Hi Vlad and all
I have been using 'VLC player', Windows 10, and USB connected Creative Sound Blaster external sound card.
Can I assume that if the volume control in the VLC is left at 100, and the Effects and Filters panel is left unchecked, that the digital (audio anyway) bit stream will remain unchanged?
Pardon me for being repetitious, but my logic is a little fuzzy...ha ha
Thanks, Peter
I have been using 'VLC player', Windows 10, and USB connected Creative Sound Blaster external sound card.
Can I assume that if the volume control in the VLC is left at 100, and the Effects and Filters panel is left unchecked, that the digital (audio anyway) bit stream will remain unchanged?
Pardon me for being repetitious, but my logic is a little fuzzy...ha ha
Thanks, Peter
To try to get bit perfect audio under any Windows you would need to have the Windows sound output at 100% as well as the VLC. Just use the DAC volume. You will also want to open VLC and open the "Volume Mixer" and check that it is indeed at 100. (Assuming Win10 has Volume Mixer)
Even doing that, bit perfect is not guaranteed. I did a quick google of Windows 10 and didn't find anything about bit perfect audio. They would probably advertise it if it existed, I imagine.
So the short answer is no. Which is why the problem of some albums bad / some albums good is so strange and I have asked you to do a some things to troubleshoot.
At this point I don't know what you have tried, or if you have had any improvement . But if the problem is still there I would listen for good/bad on known good/bad tracks with DAC headphone out and see if there is still a difference. And try the MPC above. It is a portable program so you can just install to a directory and delete it when you are done w/o registry issues.
And you have all three effects and filters tabs turned off? I'm sure you do, just trying to rule out any weirdness.
Even doing that, bit perfect is not guaranteed. I did a quick google of Windows 10 and didn't find anything about bit perfect audio. They would probably advertise it if it existed, I imagine.
So the short answer is no. Which is why the problem of some albums bad / some albums good is so strange and I have asked you to do a some things to troubleshoot.
At this point I don't know what you have tried, or if you have had any improvement . But if the problem is still there I would listen for good/bad on known good/bad tracks with DAC headphone out and see if there is still a difference. And try the MPC above. It is a portable program so you can just install to a directory and delete it when you are done w/o registry issues.
And you have all three effects and filters tabs turned off? I'm sure you do, just trying to rule out any weirdness.
The major issue I see here is the Creative sound card. The whole marketing point of most Creative soundcards is the internal DSP with tons of programmable effects to enhance the gaming experience. I bought one of those expensive Creative USB cards a few years ago, and the bundled software does activate a Windows background process that always inserts a DSP filter on the sound path. Nice for games and action movies, but total horror for classical music reproduction trough my 2 channel tube amplifier. I resorted to disable all the custom Creative background tasks and control panels with the Windows registry editor, and the sound was much better. I ultimately bought a inexpensive Fiio E10K external USB DAC with line and headphone outputs. Not the best DAC around but miles ahead from the "gaming" DACs for Hi-Fi listening. It does not need any driver, the stock internal Windows audio USB driver does all. No sound manipulation at all at the Windows driver layer.
I had mentioned earlier for him to try good/bad sounding tracks via his computer's sound card and see if there is still a difference. If that makes it better that would lend credence to your idea that the DAC is subpar.
Hi Vlad, The laptop sound card has a severe roll-off below 60 Hz, so not usable. The headphone jack on the ext. sound card would likely use the same DAC circuitry, sound changing speakers would just introduce another variable IMHO.
Thanks pcan;
I will investigate your suggestion regarding the "Fiio E10K external USB DAC", but could you elaborate on how you disabled the Creative background tasks? I did receive a software bundle with the external card, but as far as I know, I am not using it.
Thanks Vlad, pcan, and everyone for your time and patience, Peter
Thanks pcan;
I will investigate your suggestion regarding the "Fiio E10K external USB DAC", but could you elaborate on how you disabled the Creative background tasks? I did receive a software bundle with the external card, but as far as I know, I am not using it.
Thanks Vlad, pcan, and everyone for your time and patience, Peter
Hi again Vlad;
Sorry for being a slow learner, but I am obviously in way over my head.
