hello all,
i need new speakers, so i want to ask your opinions about this 2 DIY Kits.
The baffle at the ekta grande looks like a promise for a good soundstage.
The 7741 use the newer illuminator chassis.
Ekta Grande
Ekta-7741
i want to go for passive xover this time, even i own a pair of hypex 123 amps which would reduce the cost.
they are a good tool when its comming about making the xover fast and easy and active speakers are always great,but aside of this really big benefits im not so happy.
My room> 5,22m in lengh and 3,85 in width
the speakers are placed left and right of a lowerboard where a 65" TV is. (yes,not perfect, i know it has an impact on the reflections)
on the ceiling i have 18 pcs 50x 100cm Basotec panels which are 5cm thick.
on the opposite site of the speakers is the couch and above that a 240cmx140m acoustic picture which is filled with 5cm basotec panels.
so the treble is well damped, maybe a little to much 😉
Music, well all kind music except jazz.(classic is really rare, maybe one or 2 times in a year.
what i like on speakers, details and more details, a good seperation between instruments.silent things to hear that get lost on cheap shoutboxes.
my past system was a 4 way active seas excel system. with an 35cm baffle.
So, what do you think are the pro and cons of those 2 Kits ?
i need new speakers, so i want to ask your opinions about this 2 DIY Kits.
The baffle at the ekta grande looks like a promise for a good soundstage.
The 7741 use the newer illuminator chassis.
Ekta Grande
Ekta-7741
i want to go for passive xover this time, even i own a pair of hypex 123 amps which would reduce the cost.
they are a good tool when its comming about making the xover fast and easy and active speakers are always great,but aside of this really big benefits im not so happy.
My room> 5,22m in lengh and 3,85 in width
the speakers are placed left and right of a lowerboard where a 65" TV is. (yes,not perfect, i know it has an impact on the reflections)
on the ceiling i have 18 pcs 50x 100cm Basotec panels which are 5cm thick.
on the opposite site of the speakers is the couch and above that a 240cmx140m acoustic picture which is filled with 5cm basotec panels.
so the treble is well damped, maybe a little to much 😉
Music, well all kind music except jazz.(classic is really rare, maybe one or 2 times in a year.
what i like on speakers, details and more details, a good seperation between instruments.silent things to hear that get lost on cheap shoutboxes.
my past system was a 4 way active seas excel system. with an 35cm baffle.
So, what do you think are the pro and cons of those 2 Kits ?
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I wouldn’t place my bets on such an expensive speaker without decent polar measurements. All the same, you can observe that the 7741 might have a DI discontinuity at 5kHz. Which should not surprise one, Troels seems to have picked the HF crossover just below 5kHz and even a 4” mid starts to beam eventually.
So what I see is yet another (expensive!) exercise that might perform well on a lot of aspects, but not on the one we find to be important nowadays. Room interaction. Did you look any further for other designs?
So what I see is yet another (expensive!) exercise that might perform well on a lot of aspects, but not on the one we find to be important nowadays. Room interaction. Did you look any further for other designs?
Ekta Grande XT25, 0-90deg, common mic position measurement with mic distance 1m, at the height between tweeter and the mid. This is measurement of my pair which was my very first diy project.
More details: https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/ektagrandeupg/
More details: https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/ektagrandeupg/
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Since you are using FA123, so I guess the major differences are Illuminator and Revelator speakers.
I would go to Illuminator + Be tweeters for personal preference. Illuminator are bit more dynamic to my ears. I'll also choose the front-end-port, since I always place my speakers close to the wall.
I would go to Illuminator + Be tweeters for personal preference. Illuminator are bit more dynamic to my ears. I'll also choose the front-end-port, since I always place my speakers close to the wall.
Worlds apart. What is it with this obsession for expensive parts while real important stuff is neglected? And why would one put a speaker designed for a free position (full baffle step correction, broad dispersion) with the back against a wall? Sorry if I step on toes, don’t want to stop people spending on their dreams. But at least have a hunch there is actually a proven approach.
this is an interresting information i didn't know. tell me more about it. so what kind of speaker form/baffle should be suitable for "back against a wall" ?
to my knowledge (which is basic only) bafflestep correction might be ignored if a speaker is designed for bass roomgain which compensate the step. but for this i need a wide baffle. (the classic 33-35 cm baffle)
but i have to say, i didn't thought about this/such point/s when i looked for kits.
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You have to account for two major issues. First: most speaker designs have full baffle step compensation. Find designs that either have been designed for your setup (back against the wall) or have the option in the crossover for reduced baffle step compensation. Of course you also could EQ the system after final setup.
Second: control lateral early reflections (also from the front wall against which the speakers stand). They tend to ‘smear’ the stereo sound field. You can do so by picking systems with controlled or even high directivity. The more serious among us pick full range cardioid or dipole systems to accomplish minimal lateral reflections. But be sure to pay attention to directivity control.
Second: control lateral early reflections (also from the front wall against which the speakers stand). They tend to ‘smear’ the stereo sound field. You can do so by picking systems with controlled or even high directivity. The more serious among us pick full range cardioid or dipole systems to accomplish minimal lateral reflections. But be sure to pay attention to directivity control.
The baffle step compensation and phase alignment can always be post calibrated since OP is going to adapt FA123.
Second: in a relative small room, unless speakers are placed at least 60cm away from any wall, port reflection is going to play a role. In Ekta Grande design, there is indeed a front-port and sealed box design. That is the box option I would choose in the similar situation.
pic from Troels's Ekta Grande page
(somehow, the sealed box ratio in this fig does not match the top finished box in white. In top figures, the white boxes seem taller. maybe the box size is modified to adapt the sealed design?)
