sorry for bumping an old thread: did not want to create a separate thread on the similar topic.
my Alpair 10.3Ms have arrived much earlier than expected and my amp build is far from complete. so i'm thinking of running in the drivers in the meantime.
i've at the moment a Creative desktop speaker rated at 1W RMS. can i use this [the amp setup in the speaker] to perform the driver run in keeping in mind Mark's method. if yes, then it would be a very convenient option for me to connect them to my personal music player to play some music/radio.
my Alpair 10.3Ms have arrived much earlier than expected and my amp build is far from complete. so i'm thinking of running in the drivers in the meantime.
i've at the moment a Creative desktop speaker rated at 1W RMS. can i use this [the amp setup in the speaker] to perform the driver run in keeping in mind Mark's method. if yes, then it would be a very convenient option for me to connect them to my personal music player to play some music/radio.
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thanks Dave!
beautiful Alpairs running-in with some smooth jazz! courtesy : Tunein radio
jazz sounds soulful [not necessarily because of Alpairs at the moment] at low volume in the silence of the night. far right is the tiny amp board from the Creative speakers!
Note: when i first touched the speaker terminals with the [speaker out] wire from the amplifier there was very light audible 'blip' : amplifier was in off state. this happened on both the drivers. this did not reoccur after that.
beautiful Alpairs running-in with some smooth jazz! courtesy : Tunein radio
jazz sounds soulful [not necessarily because of Alpairs at the moment] at low volume in the silence of the night. far right is the tiny amp board from the Creative speakers!
Note: when i first touched the speaker terminals with the [speaker out] wire from the amplifier there was very light audible 'blip' : amplifier was in off state. this happened on both the drivers. this did not reoccur after that.
Attachments
FWIW, a simulation of the parameters planet10 posted is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/290986-impedance-chart-need-explanation-8.html#post4713803
Doubt if you could hear these differences with music.
break in is way overstated, especially by people selling stuff 😉 So by planet10's example T/S changes don't affect much, show us your 0 and 40000 hour frequency response measurements with a calibrated microphone with proven repeatability that hasn't been moved even 0.1 millimeters from its original position and the breakin "myth" might have some real evidence for it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/290986-impedance-chart-need-explanation-8.html#post4713803
Doubt if you could hear these differences with music.
break in is way overstated, especially by people selling stuff 😉 So by planet10's example T/S changes don't affect much, show us your 0 and 40000 hour frequency response measurements with a calibrated microphone with proven repeatability that hasn't been moved even 0.1 millimeters from its original position and the breakin "myth" might have some real evidence for it.
I talked with a Tang Band engineer last month. I asked him about break in period. He told me to play 24 hours at 25-30% of driver's rated power handling. When I mentioned that some will say it takes hundreds to thousands of hours, he was just shaking his head....
I bought 4 Fane 12-50's for a mobile disco in 1980.
They got hammered right out of the box.
I needed to use them not leave them on a bench running in for many hours.
They sounded good straight away and still sounded good a few years later when I sold the disco on.
My advice is just use them.
They got hammered right out of the box.
I needed to use them not leave them on a bench running in for many hours.
They sounded good straight away and still sounded good a few years later when I sold the disco on.
My advice is just use them.
I've had just a few drivers pass through my shop and I am convinced that long break-in is a myth, or at best part of psychoacoustics.
Bottom end break-in can be accomplished by manually moving the the cone to +/- Xmax a few times. If you are reluctant to try this, one hour of a test tone at Fs to Xmax will do it.
As far as the driver sweetening over time, it depends. A metal driver isn't going to break-in. Period. Micro break-in of the suspension over time may take a few hours at best. Paper drivers do take a bit of time to break-in, but a few days at best.
My opinion is based on comparing my personal drivers that have hundreds to thousands of hours on them compared to drivers fresh out of the box. If you are worried about hurting your new and moderately expensive drivers, to this: Get some girl-and-a-guitar, jazz, small band classical. Run the average volume up to ~70dB at 8' or so. Let the speakers run for maybe 25 hours or so. Break-in will be complete. Starting with the volume barely audible increasing to normal listening levels over hundreds of hours is absolutely unnecessary.
