DS-15 Class-D Modul with much Trouble and used in a lot of Models from Harman//JBL

[tiefbassuebertr]

For this modul (PCB card naming "104-DS15000V-E") - go to
DS-15 104-DS15000V-E Digital amplifier module on 100surplus.com
and
Harman Kardon JB?L Infinity Subwoofer PCB Card 051 B00012A E 104 DS15000V E | eBay
I want the name of manufacturer, a schematic diagram and the reason for a lot of trouble in some subwoofer-models so as the right modification steps to get more reliability.
In follow subwoofer modules, which I know, this class-d card is in use
1) Harman Sub-TS11
2) JBL CSS10
3) JBL Sub-160
3) Harman TS2BQ
Follow German threads mentioned the trouble with it:
Heco Sub 30A Kondensatoren platt?, Elektronik (Stereo&Surround) - HIFI-FORUM
DS-15 104-DS15000V-E nachbau, Elektronik (Stereo&Surround) - HIFI-FORUM
I am a tech and have a JBL SUB 160 that sits and screaches.
Reperatur - aber wie? TS2BQ Harman/Kardon, Subwoofer - HIFI-FORUM
[gelöst] Wer kennt diese Bauteile (Feldeffekttransistor)? - Mikrocontroller.net
Thank you for your help.
Unfortunately this thread don't provide the right information:
I am a tech and have a JBL SUB 160 that sits and screaches.
The discrete topology must actually be easy - the IC from last image is a TL072 in a SO-8 outline.

 

[irribeo]

Not identical because 300W version, but looks family, ElectroVoice sxa180 ds300 amp module

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Not identical because 300W version, but looks family, ElectroVoice sxa180 ds300 amp module

Thank you - good advice.
Concerning the SXA-180 I have found this:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/bad-full-wave-rectifier.123368/
http://elektrotanya.com/electro-voice_sxa180-18_sch.pdf/download.html
unfortunately without a detailled circuit describtion resp. theory of operation from the DS-300
The DS-300 is also in use by the model "THX Select S300" from Magnat
MOSFET´s ersetzen im Digitalverstärker eines Subwoofers - Mikrocontroller.net
Defekten Class D Subwoofer-Verstärker umbauen auf Class A ? - Mikrocontroller.net
and by the model Definitive Technology, model Pro Sub 1000
ProSub 1000 | Definitive Technology
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...finitive-technology-pro-sub-1000-defaced.html
By all manufacturers isn't mentioned the second source manufacturer from the DS-300.
As mentioned in one of the threads, even Magnat don't get service-information like troubleshooting for the DS-300. But this I will check out, maybe this helps to find out the actually manufacturer from China.
Can you inform me about the exact naming of the DS-300 PCB-card (maybe to find in the area of the ferrite coil and the both bipolar elcaps) ?

 

[irribeo]

Only thing on it except digital subwoofer DS-300 and datecode is:
Delta(filled triangle)
circled SW
76VOA

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Only thing on it except digital subwoofer DS-300 and datecode is:
Delta(filled triangle)
circled SW
76VOA

Both harman and electro voice inform me, that the manufacturer of the mentioned class-D modules is top secret (absolutely confidential). The service documentation for all used class-D modul (service hints, troubleshooting and so on) are present, but only for internal use (developing/evaluation) and not for customers and service-centers.
Such things are often to observe in cases of bad engineering/bad circuit designs.
Have a look to images and the circuit in post #2.
There are to find an output filter used as low pass filter (24db/oct). with follow devices:
1) two inductors, one with toroidal core (DS-300) resp. transformer core from SMPS transformer (DS-15) and one inductor with ferrite core
2) two low cost bipolare (NP) electrolytics (elcaps), 10uF/100V with bypass SMD chip capacitor without value
I doubt, that this configuration works correct over a long time.
How I have to determine the correct values for the necessary low pass filter and the right material of ferrite/core ? Is this independent of the driver impedance character or not ?
Thank you for advices and appropriate weblinks.

 

[doctormord]

Well, just the values from the schematic irribeo posted. If it works for 300W it will work for yours as well.

Change the NP caps for MKP to make it more ruggedized. If the inductors measure good, keep them, otherwise change them for toroids with iron-powder-core.

What exactly is broken with your amp?

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

The most interesing URLs for service instructions of HKTS-11 and DS-15, which I have found, are this one from Netherland and Sweden:
http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/97666/1
Circuits Online - Forum - Harman Kardon SUB-TS11
http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/116912
Harman/Kardon sub ger inget ljud - Ljud
http://www.hifigalleri.dk/forum/musikanlaaeg/29101-harmankardon_sub_ts11
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-220-4129.html
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-93-7496.html
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-225-2360.html
http://forum.electronicwerkstatt.de...n_sub_ts11_knacken_im_sub-t132638f22_bs0.html

 

[doctormord]

There's no help if you don't answer the questions.

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Well, just the values from the schematic irribeo posted. If it works for 300W it will work for yours as well.

Change the NP caps for MKP to make it more ruggedized. If the inductors measure good, keep them, otherwise change them for toroids with iron-powder-core.

What exactly is broken with your amp?

