Yikes! I like the added options you bring to the table, but I'm afraid that beast will not work well with at least one of the parameters from the title of this thread!
Head office in Taipei, Taiwan. Factory moved to China.[/QUOTE]
You're welcome!
To sine143 and the OP what sort of music do you listen to? My bass heavy dance tracks got to 6dB down from a sine wave with Whirlpool by Leon Bolier reaching -2.5 due to the continuous tone in one place. This will determine what voltage will cook the coils. 60 volts.. well that will only give a measly 133dB in corner.
To the OP don't worry about the size of 'The Beast' too much. As the woofers are only 8'' and need 100 litres total internal, the box will likely stand just over 1m and have width and depth in the mid thirties. The fabric grill will give it a similar look and size to the JTR Triple 12 mid-highs. See the pictures posted of the 25 Hz anarchy tapped horn? A bit like the main speakres in his home theatre setup. Either that or build a 4 woofer version. Any decent tapped horn will likely be bigger. I saved size by A: only going to the upper 30s in Hz, B:suggesting corner placement and C: using the power handling of multiple drivers to increase what you can put in and hence output from the box.
To the OP don't worry about the size of 'The Beast' too much. As the woofers are only 8'' and need 100 litres total internal, the box will likely stand just over 1m and have width and depth in the mid thirties. The fabric grill will give it a similar look and size to the JTR Triple 12 mid-highs. See the pictures posted of the 25 Hz anarchy tapped horn? A bit like the main speakres in his home theatre setup. Either that or build a 4 woofer version. Any decent tapped horn will likely be bigger. I saved size by A: only going to the upper 30s in Hz, B:suggesting corner placement and C: using the power handling of multiple drivers to increase what you can put in and hence output from the box.
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Oh, I see. So basically about the same dimensions as the sizing I already mentioned.
But in this case, it is using 6 drivers. Using 6 drivers per box, if I go dual, I don't think I can get those from abroad... shipping 12 drivers will be insanely expensive.
Placement is also limited. The reason I went with the idea of 2 subs in the first place. One sub would be located in the middle of the front wall. The other, a little over 1m from the corner.
Also, there cannot be any exposed drivers, as the one near the corner will see a lot of people (mainly students) near it... I'm afraid exposed cones would just be an invitation to play with them.
But in this case, it is using 6 drivers. Using 6 drivers per box, if I go dual, I don't think I can get those from abroad... shipping 12 drivers will be insanely expensive.
Placement is also limited. The reason I went with the idea of 2 subs in the first place. One sub would be located in the middle of the front wall. The other, a little over 1m from the corner.
Also, there cannot be any exposed drivers, as the one near the corner will see a lot of people (mainly students) near it... I'm afraid exposed cones would just be an invitation to play with them.
Well as the output of the 6 drivers is probably more than you'll need. You could do 2 four driver versions. You can space them out to smooth response. If you can get the tang bands locally instead of wasting money shipping the inferior build quality (though a bit more efficient) MCM drivers. BTW putting a sub just over 1m from the corner is a recipe for cancellations off the wall at 80Hz. Either move it at least 8-10 feet from the corner or right in the corner.
To protect the drivers from students, you can do mini grilles over the openings. Or one of the tuba designs which are more economical on driver quantity but need to be bigger for the same max output, though not huge. Even face the box into the corner so its right up close. Your room is large enough thatt this will probably work quite well. Only you can experiment though with what works best in your room. I find corners add punch and efficiency you don't get elsewhere, though can sometimes sound boomy in small rooms.
To protect the drivers from students, you can do mini grilles over the openings. Or one of the tuba designs which are more economical on driver quantity but need to be bigger for the same max output, though not huge. Even face the box into the corner so its right up close. Your room is large enough thatt this will probably work quite well. Only you can experiment though with what works best in your room. I find corners add punch and efficiency you don't get elsewhere, though can sometimes sound boomy in small rooms.
I band passed that song between 35 and 100Hz and normalised.
So -3dB from a sine wave at the tuning of my sub design, yes that would probably cook the drivers quite well compared to other music.
Ok, after 5 pages of thread, I'm at least closer to what I want to start building.
I can't do sealed boxes, and huge tuba subs are not possible with my environment.
I'm now debating between 2 constructions for my big cement box in the school lobby/living/dining/ room, dimensions of 10m x 5m, and has a 3m high ceiling. (33' x 16', 10' ceiling). Placement right in the corners is impossible, as I have shelves on the walls (so, the shelves themselves could be considered as corners maybe?)
Either it would be :
A: the double folded subs, using single drivers (2 subs that's 2 drivers in all)
B: the 4-driver vented boxes (that'd be more expensive using 8 drivers in total).
