure out what difference there is due to the new power caps.
I use Cardas Quad Eu and WBT 4% Silver on the contact but still had to over 300c to get it to melt.
I noticed in your comparison you said the Shengya had tighter bass or something like that. From what I have been told this could be due to the ability of the Elna caps. The Mlytic HC's are supposed to be the one of the fastest caps around (I'm told) and this is why I'm trying to put them in.
My aim is to check if the basic design is sound and cheaper parts are used due to cost issues, to get it to its very best by improving (on my budget) what the manufacturer compramised on. This is me...
If I can get my hands on the M'dorf Silver Oils it would be an interesting upgrade, but I may leave that for later to figure out what difference there is due to the new power caps.
Those two solders you mentioned are my other favourites besides wonder solder. I always keep my solder station on max or almost max temp setting (usually 450-480C) and for bigger jobs I use the biggest tip available so it stores some energy. Still, desoldering is not easy sometimes. With high temp setting one has to apply heat usually only for a very short period and components don't heat up much at all, and it also vaporizes some of the flux. But soldering style is more of a matter of taste and habit than science. 🙂
Yes the difference in bass could be due all the little details like caps, bias and the circuity design itself. I would predict that it's mainly due from higher local feedback used in ShengYa. I have got the impression that XPA-1 uses less negative feedback as the design relies much on balanced construction as a source for linearization of the circuit (which is actually a very good choice imo). I like the bass of both amps equally, their nature is just little different.
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Yep love the look, I might just copy it for my DIY , after all they did so themselves , copying Gryphon .🙂
In regards to balanced line , isn't it better to have higher H3 than H2/4 ..?
Not really, but with very low THD I think it does not really matter whether the H2 or H3 dominates. One cannot really choose if one wants to cancel the even order harmonics with highly symmetrical true balanced construction.
Gryphons really seems to share many similarities 🙂. Georgeous amps...
Just picked up the Mlytic Caps (they are huge) and samples of the Silver oil. Should be interesting work tommorow trying to fix it all up.
WIP. Trying to find a place for the New Caps.
They are Huge...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They are Huge...
Wow, I like the size of those caps 😀, very nice! Do you plan to install them as pure extra, without desoldering any original caps? I have also thought that I would install extra capacitance in that same empty space, but have never got to it. Twist the caps' leads together to minimize the loop inductance...
Thanks for that. I was a bit scared of the extra capacity so I removed 4 (40,000uF) of the existing and adding 2 x 47,000uF. Should push it to around 170K uF. Hopefully not too much for the transformer.
Successfully installed 2 Mlytic 47000uF in each amp. connected using 2 x 1.33mm solid core copper wire used as earth in houses, as could not source any good cables. I will try some silver 1.5mm's later.
How does it sound? After a few hours I can say that I like what it has done. The glary treble which a lot of systems have and mine had some (Tube preamp helps) has totally vanished. The highs are smooth and fluid. No grain at all. I did not realise until now it was. I heard a piano playing where I have never heard before. seemed to have popped out from being in the mix.
The midrange vocal and horns are fantastic. Detail has improved. When listening to Jazz at the Pawnshop, I now hear individual voices clearly and able to pick up the different people speaking. female voices have improved remarkably. Earlier I had to swap in Mullard tubes on the Preamp to get this kind of detail and smoothness.
Bass has tightened up even more. Very fast and detailed. At one stage I was wondering if the 802's woofers would pop.
This mod has brought the system to a level I have not heard before. I was at the HiFi Show in Melbourne on Saturday and none of the systems on demo could touch it. I would say the Magapane's had an edge in midrange transparency but not as an overall system. Even B&W's demo room with the new 802Di's and Classe amps sounded quite garish (trebly and grainy) in comparison.
Now I'm thinking of swapping out the Sonicap's for Mudorf Silver in Oil's. Must check the budget.
Once the board is installed, the Caps are hidden, therefore no pics. The earlier pics are how they are installed.
The upgrade to me is worth it.
How does it sound? After a few hours I can say that I like what it has done. The glary treble which a lot of systems have and mine had some (Tube preamp helps) has totally vanished. The highs are smooth and fluid. No grain at all. I did not realise until now it was. I heard a piano playing where I have never heard before. seemed to have popped out from being in the mix.
