By tomorrow night it [Vesta] will have moved appreciably.
I trust you will show us the movement - in a similar way to this:
Let's get up close and personal to Vesta:
NASA’s Dawn mission obtained the above image of the giant asteroid Vesta (average diameter 329 miles) on July 24, 2011.
Being almost spherical, Vesta is is nearly classified as a dwarf planet, a designation that is held by the more massive asteroid Ceres.
Here's practically everything one would want to know about Vesta: https://www.space.com/12097-vesta-asteroid-facts-solar-system.html
This object Vesta is as easier than Uranus because it moves so fast. Discovered after Uranus around 1788, it is currently retrograde in appearance, but orbits every 3.6 years and comes to opposition about every 18 months.
Recall on the evening of the 16th:
This is 2AM on the 18th, 27 hours later. I make that about 15 arcminutes movement, about half a full Moon's width. Much darker skies. The overall window is about 10 x 6 degrees.
This is skylive's more detailed map for the second observation:
https://theskylive.com/where-is-vesta
Because the nearby star is magnitude 7, this means I have a good chance of snapping Neptune (mag 7.5) when it is better placed later in the year. That is about the last easy thing with my current 75mm camera setup. Ceres is magnitude 8, so doable too.
Usual 4 seconds, ISO 800, f2.8. Nikon D3200, 75mm eff. My tripod has a vertical calibration, so here I just set it to 30 degrees elevation from the sky map and I used Arcturus, Spica and Vega to locate. I checked for the T CrB Nova again, now at 60 degrees elevation,but nothing as usual.
About 40 Star Clusters, and some wide doubles, and the Andromeda Galaxy are doable. All the fainter galaxies are extremely difficult, being about 20X further away. I would need to borrow a 300mm telephoto for the Moon and smaller Jupiter moons I think.
Recall on the evening of the 16th:
This is 2AM on the 18th, 27 hours later. I make that about 15 arcminutes movement, about half a full Moon's width. Much darker skies. The overall window is about 10 x 6 degrees.
This is skylive's more detailed map for the second observation:
https://theskylive.com/where-is-vesta
Because the nearby star is magnitude 7, this means I have a good chance of snapping Neptune (mag 7.5) when it is better placed later in the year. That is about the last easy thing with my current 75mm camera setup. Ceres is magnitude 8, so doable too.
Usual 4 seconds, ISO 800, f2.8. Nikon D3200, 75mm eff. My tripod has a vertical calibration, so here I just set it to 30 degrees elevation from the sky map and I used Arcturus, Spica and Vega to locate. I checked for the T CrB Nova again, now at 60 degrees elevation,but nothing as usual.
About 40 Star Clusters, and some wide doubles, and the Andromeda Galaxy are doable. All the fainter galaxies are extremely difficult, being about 20X further away. I would need to borrow a 300mm telephoto for the Moon and smaller Jupiter moons I think.
I just checked this, Ceres looks good at 7.5 in October along with Neptune at 7.5 and Saturn at opposition. Bit low in the sky around 25-30 degrees in the South, but no really worse than tonight's observations of Vesta.
Should get them all in one frame and Saturn will make an easy marker:
That and some of the Nebulas and clusters low in Scorpio and Sagittarius in July are my next projects.
I see from my Astronomy Now magazine, which is pretty good if you are a practical observer, I can do a 2 year home course MSc Astrophysics with Liverpool University.
Probably cost 10,000 pounds and I have the 2.2 Physics degree required, given outrageous college fees these days, and a mere A-Level costs 250 pounds, but a unique and impressive sort of qualification I think.
Just wonder if it might really be a bit of a dumb sort of thing, since there is little we don't know about in this thread! 🤣
Should get them all in one frame and Saturn will make an easy marker:
That and some of the Nebulas and clusters low in Scorpio and Sagittarius in July are my next projects.
I see from my Astronomy Now magazine, which is pretty good if you are a practical observer, I can do a 2 year home course MSc Astrophysics with Liverpool University.
Probably cost 10,000 pounds and I have the 2.2 Physics degree required, given outrageous college fees these days, and a mere A-Level costs 250 pounds, but a unique and impressive sort of qualification I think.
Just wonder if it might really be a bit of a dumb sort of thing, since there is little we don't know about in this thread! 🤣
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Good work, Steve, in relation to the asteroid tracking!
However, I suggest you invest your £10k in state of the art astrophotography equipment rather than in gaining a Masters degree.
However, I suggest you invest your £10k in state of the art astrophotography equipment rather than in gaining a Masters degree.
I think that each lens I fit suits a particular form of Astrophotography. TNT has the advantage of clear skies in Sweden for his milky way shots with widefield 14mm.
I have never seen 75mm particularly recommended, and actually I haven't much used the full f1.4 aperture which is not going to be particularly sharp. Important to use the self-timer for vibration reduction too.