I can't do sealed boxes, and huge tuba subs are not possible with my environment.
I'm now debating between 2 constructions for my big cement box in the school lobby/living/dining/ room, dimensions of 10m x 5m, and has a 3m high ceiling. (33' x 16', 10' ceiling). Placement right in the corners is impossible, as I have shelves on the walls (so, the shelves themselves could be considered as corners maybe?)
Either it would be :
A: the double folded subs, using single drivers (2 subs that's 2 drivers in all)
B: the 4-driver vented boxes (that'd be more expensive using 8 drivers in total).
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Why is sealed ruled out?
Sound quality-wise, I think it'd be a best all-rounder for matching your arrays.
You mentioned there's already a 12" sub. What's the lacking? Is it the SPL, extension, or the coherence with the main speaker?
TH is good in SPL and extension, but I've also seen people's comments about the sound quality is not up to the best front loaded horns. I'm not 100% sure it'll match your agile line array well enough.
Subjectively, other than a proper front loaded horn & OB, sealed is the best in quick start & stop.
Sound quality-wise, I think it'd be a best all-rounder for matching your arrays.
You mentioned there's already a 12" sub. What's the lacking? Is it the SPL, extension, or the coherence with the main speaker?
TH is good in SPL and extension, but I've also seen people's comments about the sound quality is not up to the best front loaded horns. I'm not 100% sure it'll match your agile line array well enough.
Subjectively, other than a proper front loaded horn & OB, sealed is the best in quick start & stop.
Oh darn.. here I go again, doubting myself!
I initially ruled out sealed front firing subs because of the student traffic in front of one sub, but it's true I could add a metal grill that would protect them.
And you are right. My arrays have awesome transients. So many little drivers acting together are lightning quick to produce sounds. So, if my subs are lagging behind, it would not feel balanced.
My present Yamaha sub (it's actually a 10", I was mistaken thinking it was a 12") is lacking in cohesion and extension a bit. It's not terrible, but it could be much better.
I initially ruled out sealed front firing subs because of the student traffic in front of one sub, but it's true I could add a metal grill that would protect them.
And you are right. My arrays have awesome transients. So many little drivers acting together are lightning quick to produce sounds. So, if my subs are lagging behind, it would not feel balanced.
My present Yamaha sub (it's actually a 10", I was mistaken thinking it was a 12") is lacking in cohesion and extension a bit. It's not terrible, but it could be much better.
Well the Tuba 18 is 18 x 19 x VARIABLE inches. The Autotuba is 14 x 32 x VARIABLE inches, so they are quite small, are the cheapest on drivers. Not quite as much output for the size or as low as the 4 driver vented boxes. They get to about 40Hz indoors. My Kappalite 3012lf bass reflex box is 18 x 18 x 22 inches and plays a bit lower and more efficient than the Autotuba but uses an expensive driver.
The 4 driver reflex box should play louder than my 3012lf reflex box but need more power to do so. Multiple drivers will sound better and be more efficient than one driver working hard.
I ruled out the Table Tuba because it is probably too big at 15 x 60 x VARIABLE inches or 30 x 30 x VARIABLE inches, although will play to the upper 20s.
Why did I rule out sealed? Not as much low frequency output for the power, size and number of drivers required. Personally I wouldn't use a sealed design apart from to go really low in confined spaces, but that's just me.
One last option is two vented 12s of which you passed me the T/S Parameters. Is your Yamaha 10 vented or sealed?
The 4 driver reflex box should play louder than my 3012lf reflex box but need more power to do so. Multiple drivers will sound better and be more efficient than one driver working hard.
I ruled out the Table Tuba because it is probably too big at 15 x 60 x VARIABLE inches or 30 x 30 x VARIABLE inches, although will play to the upper 20s.
Why did I rule out sealed? Not as much low frequency output for the power, size and number of drivers required. Personally I wouldn't use a sealed design apart from to go really low in confined spaces, but that's just me.
One last option is two vented 12s of which you passed me the T/S Parameters. Is your Yamaha 10 vented or sealed?
Well here's the 1pi (wall loaded) impulse data for the 4 driver vented box. Ignore the small fine waverings on the line graph or anything above 100Hz on the coloured graph. You are not sending full range signal to the subwoofers!
Bear in the mind that room resonances will do far more damage to the 'fast bass' than any individual type of enclosure design, I know this from trying my Autotuba and reflex box in different environments. They sounded good and tight in some places (such as the car and my new flat), and in others the low bass seemed to reverberate and smear together.
Bear in the mind that room resonances will do far more damage to the 'fast bass' than any individual type of enclosure design, I know this from trying my Autotuba and reflex box in different environments. They sounded good and tight in some places (such as the car and my new flat), and in others the low bass seemed to reverberate and smear together.