To confirm, the 3 tabs in VLC player were not checked, the last tab, IIRC, was a sound sync delay, and this was left at zero. VLC volume at 100
BTW; when I turn the volume knob on the ext sound card, the slider in the windows 10 volume mixer, moves, but the VLC volume stays at 100%.
Having tried all this, I still find radical difference in tone balance between various flac files.
Sorry for being a slow learner, but I am obviously in way over my head.
To confirm, the 3 tabs in VLC player were not checked, the last tab, IIRC, was a sound sync delay, and this was left at zero. VLC volume at 100
BTW; when I turn the volume knob on the ext sound card, the slider in the windows 10 volume mixer, moves, but the VLC volume stays at 100%.
Having tried all this, I still find radical difference in tone balance between various flac files.
No worries. I didn't want you to use the computer out permanently, just to check for tinny/bad sound and to compare "good" to "bad" and see if they sound the same. If they do your DAC would be at fault.
The DAC out and DAC headphone out probably have the same DAC but different output stages. A comparison like I wrote above would help here. Not for permanent use just to try to find the source of the weirdness.
I would try downloading the newest creative drivers for the card. According to the creative site your card will do native ASIO. Once you install the drivers it should appear as Creative USB ASIO or something like that in Foobar or JRiver preferences.
The DAC out and DAC headphone out probably have the same DAC but different output stages. A comparison like I wrote above would help here. Not for permanent use just to try to find the source of the weirdness.
I would try downloading the newest creative drivers for the card. According to the creative site your card will do native ASIO. Once you install the drivers it should appear as Creative USB ASIO or something like that in Foobar or JRiver preferences.
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ALso, In VLC, go to Tools-> preferences -> all (bottom left) -> Audio -> filters and make sure all are unchecked
The ASIO driver is a good idea, worth a try. To disable background tasks in Windows 7, click Start and type msconfig in the search box, then uncheck all the unwanted startup software and restart. You can also use the registry editor. Click Start ant type regedit in the search box. On the left pane, expand and right-click HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run ; export the key for backup purposes. Now select and delete the unwanted lines on the right pane. There are several more startup keys in Windows registry, but I found the Creative software only in this one.
Another thing: If you want bit perfect audio you will to have both player and DAC/Windows audio at 100. Then control volume with your equalizer or preamp
Hi Vlad, pcan and all;
Yes, it makes sense to me to run all digital volumes a 100%. Can I assume that this allows the digital signal to pass without having to change (bit perfect?) I have already been using the pre-amp as the volume. It is a motor driven analogue pot. I have used the Sound Card Volume to compensate for some tracks that are recorded extremely loud, thinking I could avoid clipping down stream, but this was not based on any necessity.
I have just read, regarding ASIO on Wiki, that windows prior to Vista, truncated 24 bit samples to 16. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but it can't be good!
Right clicking the Speaker icon (mixer) in the bottom toolbar gave me a troubleshooting option. After selecting my ext. sound card and running a trouble search, a turn off audio enhancements window appears. None of the 4 processes were selected, however, the master disable box was also not checked. I of course selected 'disable all enhancements'.
Next discovery; At the top of this window, beside the Enhancements tab, there is an Advanced tab. In the upper pane, it allows for the sample rate and bit depth selection. My (mixer) had the 16 bit 48 kHz (dvd quality) selected. I changed this to 24 bit 96 kHz (studio quality) (highest).
I am about to do some listening tests, but I suspect that this change may not be relevant to the flac files I am listening to (?)
I am beginning to think that windows 10 may have made some improvements in regards to the audio processing, but is this just wishful thinking?
As far as CPU use and background running programs, I have found a number of 'things' running but will need some expert guidance as to what can be stopped or removed. The cpu use seems to hover around 3% with chrome , file explorer, and a few other things running. I watched as VLC player was running; it increased to 11 to 15%. It jumped to 30% as I fast forwarded a video (1080p). Is this OK?
Sorry if this is too much 'dumbness' at once!