Bob
Bottom end break-in can be accomplished by manually moving the the cone to +/- Xmax a few times. If you are reluctant to try this, one hour of a test tone at Fs to Xmax will do it.
As far as the driver sweetening over time, it depends. A metal driver isn't going to break-in. Period. Micro break-in of the suspension over time may take a few hours at best. Paper drivers do take a bit of time to break-in, but a few days at best.
My opinion is based on comparing my personal drivers that have hundreds to thousands of hours on them compared to drivers fresh out of the box. If you are worried about hurting your new and moderately expensive drivers, to this: Get some girl-and-a-guitar, jazz, small band classical. Run the average volume up to ~70dB at 8' or so. Let the speakers run for maybe 25 hours or so. Break-in will be complete. Starting with the volume barely audible increasing to normal listening levels over hundreds of hours is absolutely unnecessary.
Bob
Concur fully with Bob
I am convinced that manufacturers use these "extended break in myths" so your ears fully acclimatize to the sonic signature of their product be it a loudspeaker. overpriced resistor or capacitor.
Had only 2 exceptions 1 Tannoy Canterbury SE 15 inch coaxial(Took 50 hours to reach final Fs with cloth impregnated accordian surround & 1 spare Peerless 831857 that remained unused for a decade and took a bit over 40 hours. ALL the rest took half that time. So many I've lost count. Micro breaks in the paper type drivers sweetening the sound? Can't really tell but could be.
I am convinced that manufacturers use these "extended break in myths" so your ears fully acclimatize to the sonic signature of their product be it a loudspeaker. overpriced resistor or capacitor.
Had only 2 exceptions 1 Tannoy Canterbury SE 15 inch coaxial(Took 50 hours to reach final Fs with cloth impregnated accordian surround & 1 spare Peerless 831857 that remained unused for a decade and took a bit over 40 hours. ALL the rest took half that time. So many I've lost count. Micro breaks in the paper type drivers sweetening the sound? Can't really tell but could be.
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The break in scam is as old as Methusela. I had a friend who used to sell hifi. After he retired he shared a lot of the dirty little secrets of sales technique with me.
One of the most effective with dissatisfied customers who heard a system in an acoustically optimised and treated enviroment sometimes with hidden eq. They get it home and are quite disappointed. They are told guess what? "Oh don't worry their new speakers". "They will sound fantastic after they break in" Give it x amount of hours. Those hours being calculated from the amount of predicted free time that individual would have outside of work to void the 7 day cooling off return consumer protection laws in Aust. If a slightly aware customer queried this "Oh don't worry you are a valued customer there is no way we won't look after you" These people fully knew that the acual sonic signature would hardly change at all. Why? because this person after so many years experience KNEW! And they told me so!
If they were ever caught out just continue pushing the break in rhetoric until even the scammed customer was duped into thinking these sales people actually BELIEVED it.
To me audio is a search for musical truth. The only problem is there are currently 7.5 billion versions of "truth"
One of the most effective with dissatisfied customers who heard a system in an acoustically optimised and treated enviroment sometimes with hidden eq. They get it home and are quite disappointed. They are told guess what? "Oh don't worry their new speakers". "They will sound fantastic after they break in" Give it x amount of hours. Those hours being calculated from the amount of predicted free time that individual would have outside of work to void the 7 day cooling off return consumer protection laws in Aust. If a slightly aware customer queried this "Oh don't worry you are a valued customer there is no way we won't look after you" These people fully knew that the acual sonic signature would hardly change at all. Why? because this person after so many years experience KNEW! And they told me so!
If they were ever caught out just continue pushing the break in rhetoric until even the scammed customer was duped into thinking these sales people actually BELIEVED it.