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Still no news from Tang Band on this side.
I'll give them an extra couple of days, write again and if still no news, then it will be going on to plan B.
I might start small and get a few drivers from the local factory, the one that bjorno gave specs for. Just to get my feet wet, and try a couple of different designs.
BTW, my Yamaha is vented... strangely so.... When I looked inside, the port tube had holes along its length.
I'll give them an extra couple of days, write again and if still no news, then it will be going on to plan B.
I might start small and get a few drivers from the local factory, the one that bjorno gave specs for. Just to get my feet wet, and try a couple of different designs.
BTW, my Yamaha is vented... strangely so.... When I looked inside, the port tube had holes along its length.
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I agree vented box can be very good, too. One of the best bass sound in my memory is a pair of big vented box with 2x 15" woofers.
And yes it's true that room acoustics can do a lot more to the final result than the speakers in bass reproduction.
However, in an ordinary living room, i.e., in the real world, a set of best positions for subs are almost always occupied by other stuff which got higher priority by other members in the family/functions of the home. Yeah, how pathetic for sterephiles but it's inevitable.
It's really a hard task to get the best solution among all these troubles. So, take it as a journey, there's no end. It stops when you stop.
It's a good thinking route to take room acoustics more seriously when designing subs. And this opens the possibilities to infinite
Ever thinking cardioid or dipole?
Say, by common sense, OB speakers do many things well but wouldn't save you any space. But guess what, "can be relatively very small" is one of the major reason I use OB, including subs. Interesting huh. (ah, this is not a good example because I 'have to' stick with existing big drivers... )
No matter what, take it easy, take your time.
Things get better completion if done slowly. Better in Chinese - 事緩則圓.
And yes it's true that room acoustics can do a lot more to the final result than the speakers in bass reproduction.
However, in an ordinary living room, i.e., in the real world, a set of best positions for subs are almost always occupied by other stuff which got higher priority by other members in the family/functions of the home. Yeah, how pathetic for sterephiles but it's inevitable.
It's really a hard task to get the best solution among all these troubles. So, take it as a journey, there's no end. It stops when you stop.
It's a good thinking route to take room acoustics more seriously when designing subs. And this opens the possibilities to infinite
Ever thinking cardioid or dipole?
Say, by common sense, OB speakers do many things well but wouldn't save you any space. But guess what, "can be relatively very small" is one of the major reason I use OB, including subs. Interesting huh. (ah, this is not a good example because I 'have to' stick with existing big drivers... )
No matter what, take it easy, take your time.
Things get better completion if done slowly. Better in Chinese - 事緩則圓.
As I remember the cubic style and vented Yamaha subwoofer in the store, it was promoted with a small piece of paper hanging in front of the port. The paper was popped into violent dances in sync with the bass notes.
It's a very interesting sight and a pretty good presentation. I also remember it seemed they got patent(s) on this stuff.
Not sure but I'd guess it's very likely they use some kind of technique to tune the box utterly low, or at a frequency that can deliver the most impact in demo. And then compensating the 'odd' tuning by the 'patented' electrical circuits., etc.
If this is not pleasing you, why not take it apart and utilise the components? Maybe it's doable to 'reconfigure' the driver and box combo into a more healthy and normal vented box.
It's a very interesting sight and a pretty good presentation. I also remember it seemed they got patent(s) on this stuff.
Not sure but I'd guess it's very likely they use some kind of technique to tune the box utterly low, or at a frequency that can deliver the most impact in demo. And then compensating the 'odd' tuning by the 'patented' electrical circuits., etc.
If this is not pleasing you, why not take it apart and utilise the components? Maybe it's doable to 'reconfigure' the driver and box combo into a more healthy and normal vented box.
Well, got news from Tang Band offices.
They refered me to a local distributor so I started to get excited.... Not for long.
A local company that sells its products more expensive than abroad. Not nice. For example, the W3-1878 is $170 in the USA, but $220 here.
We have another brand here, called Usher, and locally, they are half the price of items abroad.
I love to support local, but not when they play this kind of game.
They refered me to a local distributor so I started to get excited.... Not for long.
A local company that sells its products more expensive than abroad. Not nice. For example, the W3-1878 is $170 in the USA, but $220 here.
We have another brand here, called Usher, and locally, they are half the price of items abroad.
I love to support local, but not when they play this kind of game.
Thanks CLS, I know I'll get there. I'd write you something back in Chinese, but I can speak better than I can write!
Tim,
I linked an 8" previously, but I have no idea if it is any good... I'm thinking of buying a couple and do a sealed test box at about 77 liters, than EQ to get a bit more bottom extension.
I've looked up the fw300, but it is not available from Fountek right now.
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