Second: in a relative small room, unless speakers are placed at least 60cm away from any wall, port reflection is going to play a role. In Ekta Grande design, there is indeed a front-port and sealed box design. That is the box option I would choose in the similar situation.
pic from Troels's Ekta Grande page
(somehow, the sealed box ratio in this fig does not match the top finished box in white. In top figures, the white boxes seem taller. maybe the box size is modified to adapt the sealed design?)
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as far as i read, the ekta grande got an upgrade where he made it 10cm smaller in height (from 120 to 110 cm) and no more rounded enclosure.
this was on user feedback.
thats why this looks different.
port, well as the 7741 port isn't special from lengh im sure it can be put on the front side instead of the back.
it seems both models tend to go down a bit in tweeter region. (grande more then 7741) this would mean i need to correct the tweeter xo as my living room is full of basotec.
this was on user feedback.
thats why this looks different.
port, well as the 7741 port isn't special from lengh im sure it can be put on the front side instead of the back.
it seems both models tend to go down a bit in tweeter region. (grande more then 7741) this would mean i need to correct the tweeter xo as my living room is full of basotec.
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Ports have to be quite close to a wall, 10-15cm or so, for them to really change the tuning (lower, because the air in the gap poses an extra load). The rest is boundary gain and comb filtering due to the reflecting wave from the front wall.
As I understand, the OP wants a passive design. All the same, the DSP in the Hypex modules could prove beneficial.
As I understand, the OP wants a passive design. All the same, the DSP in the Hypex modules could prove beneficial.
This is an older thread but I thought I would update it with relevant data since archived discussions often get searched by those digging deeper for information.
My measurements show a fairly uniform off-axis performance of the Ekta 7741. The actual mid-range/ tweeter crossover is in the 4kHz region.
The OP was interested in knowing if there are performance differences between the Scan-Speak Revelator line vs the Illuminator product line? These are use-condition questions and the answer is, it depends. I noticed Troels often mixes together drivers from several Scan-Speak product lines – Discovery, Revelator, Illuminator and Ellipticor when designing Scan-Speak based loudspeakers.
Troels’ kits are often criticized for using costly drivers and crossover components. Looking to other industries, IBM (among others) demonstrated that the quality and reliability of a system is a function of the quality and reliability of its components and sub-systems. I concede that having expensive components does not guarantee best in class performance. On the other hand, there are no silk purses made from sows’ ears.
The premium paid to Jantzen Audio covers their components, their fulfillment value-add and Troels’ design work.
For those DIYers who just want to build one and be done, kits are a great way to go and Troels has done a lot of them.
My measurements show a fairly uniform off-axis performance of the Ekta 7741. The actual mid-range/ tweeter crossover is in the 4kHz region.
The OP was interested in knowing if there are performance differences between the Scan-Speak Revelator line vs the Illuminator product line? These are use-condition questions and the answer is, it depends. I noticed Troels often mixes together drivers from several Scan-Speak product lines – Discovery, Revelator, Illuminator and Ellipticor when designing Scan-Speak based loudspeakers.
Troels’ kits are often criticized for using costly drivers and crossover components. Looking to other industries, IBM (among others) demonstrated that the quality and reliability of a system is a function of the quality and reliability of its components and sub-systems. I concede that having expensive components does not guarantee best in class performance. On the other hand, there are no silk purses made from sows’ ears.
The premium paid to Jantzen Audio covers their components, their fulfillment value-add and Troels’ design work.
For those DIYers who just want to build one and be done, kits are a great way to go and Troels has done a lot of them.
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With high end speaker prices going through the roof building a kit using good quality parts has never made more sense.
And Troels does not just make expensive kits.For example you can buy the SBA 861 2.5 way crossover kit for 185 Euro plus drivers for about another 200 Euro.
And Troels does not just make expensive kits.For example you can buy the SBA 861 2.5 way crossover kit for 185 Euro plus drivers for about another 200 Euro.
Some of Troels' kits tend to be critized by those with a bit of technical knowledge about speakers for using overly expensive components in combination with modest design. This follows from him being more of an experienced subjectivist that has picked up a few technical things along the way rather an engineer following the relevant engineering principles. However, as far as I am aware, none of his designs could be reasonably described as offering a poor technical performance which isn't necessarily the case for some of his competitors.
For a beginner building one of Troels' designs is likely to be a safe and reasonable place to start. For the same budget there will almost certainly be designs offering a slightly improved technical performance but how would a beginner reliably identify or create such a design? How much value is there in a slightly improved technical performance for a beginner's first build?
In the case of home audio the big question for (sound) quality is what is sufficient for various forms of distortion to become inaudible in use? If a speaker is appropriately designed this often means expensive prestige parts have nothing to offer over well designed standard parts. In the case of well designed prestige parts (by no means all when it comes to home audio hardware) the clean operating range may be a bit wider and the parts may be easier to use in a design.
When it comes to reliability very expensive often doesn't mean better. The problem is that very expensive parts are manufactured in very small numbers with both the design and manufacturing likely being less well sorted compared to cheaper higher volume parts. Low price budget parts often have all sorts of corners cut in order to reduce the cost of design and manufacture and again good quality standard parts may the best option.
Of course hobbyists may want to use expensive prestige parts in their designs because they want "the best" and not what is sufficient. It's hard to argue against for a hobby which neatly brings us back to Troels' designs.