Except the MOSFETs IRF640/9640 and the 10uF elcaps I don't know.
Under
caisson de basse jbl css10 - Forums de Abcelectronique
I have found the schematic of DS-15. Just curious is the fact, that the schematic naming is DA-150, but the images of the PCB looks exactly like the DS-15, which is also in use in Harman's TS-11
After checking in detail the mentioned URL from Netherland and study the just right circuit I will start with replace. The main reason for the often to observe damage class-D module seems to be the 10uF electrolytics, the glue with semiconductor behaviour arround the inductors and 10uF capacitors and the burned capacitors arround the power supply board (go to last image here) through the absence of heatsinks for the TO220 semiconductors. If it is so really, then the circuit design itself isn't the reason for the often occured damage.
The service manual of JBL's CSS10 with DS-15 schematic is here:
http://elektrotanya.com/jbl_css10_amplifier_subwoofer_sm.pdf/download.html
Service Manual Heco Sub 30A
http://elektrotanya.com/heco_sub_30.pdf/download.html
More URLs:
Teleservice Forum Dépannage Electronique :: Sub woofer Harman Kardon TS2BQ + urine de chat

 

[doctormord]

Hmm, then i'd replace the the filter caps with MKP (beside the rest broken stuff) and scope the output. Do you have a running channel to compare with?

 

[irribeo]

Here 10uF's were not a problem, I did replace them.
Do check the little smd's, I had one amp with open r1 and ~220k r43 (was supposed to be 2k2, 222).

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Circuit description wanted of this very common discrete Class-D Modul

What kind of class D is this discrete circuit topology, used in Magnat, EV, Harman/JBL, Heco and many more ? Is this circuit very special ? Who is the developer and what patents are pended ?
Thank you for advices.
Under the keyword "discrete class-d" and google image search I have found this one:
http://www.faqssys.info/tag/class-d/

 

[kevinkr]

Tief it's not necessary to create multiple threads on essentially the same topic; reported thread merged with this one. Please don't do this again.

Edit: Read the forum rules here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/site-announcements/167561-diyaudio-rules.html

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Both harman and electro voice inform me, that the manufacturer of the mentioned class-D modules is top secret (absolutely confidential). The service documentation for all used class-D modul (service hints, troubleshooting and so on) are present, but only for internal use (developing/evaluation) and not for customers and service-centers.

A call to a formerly employee at Magnat provides the wanted address of the supplier of all mentioned class-D modules:
https://cn.linkedin.com/in/torres-lau-55189859
China Audio factory,supplier for speaker,amplifier,DJ Equipment.
But he don't know, whether the developement (circuit design) of that class-D modules was also performed there.

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

according the images from first posting under
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip...da-need-help-boston-hps-10se.html#post4672507
this class-D modul ("104-DS15000V-E") is also inside in Boston's HPS-10SE

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

there are any interesting news concerning the repair service of this modul - go to
Heco Sub 30A Kondensatoren platt?, Elektronik (Stereo&Surround) - HIFI-FORUM

(go to the last postings).

 

[blackbrayn]

Harman Kardon Sub-TS2

Just repaired a Sub-TS2 from Harman Kardon , i my case the sub was powering fine , but did not exit the stand-by mode no matter what , found the problem was a diode(D302) on the preamp board , i had DC 18v before the diode and nothing after , it was a 1n4148 glass type found cracked!?? .
I also changed the 2 capacitors from the D-class amp module(DS-15 104-DS15000V-E) , the glue holding them down started coroding the whole area and also mounted 2 heatsinks for the TIP35/36 on the power board.
Could not find a service manual for the SUB-TS2 , but SUB-TS15 seems to be mostly identical down to the component numbers , i worked from those schematics.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Just repaired a Sub-TS2 from Harman Kardon , i my case the sub was powering fine , but did not exit the stand-by mode no matter what , found the problem was a diode(D302) on the preamp board , i had DC 18v before the diode and nothing after , it was a 1n4148 glass type found cracked!?? .
I also changed the 2 capacitors from the D-class amp module(DS-15 104-DS15000V-E) , the glue holding them down started coroding the whole area and also mounted 2 heatsinks for the TIP35/36 on the power board.
Could not find a service manual for the SUB-TS2 , but SUB-TS15 seems to be mostly identical down to the component numbers , i worked from those schematics.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

I want to look the images, but the URL
https://postimg.org
don't goes open.
Please upload the jpg files here on diyaudio.com.
On this forum the pictures are not deleted as at imageshack or photobucket after a certain amount of time. This is a great advantage.
Thank you for your efforts.

What kind of class D is this discrete circuit topology, used in Magnat, EV, Harman/JBL, Heco and many more ? Is this circuit very special ? Who is the developer and what patents are pended ?
Thank you for advices.

any news?

 

[Baldin]

Topology: Triangle generator/oscillator based on TL072 (IC1b) and simple prefilter fb (so not self oscillating). The oscillator is actually a square wave run through a cap/high pass filter to get the trangle.

 

[Eva]

With both feet on the ground:
Topology: Born to be junk, without current limiting, without short pulse suppression, bipolar electrolytic output filter capacitors, when these start to dry or there is a cold solder joint the module gets all blown. Single part failure results in destruction of the assembly. Powered by Harman Kardon group.

I find motivation in that junk from (no longer reputable) groups to create circuits where no single part failure results in assembly destruction.

tiefbassuebertr: Feel free to install anything else in place of these modules.