But a motorised and phone app/computerised tracking mount would be useful for camera with all the multiple shot stuff to reduce noise and saturation. These cost about 700 pounds AFAIK and will work with telescopes too. About 1 arc second accuracy, which is impressive.
I have just dug up a 2s picture of the Orion Nebula at 1600 LY:
The usual 3 stars in the Belt, and below the leftmost Alnitak is Zeta Orion making a right angle with the Belt. Between lies the Horsehead Nebula, but a difficult object without filters and computer enhancement.
The Orion Nebula comes out much brighter on a photo than with your eyes, but a pleasing shot I think.
This high grade shot of Andromeda M31 is really startling:
Star forming Nebulae and even a huge Globular Cluster in orbit. These Globulars are about 11Bn years old, so you really don't have to look into the far distance to see old stuff.
Mostly what we are seeing now is third generation stars which have accumulated heavy elements from previous Supernovae and Neutron Star collisions, which made the gold in your jewellery 5Bn years ago.
95% of the stars that will ever exist in our Universe have already been born.
The BBC has a fairly wretched Universe 3 part radio show about Cosmology by comedian Brian Cox's mate, Robin Ince:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00207vm
Too much about emotion and artisits, astrologers and that stoner Carlo Rovelli IMO. But Sean Carroll had interesting things to say about how people visualise the Big Bang entirely wrong.
NO. This is looking from the outside, which isn't how it works. If you were actually there in the hot Photon stage, a sheet of white paper is nearer what you would see all around you.
I think I am right that the Universe was near its present size after 3 minutes. Which is some inflation. It then cleared after 300,000 years with the creation of Hydrogen and Helium gas.
The accelerated expansion of the Universe kicked off 5Bn years ago for reasons unknown,
Another interesting thought about Cosmolgy is that in 100Bn years, we will only see our own combined Galaxy. The rest of the Universe will have receded away unless Dark Energy makes a U-turn.
I have never seen 75mm particularly recommended, and actually I haven't much used the full f1.4 aperture which is not going to be particularly sharp. Important to use the self-timer for vibration reduction too.
But a motorised and phone app/computerised tracking mount would be useful for camera with all the multiple shot stuff to reduce noise and saturation. These cost about 700 pounds AFAIK and will work with telescopes too. About 1 arc second accuracy, which is impressive.
I have just dug up a 2s picture of the Orion Nebula at 1600 LY:
The usual 3 stars in the Belt, and below the leftmost Alnitak is Zeta Orion making a right angle with the Belt. Between lies the Horsehead Nebula, but a difficult object without filters and computer enhancement.
The Orion Nebula comes out much brighter on a photo than with your eyes, but a pleasing shot I think.
This high grade shot of Andromeda M31 is really startling:
Star forming Nebulae and even a huge Globular Cluster in orbit. These Globulars are about 11Bn years old, so you really don't have to look into the far distance to see old stuff.
Mostly what we are seeing now is third generation stars which have accumulated heavy elements from previous Supernovae and Neutron Star collisions, which made the gold in your jewellery 5Bn years ago.
95% of the stars that will ever exist in our Universe have already been born.
The BBC has a fairly wretched Universe 3 part radio show about Cosmology by comedian Brian Cox's mate, Robin Ince:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00207vm
Too much about emotion and artisits, astrologers and that stoner Carlo Rovelli IMO. But Sean Carroll had interesting things to say about how people visualise the Big Bang entirely wrong.
NO. This is looking from the outside, which isn't how it works. If you were actually there in the hot Photon stage, a sheet of white paper is nearer what you would see all around you.
I think I am right that the Universe was near its present size after 3 minutes. Which is some inflation. It then cleared after 300,000 years with the creation of Hydrogen and Helium gas.
The accelerated expansion of the Universe kicked off 5Bn years ago for reasons unknown,
Another interesting thought about Cosmolgy is that in 100Bn years, we will only see our own combined Galaxy. The rest of the Universe will have receded away unless Dark Energy makes a U-turn.
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You've covered an awful lot of ground there, Steve!
If I may return to your asteroid tracking, astronomers have been using the same method in the search for the elusive Planet 9.
Sky surveys from two infrared space telescopes launched 23 years apart have revealed a possible candidate for the slow moving Planet 9.
The details are in this 13 minute video:
If I may return to your asteroid tracking, astronomers have been using the same method in the search for the elusive Planet 9.
Sky surveys from two infrared space telescopes launched 23 years apart have revealed a possible candidate for the slow moving Planet 9.
The details are in this 13 minute video:
That old Planet 9 chestnut again... definitely beyond my capabilities to discover. I wish people would stop saying they are Super-Excited about things. The correct word might be THRILLED... 🙄
Naturally I have done the maths. If it is at 300 AU and like Neptune at 30 AU, it will be be Magnitude 17.7, being 7.7 + 5 + 5, and orbit in 11,000 years using Kepler's second law. In fact Voyager is only 167 AU away at the moment.