Yes, it makes sense to me to run all digital volumes a 100%. Can I assume that this allows the digital signal to pass without having to change (bit perfect?) I have already been using the pre-amp as the volume. It is a motor driven analogue pot. I have used the Sound Card Volume to compensate for some tracks that are recorded extremely loud, thinking I could avoid clipping down stream, but this was not based on any necessity.
I have just read, regarding ASIO on Wiki, that windows prior to Vista, truncated 24 bit samples to 16. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but it can't be good!
Right clicking the Speaker icon (mixer) in the bottom toolbar gave me a troubleshooting option. After selecting my ext. sound card and running a trouble search, a turn off audio enhancements window appears. None of the 4 processes were selected, however, the master disable box was also not checked. I of course selected 'disable all enhancements'.
Next discovery; At the top of this window, beside the Enhancements tab, there is an Advanced tab. In the upper pane, it allows for the sample rate and bit depth selection. My (mixer) had the 16 bit 48 kHz (dvd quality) selected. I changed this to 24 bit 96 kHz (studio quality) (highest).
I am about to do some listening tests, but I suspect that this change may not be relevant to the flac files I am listening to (?)
I am beginning to think that windows 10 may have made some improvements in regards to the audio processing, but is this just wishful thinking?
As far as CPU use and background running programs, I have found a number of 'things' running but will need some expert guidance as to what can be stopped or removed. The cpu use seems to hover around 3% with chrome , file explorer, and a few other things running. I watched as VLC player was running; it increased to 11 to 15%. It jumped to 30% as I fast forwarded a video (1080p). Is this OK?
Sorry if this is too much 'dumbness' at once!
Windows 10 is still bad especially when resampling: Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Windows 10 "Audio Stack" / DirectSound Upsampling
If I understand you used the Windows Mixer to change sample rate? If so that is known to not work well; see above.
So, no, you can't assume that it is bit perfect. The safe thing to do is just use ASIO. There is just no way to know where and how the resampling is taking place without being the developer.
You were probably resampling in windows from 44.1 to 48 kHz under windows all along. That might be the source of your trouble, but like I have said the only way to guarantee bit perfect is to use ASIO, KS, and WASAPI
I didn't know this before but JRiver does video as well.
My computer is at 8-10% when playing a FLAC in foobar.
If I understand you used the Windows Mixer to change sample rate? If so that is known to not work well; see above.
So, no, you can't assume that it is bit perfect. The safe thing to do is just use ASIO. There is just no way to know where and how the resampling is taking place without being the developer.
You were probably resampling in windows from 44.1 to 48 kHz under windows all along. That might be the source of your trouble, but like I have said the only way to guarantee bit perfect is to use ASIO, KS, and WASAPI
I didn't know this before but JRiver does video as well.
My computer is at 8-10% when playing a FLAC in foobar.
if you really, really, really don't want to use ASIO, try setting the sampling rate to whatever you are playing: 44.1 for most audio files, 48k for most movies. That might improve things without getting bit perfect playback. But you would have to do that every time you change formats, whereas with JRiver you can just set it to resample and forget it. Then you can play whatever file you want and not reset anything.
Movie sound thru 2 speakers is always a compromise. It was edited, and mixed ( and quiet possibly the music was recorded) in a multichannel format. When you download a ripped movie it usually comes with the original multichannel Dolby digital or DTS sound file. Sometimes it comes with the original 2 channel down mix, sometimes it doesn't. If it does you mayhave to tell VLC to use the stereo mix. If it doesn't then VLC will do the down mix by combining tracks automatically. This will not be the same as the original stereo down mix which is actually done by a professional from Dolby. If you want good movie sound you need more channels. At the very least, a centre channel. Then a sub and last and least, the surrounds. If you can listen to a movie on a multichannel system that has a receiver that will switch to stereo (most home theatres do) try it and hear the difference.
Digital volume control is not a bad thing, if done properly. I don't think I'd trust Windoze to do it. 🙂 In fact, I don't. But I do use digital volume control in my media player, as it's done in 64 bit, then reduced to 24 bits for output to the soundcard. No damage done at all. I use ASIO drivers that bypass windoze sound.
A little DSP can help, too. You just want to know what is being done, as Vladimir and others have mentioned.
A little DSP can help, too. You just want to know what is being done, as Vladimir and others have mentioned.
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