If you know what you're doing and know what to look for, you can also do it without an entire Klippel system.
Yes, that's what I do, as I don't have a Klippel. Anyway, it is the greatest tool for loudspeaker building that has been invented so far. If you consider how much an echo free room costs, even dead cheap.
Maybe learn a bit about it instead of bashing it.
Maybe learn a bit about it instead of bashing it.
What would be the most efficient way of measuring Force factor and Compliance as a function of displacement... i.e. BL(x) and Cms(x)... ?
I was under the impression that this was something that really could not be measured well before Klippel...
j.
I think it's important to make clear what we are talking about.
If we are talking about measurements, I think of Klippel's NFS system.
Not their system that checks BL(x), Kms(x) etc etc
I see these as two totally different systems and they also provide a very different purpose.
Btw, if for what you just mentioned, all what is needed is a laser devices for about $1500—2000 or so (I forgot the model, it's in the ARTA manual) and some calculations and you can do it yourself.
Or do it the poormans way, which I described in another topic. (I can look it up if you want)
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Maybe consider that some people here (quite a few) have well over 15-20 years of experience on a professional or very high hobby level?
Working on hundreds of designs.
Take a example how Martijn Mensink measured his first passive cardioid systems about 10 years ago.
I happen to know him very well and also happen to know how close his own measurements where compared to and anechoic chamber as well as Erin's NFS system.
If you think that Klippel and anechoic rooms are the only options (FYI, I have seen both), there is a very long road ahead of you of understanding.
A very very long way.
I've never seen design choices ranked in terms of audible impact. I suppose that's because no one will agree and different combinations of drivers and designs may influence that ranking.
For me - flush mounting is not top of the priority list. It is something I can and do apply because I prefer the form over the function. In other words I don't bother measuring both flush and surface mounted to see if there is an listening "A/B" test difference. I just flush mount them because it looks better.
Yes flush mounting may put new DIYers off due to complexity (needing a plunge router / circle jig) and that some people go overboard on their advice... i.e. "if you don't flush mount you will destroy the design" or "if you widen the baffle by 2 cm and not flush mount, you will destroy the design" etc...
For me - flush mounting is not top of the priority list. It is something I can and do apply because I prefer the form over the function. In other words I don't bother measuring both flush and surface mounted to see if there is an listening "A/B" test difference. I just flush mount them because it looks better.
Yes flush mounting may put new DIYers off due to complexity (needing a plunge router / circle jig) and that some people go overboard on their advice... i.e. "if you don't flush mount you will destroy the design" or "if you widen the baffle by 2 cm and not flush mount, you will destroy the design" etc...
No frankly. Hifi and listening music is my hobby from 40 yo. Diy from only half of the 90s and I purchased my first table saw and router and circle jig perhaps 2 or 3 years ago, I do not remember exactly as I am NOT a 3 designs a years hobbyst.
Making recessed circles is not that hard (heigth is the most challenging to make with precision). my router costed 40 euros. My table saw 125 euros : first cheapest price... for non demanding hobby only.
What stop me the most is the lack of video to make more than a monkey coffin : i.e. recessed baffles, how to use a round over bit without a table, etc !
The photograph for instance I look at T Gravsen site were not usefull as a beginner of table saw and router.
Again we are not all gifted the same with hand skills. Some have no problems to make molds, apply bits on already rounded Ikea bowl, etc !
Making recessed circles is not that hard (heigth is the most challenging to make with precision). my router costed 40 euros. My table saw 125 euros : first cheapest price... for non demanding hobby only.
What stop me the most is the lack of video to make more than a monkey coffin : i.e. recessed baffles, how to use a round over bit without a table, etc !
The photograph for instance I look at T Gravsen site were not usefull as a beginner of table saw and router.
Again we are not all gifted the same with hand skills. Some have no problems to make molds, apply bits on already rounded Ikea bowl, etc !
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Apparently from above flush mounting provides much more benefit for the treble than the bass. To keep weight lifted onto poles under 50 lb, I'm not going to mount my CD+horn at all. Provide a lip on the front of the bass reflex case to locate the front flange of the horn. Provide a 1/3 circle bracket to hold the CD up off the case. I'm not playing on stage here, no roadie or MC is going to knock the CD+horn off onto the floor. This is not an earthquake risk zone. 15 pounds saved, to be lifted separately.
I'm really much more worried about internal reflections. Peavey went to a lot of trouble to fill the bass reflex SP2(2004) with precisely folded & located elastomer sheets. My first design case had 2 dimensions of 24", which reinforces 550 hz peak. Next try follow golden rule ratios.
I had $30000 in tools stolen during covid 2020. I'm not in the mood to buy some expensive tools I am going to use once. The perp still lives 6 blocks from here. Sabre saw is multipurpose. 3000 hours in repaired sound equipment went to the fence. Why I'm building some REALLY UGLY speakers to replace the SP2-XT. Everything Peavey dynaco & shure was stolen. Perp left all my home projects amps; they didn't look professional enough.
I'm really much more worried about internal reflections. Peavey went to a lot of trouble to fill the bass reflex SP2(2004) with precisely folded & located elastomer sheets. My first design case had 2 dimensions of 24", which reinforces 550 hz peak. Next try follow golden rule ratios.
I had $30000 in tools stolen during covid 2020. I'm not in the mood to buy some expensive tools I am going to use once. The perp still lives 6 blocks from here. Sabre saw is multipurpose. 3000 hours in repaired sound equipment went to the fence. Why I'm building some REALLY UGLY speakers to replace the SP2-XT. Everything Peavey dynaco & shure was stolen. Perp left all my home projects amps; they didn't look professional enough.