There are about 60,000 AU in a light year for scale. An AU being the size of the Earth's orbit as you should know..
Of course there are a lot of assumptions there about Albedo and size and distance. If it is rocky, it will be smaller and most probably darker. Dwarf planet Pluto at 40 AU is magnitude 14,5.
Neptune is 70K temperature and Pluto 40K for infra-red observations, so it can't be very warm at all. But you would think computerised "flicker" image comparison techniques might pick it up.
Skies last night were very poor with high cloud, but I picked up Messier 3 in Canes Venatici towards the Plough, but mostly directly between Arcturus and Alpha CV, which is a million star Globular companion to our Galaxy at 25,000 ly and one of the brightest around magnitude 6:
Dear old T Corona Borealis Nova being coy as usual. I expect you to know this part of the sky. This is the standard required.
Naturally I have done the maths. If it is at 300 AU and like Neptune at 30 AU, it will be be Magnitude 17.7, being 7.7 + 5 + 5, and orbit in 11,000 years using Kepler's second law. In fact Voyager is only 167 AU away at the moment.
There are about 60,000 AU in a light year for scale. An AU being the size of the Earth's orbit as you should know..
Of course there are a lot of assumptions there about Albedo and size and distance. If it is rocky, it will be smaller and most probably darker. Dwarf planet Pluto at 40 AU is magnitude 14,5.
Neptune is 70K temperature and Pluto 40K for infra-red observations, so it can't be very warm at all. But you would think computerised "flicker" image comparison techniques might pick it up.
Skies last night were very poor with high cloud, but I picked up Messier 3 in Canes Venatici towards the Plough, but mostly directly between Arcturus and Alpha CV, which is a million star Globular companion to our Galaxy at 25,000 ly and one of the brightest around magnitude 6:
Dear old T Corona Borealis Nova being coy as usual. I expect you to know this part of the sky. This is the standard required.
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Aha! I am on the track of Asteroid 3 Juno at Magnitude 10 in Serpens.... it is near Vesta and M5 at the moment and must also be near opposition.
It ought to be just visible in the red ring, but I'm not really sure.
https://theskylive.com/juno-info
This blow-up I got from https://in-the-sky.org/skymap.php
Skies were murky again, so I should get a clearer picture soon. All a bit inconclusive so far. 🤔
It ought to be just visible in the red ring, but I'm not really sure.
https://theskylive.com/juno-info
This blow-up I got from https://in-the-sky.org/skymap.php
Skies were murky again, so I should get a clearer picture soon. All a bit inconclusive so far. 🤔
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I'm gearing up for a good MW pic - bit I think it has to be in the winter....
Nice shots there!
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Nice shots there!
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I thought the shots were poor... and, on reflection, I don't think this 3 Juno thing is doable at magnitude 10. Looking back at my 4 Vesta shots, magnitude 8.5 is about it.
I need a very clear sky and maybe pushing the ISO to 1600 or 3200, but it's going to be difficult. A nearby couple of bright stars will help too.
Apparently some oppositions are better than others, and sometimes hit magnitude 7.5, but I think that is year 2031.
What is useful in guessing what I am looking at with the 75mm lens is Messier objects like fuzzy M5 top right with Mu Serpentis bottom left:
M5 in all its glory looks like this:
About 200 LY across, 25,000 LY away, 100-500,000 stars including 2 millisecond pulsars (neutron stars) and amazingly, about 13 Bn years old.
You can do the math, but these stars are all within a light year of each other, and frequently merge to keep the whole thing going. Metal rich as a consequence.
@TNT, I think you need to find a second-hand tripod and maybe a shutter release remote control if you tire of the self-timer. And really, six months before you get off your backside?
Summer stars are coming, even if the twilight is now late. And it's not so flippin' COLD. 😀
I need a very clear sky and maybe pushing the ISO to 1600 or 3200, but it's going to be difficult. A nearby couple of bright stars will help too.
Apparently some oppositions are better than others, and sometimes hit magnitude 7.5, but I think that is year 2031.
What is useful in guessing what I am looking at with the 75mm lens is Messier objects like fuzzy M5 top right with Mu Serpentis bottom left:
M5 in all its glory looks like this:
About 200 LY across, 25,000 LY away, 100-500,000 stars including 2 millisecond pulsars (neutron stars) and amazingly, about 13 Bn years old.
You can do the math, but these stars are all within a light year of each other, and frequently merge to keep the whole thing going. Metal rich as a consequence.
@TNT, I think you need to find a second-hand tripod and maybe a shutter release remote control if you tire of the self-timer. And really, six months before you get off your backside?