To me audio is a search for musical truth. The only problem is there are currently 7.5 billion versions of "truth"
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Driver break-in is certainly real with some drivers. I have on a numbe rof occasions listened to 2 pr speakers, 1 with broken in drivers one with fresh. It is easy to dicern the difference.
dave
dave
Not saying it doesn't exist just making people aware of how it is abused and misused by unconscionable peddelers of mediocrity.
Even I'm guilty of a bit of duplicity. I said this individual who I gleaned this insider information from was my friend. I pretended to be his to gain intel
Like the saying goes keep your friends close and your enimies even closer.
Even I'm guilty of a bit of duplicity. I said this individual who I gleaned this insider information from was my friend. I pretended to be his to gain intel
Like the saying goes keep your friends close and your enimies even closer.
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True, it can be abused. Likewise trust. And you do get that, both in Hi-Fi shops selling commercial gear, and in some cases, with drive units. It is often used to promote a self-fulfilling prophesy. No surprises there, you see variations in many industries. 'twas ever thus, and probably always will be.
Be that as it may, there are sound engineering reasons why certain units need to be brought into their design operating window in a certain way. This is a function of the driver type, the materials and adhesives used in their suspensions, the cone material and the way the cones are intended to operate (for e.g. a degree of work-hardening in certain alloys) etc. for drivers that produce most of their BW through resonance or flex of the diaphragm (such as all moving coil wideband drivers to varying extents depending on the operating objectives for the design). So some common sense needs to be applied. Belt a big pro-audio woofer with high-output LF signals to loosen up the suspension & bring it to the operating window = fine. They are limited BW devices primarily intended to move a lot of air. Hit a (by comparison) delicate wideband driver, which has an utterly different set of design priorities & goals with the same sort of signal, and you will not do it any favours whatsoever, especially if it has a reasonably long stroke suspension. None of this is startling, of mystical, it's basic mechanical engineering. Unfortunately what sometimes occurs is that a few people who automatically declaim comments like 'break-in' to be a 'scam' tend to forget, in their ardour, that there are or may be some wider mechanical factors involved which they have either forgotten or not bothered to consider.
In most cases, it's actually quite easy to measure the effects of driver break-in in bald T/S terms; you'll usually see F0 drop along with a shift in Q and Vas, the degree depending on the specific driver type. Very common, applies to the majority of MC drivers, and a lot of that is done within a few seconds or minutes, with the rest gradually settling depending on how the unit is used over the next few hours. Other factors such as small but important changes in the nature of the cone materials are less likely to be immediately obvious in terms of numbers or even on an FR sweep, but are important for the long-term stability of the components.
Be that as it may, there are sound engineering reasons why certain units need to be brought into their design operating window in a certain way. This is a function of the driver type, the materials and adhesives used in their suspensions, the cone material
In most cases, it's actually quite easy to measure the effects of driver break-in in bald T/S terms; you'll usually see F0 drop along with a shift in Q and Vas, the degree depending on the specific driver type. Very common, applies to the majority of MC drivers, and a lot of that is done within a few seconds or minutes, with the rest gradually settling depending on how the unit is used over the next few hours. Other factors such as small but important changes in the nature of the cone materials are less likely to be immediately obvious in terms of numbers or even on an FR sweep, but are important for the long-term stability of the components.
Cheers Scottmoose for the tech heads up. Since severe physical injuries 12 years ago. I was into martial arts & practiced 4-6 hours a day as well as high intensity mountain bike training of 40 km a day packing 5 to 10 Kilo in a backpak for years. After the injury I learned to use a far more leathal weapon than my hands or feet ever were.
My mind.
My mind.
I have no vested interest in either the pro- or antagonistic camps in this long-lasting argument. I can tell you with certainty that my golden-eared wife, completely unprompted and unaware of the concept of break-in, commented on the improvement of a pair of MA drivers between first sounds and a day later with ~10 hours on them.
cool, did not know anything about MA drivers, having read the other posts I am impressed and I can comprehend why they would need
1500 hours 63 days.
I was referring to mass produced low cost speakers. Consider my earlier post as useless.
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