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30 000 usd of tools stolen... bumer ! Sad world. that's everywhere at diferent degrees. Still privileged guys we are when I see the fultility of our hobby (I do not say the tools were for the hobby, looks like more a life of saving to buy tools) ..
At least on a moralistic side futil hobby it is, ethic being a different thing! I can not affoard a car today but not really need it though but car miss me.
So what about recessings ? Loudpeaker serie from T Gravsen had fans and have not flush-monted drivers iirc. But the caps of just a driver on a standalone cabinet cost more than my router and table saw together. So it is all about cost management project. When time is not a priority you can save monney !🙂
At least on a moralistic side futil hobby it is, ethic being a different thing! I can not affoard a car today but not really need it though but car miss me.
So what about recessings ? Loudpeaker serie from T Gravsen had fans and have not flush-monted drivers iirc. But the caps of just a driver on a standalone cabinet cost more than my router and table saw together. So it is all about cost management project. When time is not a priority you can save monney !🙂
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Absent the ease of simulation that's how I'd approach it too. There's no way I'd measure flush vs surface and perform listening tests. I'd go with what I thought looked best or what my tools/skills would allow. My PA style woofers look terrible surface mounted but if I had sexier drivers like Scan-Speak or one of those brands I'd personally prefer the look of surface mounted. I just think it looks neat when those aluminum surrounds break up the flat baffle surface. They also tend to have high quality open frames that would help with surface mounting too.
Have to confess I've done it.
Heck, I've measured and a/b listened to so many dang things that are said to matter, that i should probably see a shrink......
Well, it's not that bad I guess.....as my DIY style is to build prototypes and modify them based on measurements and listening.
I usually try a bunch of modifications on each proto stage. I enjoy the discovery & invention aspect of this process.
And i really enjoy woodwork, really enjoy making measurements, and really enjoy the DSP work that goes in to the tuning.
Did I say I really enjoy this hobby ?
And i didn't even mention the best part...the sound !!
(So maybe, no shrink needed after all Lol)
All this is the main reason I don't strive much over fine construction details....until a detail proves to me it matters audibly.
I hate to repeat, but so many things I read about on DIY as being important...I just can't find any verification for....wish I could really.
It's always great to find something that clearly matters. It can be be very frustrating when seemingly important things don't seem to matter.
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To repeat, the impact of these discontinuties is directly relkated to the wavelength of that disruption.
In a tweeter it can be millimetres, in a subwoofer maybe metres.
dave
This is pretty much where I'm coming from - with the added issue that it seems that I'm afraid of power tools and rubbish at using them, which may be an unfortunate feedback loop.
I baled out of 'hifi' after I sold the ProAcs because it seemed to me that the whole industry had disappeared up its backside with snake oil and 'we all know'.
A 'good value' monoblock carved from solid aluminium was the price of a midrange BMW sedan. That's not good value any more than $10k for a carbon fibre hood/bonet upgrade in your daily driver is.
Thankfuly we have DSP and cheap DACs are pretty good and we have class D amplifiers now. So I can dispense with having a whole pile of LCR components and a soldering backlog, have a multiway amp/DAC/DSP solution, and just play. Even if I 'have a nasty retail habit' and buy drivers on a whim, it takes a while to deploy them - especially with my woodworking (and - it seems - painting) skills. I can do hobby time stuff without the financial burden that buying finished kit entails, and the big picture changes from complete swap-out of speaker approach and construction (and room interaction) dwarf changes in cables (let alone mains cables for the last metre from the cheap and nasty (and entirely in-spec) socket on the wall - WTF?), and even amplifiers and DACs.
So for me a difficult woodworking solution is tantamount to 'wishful thinking' and I might as well want a Ferrari. Which would probably not be practical for shopping at Tesco anyway. I'm an IT guy but there is a crossover in speaker construction beyond the physics, the crossover (even in DSP), and furniture production. I'd love to be good at furniture and woodworking. Those of you with extensive shops, your own CNC, table saws, band saws, dust extraction - even good routers - please spare a thought for those of us that have a dremel and a plunge router attachment but are scared of it, and can only use it outside when its dry and light if not sunny so the MDF dust blows away.
I have an addictive hobby. I don't search for the ultimate truth, but a way to try more truths, big picture. I like the science and understanding but I don't like accepting groupthink, and yes - if there are shortcuts that can make it easier to try more truths in less time, then I'm game.
So, I don't really care about 'small stuff' which puts a premium on big to small impacts. There's lots of good drivers out there at hobby-accessible prices. Good enough multichannel source is achivable without bankruptcy. LCR crossovers are expensive and time consuming but an interesting sideline if I want to gift or sell a 2-way that's no longer interesting and that I won't keep the drivers from for future use. Finding an MVP approach to 2- and 3-way experimentation is, I hope, achievable - but woodworking is a hurdle for anyone short of space and time.
Does anyone here really search for the ultimate fettled design? I imagine that if I found it - then I'd still make crappy speakers with different design approaches, just to try.
That is not the same as actually measuring real drivers, in real enclosures, in a real room - and thinking about the cost in time to do the optimisation. Which might or might not work, in room. Its a model.
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There's only one golden rule for recessing drivers with a router. Cut the recess correctly, before cutting the hole.
So how do you do it? Cutting wood is noisy and dusty?
I can see how one might do it with a 3D printer and a small desktop device, but that work of art did not come to be that way.
My current approach is to see if I can automate a CAD program to do what I want and send it to someone with CNC. I'm left with gluing, and sanding away my gluing failures, and finishing.
If living in a flat just do it in a friend's garden, anyway outside (I saw outside in someone family house)
CNC is costy
CNC is costy
You get peaks and notches from the baffle sides, or step changes from the way Troels does time alignment - and the room.
Its not that simple. Do you have evidence for the order of magnitude compared to the other effects?