Summer stars are coming, even if the twilight is now late. And it's not so flippin' COLD. 😀
Beaver Run. One for the Mathematicians:
https://mathenchant.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/math-and-the-museum/
Truly interesting, IMO. 🤣
https://mathenchant.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/math-and-the-museum/
Truly interesting, IMO. 🤣
One for the Mathematicians
Your link above mentions a National Museum of Mathematics, informally called MoMath.
Hopefully, there's a National Museum for Non-Mathematicians, informally called NoMath!
Topic solved! (?)
It's simple, just introduce four new bosons that merge to give the graviton, thus producing a quantum equivalent to general relativity!
Bingo, we have a theory of 'Teleparallel Gravity' which regards spacetime as always flat so that gravity is not caused by curvature, but by 'spacetime torsion'.
Would you believe that not everyone supports this idea? https://philosophyofphysics.lse.ac.uk/articles/10.31389/pop.152
P.S. The above article was published May 20, 2025.
@TNT I've been looking into the historical background by sifting through multiple references, including: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleparallelism
Teleparallel Gravity (TG) was originally Einstein's other theory of gravity formulated during his attempts to unify electromagnetism and gravity. In this theory, spacetime is regarded as being curvature free. Apparently, his theory failed because there was no Schwarzschild solution in his simplified field equation.
However, TG has significantly increased in popularity in recent decades and there is now a plethora of modified TG theories that have been proposed in the literature. Nowadays, TG is studied purely as a theory of gravity without trying to unify it with electromagnetism. The theory attributes gravitation to a torsion tensor formed of the parallel vector fields that make up Weitzenböck spacetime. Apparently, Schwarzschild geometry emerges within this framework.
If anyone can explain Weitzenböck spacetime to me in simple terms, I'd be delighted to hear from you!
Teleparallel Gravity (TG) was originally Einstein's other theory of gravity formulated during his attempts to unify electromagnetism and gravity. In this theory, spacetime is regarded as being curvature free. Apparently, his theory failed because there was no Schwarzschild solution in his simplified field equation.
However, TG has significantly increased in popularity in recent decades and there is now a plethora of modified TG theories that have been proposed in the literature. Nowadays, TG is studied purely as a theory of gravity without trying to unify it with electromagnetism. The theory attributes gravitation to a torsion tensor formed of the parallel vector fields that make up Weitzenböck spacetime. Apparently, Schwarzschild geometry emerges within this framework.
If anyone can explain Weitzenböck spacetime to me in simple terms, I'd be delighted to hear from you!

I'm glad as I can only hope to increase your insight on the topic by posting my trivial findings coming off of the wanderlust that is me, seeking to up my own knowledge.
I'm sure our resident mathemagician is a Weitzenböck wiz 😉
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I'm sure our resident mathemagician is a Weitzenböck wiz 😉
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I have no intention of spending time on Weitzenböck Spacetime, since I am pretty weak on Tensors altogether.
The Beaver Run was a lot more interesting than you puny amateurs realised. And the funny emergent thing is the Beavers never occupy the same space, which is a property of Fermions.
Tucked away is a property of left and right handedness that is interesting too, and we know our Spacetime has a handedness bias in Neutrinos and the Weak Force.
Let me explain why this is an interesting toy model. It is a tiling of 2D space with ONE tile in two orientations:
Sort of thing Loop Quantum Gravity people mull over. Complexity arising from simplicity. And can encode information with a bit of cleverness.
This could be magnetic domains in a crystal too where electron paths grow longer with temperature, the ground state being circles.
It might be the two ways particles can collide too.
Symmetry is everything in Physics, and space-filling tilings can take all sorts of forms, even Platonic Solids in 4D.
I would like a box of these tiles to see what I can do, Don Knuth has a Dragon Curve on his wall:
It's not only rectangles you can fill space with. The Dragon Curve can do it too:
So you see, there is a lot more going on here than you thought.
The Beaver Run was a lot more interesting than you puny amateurs realised. And the funny emergent thing is the Beavers never occupy the same space, which is a property of Fermions.
Tucked away is a property of left and right handedness that is interesting too, and we know our Spacetime has a handedness bias in Neutrinos and the Weak Force.
Let me explain why this is an interesting toy model. It is a tiling of 2D space with ONE tile in two orientations:
Sort of thing Loop Quantum Gravity people mull over. Complexity arising from simplicity. And can encode information with a bit of cleverness.
This could be magnetic domains in a crystal too where electron paths grow longer with temperature, the ground state being circles.
It might be the two ways particles can collide too.
Symmetry is everything in Physics, and space-filling tilings can take all sorts of forms, even Platonic Solids in 4D.
I would like a box of these tiles to see what I can do, Don Knuth has a Dragon Curve on his wall:
It's not only rectangles you can fill space with. The Dragon Curve can do it too:
So you see, there is a lot more going on here than you thought.
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