The midrange vocal and horns are fantastic. Detail has improved. When listening to Jazz at the Pawnshop, I now hear individual voices clearly and able to pick up the different people speaking. female voices have improved remarkably. Earlier I had to swap in Mullard tubes on the Preamp to get this kind of detail and smoothness.
Bass has tightened up even more. Very fast and detailed. At one stage I was wondering if the 802's woofers would pop.
This mod has brought the system to a level I have not heard before. I was at the HiFi Show in Melbourne on Saturday and none of the systems on demo could touch it. I would say the Magapane's had an edge in midrange transparency but not as an overall system. Even B&W's demo room with the new 802Di's and Classe amps sounded quite garish (trebly and grainy) in comparison.
Now I'm thinking of swapping out the Sonicap's for Mudorf Silver in Oil's. Must check the budget.
Once the board is installed, the Caps are hidden, therefore no pics. The earlier pics are how they are installed.
The upgrade to me is worth it.
Thanks for your thoughts AvMania. I would have liked to see on FFT how the extra capacitance affected filtering of the line frequency and it's harmonics, but I quess you can't measure the amp?
But interesting findings, did you mod both amps the same time or did you compare un-capped with capped amp at first? I'm also temped to increase the total capacitance with some high quality caps. It would be also interesting to measure the ESR of the original caps, like with this meter: http://www.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htm#thumb . Think I will order that meter at somer point. I would predict that the original caps in XPA-1 have quite low ESR due to the low ripple that I have measurred, but of course presumably they cannot compare to high end caps like Mundorfs.
But interesting findings, did you mod both amps the same time or did you compare un-capped with capped amp at first? I'm also temped to increase the total capacitance with some high quality caps. It would be also interesting to measure the ESR of the original caps, like with this meter: http://www.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htm#thumb . Think I will order that meter at somer point. I would predict that the original caps in XPA-1 have quite low ESR due to the low ripple that I have measurred, but of course presumably they cannot compare to high end caps like Mundorfs.
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Hi Legis,
I did it one at a time. Checked standard against the modified. The standard seemed better when I first checked on a single speaker/channel. It was more trebly and I thought was better but when I listened to it a bit more I understood that the highs were more prominent and the overall sound was skewed towards the upper end and was masking a lot of detail in the mid and lows. The mod was more neutral and allowed more info in the music to flow through. The sound on the Tamborine in Jass at the Pawnshop track 4 was very natural, like he was in the living room playing it right. You could hear more of the detail in when the skin on it was hit compared to before where it sounded more thin. mid range detail is quite amazing. I have checked playing Nora Jones, Ella Fitzgerald and they sound amazing.
I was worried that the change would remove the attack the stock amp had but it did not. Listening to the Super Trio (FIM) label, I can tell you the gut kicking base has improved immensely. I'll get a third party who knows my system very well to also listen in and give his comments.
I have an oscilloscope but never used it. Bought an old one off eBay some time back to check digital signals but it did not work. If it would do and you PM me the instructions I will try to measure it.
I will check the link and see if it’s something I will go if for, but to me it’s not the measurements but the final sound that matters.
I did it one at a time. Checked standard against the modified. The standard seemed better when I first checked on a single speaker/channel. It was more trebly and I thought was better but when I listened to it a bit more I understood that the highs were more prominent and the overall sound was skewed towards the upper end and was masking a lot of detail in the mid and lows. The mod was more neutral and allowed more info in the music to flow through. The sound on the Tamborine in Jass at the Pawnshop track 4 was very natural, like he was in the living room playing it right. You could hear more of the detail in when the skin on it was hit compared to before where it sounded more thin. mid range detail is quite amazing. I have checked playing Nora Jones, Ella Fitzgerald and they sound amazing.
I was worried that the change would remove the attack the stock amp had but it did not. Listening to the Super Trio (FIM) label, I can tell you the gut kicking base has improved immensely. I'll get a third party who knows my system very well to also listen in and give his comments.
I have an oscilloscope but never used it. Bought an old one off eBay some time back to check digital signals but it did not work. If it would do and you PM me the instructions I will try to measure it.
I will check the link and see if it’s something I will go if for, but to me it’s not the measurements but the final sound that matters.
I used the M-Lytic 47,000uF 80v specs below
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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