from the article you linked:
Bohm's proposed order applies both to matter and consciousness. He suggested that it could explain the relationship between them. He saw mind and matter as projections into our explicate order from the underlying implicate order. Bohm claimed that when we look at matter, we see nothing that helps us to understand consciousness.[12]
Bohm discussed the experience of listening to music. He believed that the feeling of movement and change that make up our experience of music derive from holding the immediate past and the present in the brain together. The musical notes from the past are transformations rather than memories. The notes that were implicated in the immediate past become explicate in the present. Bohm viewed this as consciousness emerging from the implicate order.[citation needed]
Bohm
David Bohm viewed quantum theory and relativity as contradictory, which implied a more fundamental level in the universe.[10] He claimed that both quantum theory and relativity pointed to this deeper theory, which he formulated as a quantum field theory. This more fundamental level was proposed to represent an undivided wholeness and an implicate order, from which arises the explicate order of the universe as we experience it.[11]Bohm's proposed order applies both to matter and consciousness. He suggested that it could explain the relationship between them. He saw mind and matter as projections into our explicate order from the underlying implicate order. Bohm claimed that when we look at matter, we see nothing that helps us to understand consciousness.[12]
Bohm discussed the experience of listening to music. He believed that the feeling of movement and change that make up our experience of music derive from holding the immediate past and the present in the brain together. The musical notes from the past are transformations rather than memories. The notes that were implicated in the immediate past become explicate in the present. Bohm viewed this as consciousness emerging from the implicate order.[citation needed]
Like all philosophers that analyze conciousness with heaps of words, David Bohm was an idiot.
My memory records whole songs, without the words. I wake up in the morning with a song running in my head, fairly complete. What melody comes up is random and has little to do with what I heard yesterday. When I hear pleasant ratios like fifths or fourths in music, my brain lights up with pleasure. Same result when such relationships are suspended by time, as in a melody. There are probably 100000 such melodies recorded in my memory. The words I remember as sounds, and when I try to sing along I make up rhymes that have nothing to do with the actual meaning of the words.
One accompanying effect, when I hear scratchy fading buzzy AM radio, my memory plays the real track in my head. This drove the wife crazy in New Mexico desert, where there was no other medium available than AM. I was listening to a Toronto oldies station. She made me turn the radio off and drive through the dark while she told me stories of the lives of famous movie stars. That was an 850 mile day, driving from Grand Canyon N.P. to El Paso, Tx.
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The idea seems to have sprung from this idea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric
😉 A lay view might assume that a black hole is oblate due to rotation so gravity differs between the poles and the equator. Not that this makes much sense as an explanation,
let’s look at David Bohm a little more closely, the following excerpt courtesy of his Wiki page.
David Joseph Bohm FRS[1] (/boʊm/; 20 December 1917 – 27 October 1992) was an American–Brazilian–British scientist who has been described as one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century[2]and who contributed unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, neuropsychologyand the philosophy of mind. Among his many contributions to physics is his causal and deterministic interpretation of quantum theory known as De Broglie–Bohm theory.
Bohm advanced the view that quantum physics meant that the old Cartesian model of reality—that there are two kinds of substance, the mental and the physical, that somehow interact—was too limited. To complement it, he developed a mathematical and physical theory of "implicate" and "explicate" order.[3] He also believed that the brain, at the cellular level, works according to the mathematics of some quantum effects, and postulated that thought is distributed and non-localised just as quantum entities are.[4][failed verification] Bohm's main concern was with understanding the nature of reality in general and of consciousness in particular as a coherent whole, which according to Bohm is never static or complete.[5]
Born in the United States, Bohm obtained his Ph.D. under J. Robert Oppenheimer at the University of California, Berkeley. Due to his Communist affiliations, he was the subject of a federal government investigation in 1949, prompting him to leave the U.S. He pursued his career in several countries, becoming first a Brazilian and then a British citizen. He abandoned Marxism in the wake of the Hungarian Uprising in 1956.[7][8]
David Joseph Bohm FRS[1] (/boʊm/; 20 December 1917 – 27 October 1992) was an American–Brazilian–British scientist who has been described as one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century[2]and who contributed unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, neuropsychologyand the philosophy of mind. Among his many contributions to physics is his causal and deterministic interpretation of quantum theory known as De Broglie–Bohm theory.
Bohm advanced the view that quantum physics meant that the old Cartesian model of reality—that there are two kinds of substance, the mental and the physical, that somehow interact—was too limited. To complement it, he developed a mathematical and physical theory of "implicate" and "explicate" order.[3] He also believed that the brain, at the cellular level, works according to the mathematics of some quantum effects, and postulated that thought is distributed and non-localised just as quantum entities are.[4][failed verification] Bohm's main concern was with understanding the nature of reality in general and of consciousness in particular as a coherent whole, which according to Bohm is never static or complete.[5]
Born in the United States, Bohm obtained his Ph.D. under J. Robert Oppenheimer at the University of California, Berkeley. Due to his Communist affiliations, he was the subject of a federal government investigation in 1949, prompting him to leave the U.S. He pursued his career in several countries, becoming first a Brazilian and then a British citizen. He abandoned Marxism in the wake of the Hungarian Uprising in 1956.[7][8]
@indianajo wrote, “Like all philosophers that analyze conciousness with heaps of words, David Bohm was an idiot.
My memory records whole songs, without the words. I wake up in the morning with a song running in my head, fairly complete. What melody comes up is random and has little to do with what I heard yesterday. When I hear pleasant ratios like fifths or fourths in music, my brain lights up with pleasure. Same result when such relationships are suspended by time, as in a melody. There are probably 100000 such melodies recorded in my memory.”
If your memory serves up random melodies then can we say the mind is quantum I.e., random or probabilistic, in nature? When listening to a recording for the first time we hear it as music because our brains 🧠 extrapolate and integrate the musical notes ON THE FLY to create a musical whole. I suspect this is what Bohm was referring to — Being able to consciously and subconsciously integrate the various parts into a whole, call it short term information processing. But where are the memories of sound and pictures and videos stored, praytell, inside cells or neurons in the brain? How does your mind know where to go automatically to retrieve the data. I can visualize scenes from movies frame by frame, rather easily, anyone can, they pop up out of nowhere along with the dialog, colors, etc.
My memory records whole songs, without the words. I wake up in the morning with a song running in my head, fairly complete. What melody comes up is random and has little to do with what I heard yesterday. When I hear pleasant ratios like fifths or fourths in music, my brain lights up with pleasure. Same result when such relationships are suspended by time, as in a melody. There are probably 100000 such melodies recorded in my memory.”
If your memory serves up random melodies then can we say the mind is quantum I.e., random or probabilistic, in nature? When listening to a recording for the first time we hear it as music because our brains 🧠 extrapolate and integrate the musical notes ON THE FLY to create a musical whole. I suspect this is what Bohm was referring to — Being able to consciously and subconsciously integrate the various parts into a whole, call it short term information processing. But where are the memories of sound and pictures and videos stored, praytell, inside cells or neurons in the brain? How does your mind know where to go automatically to retrieve the data. I can visualize scenes from movies frame by frame, rather easily, anyone can, they pop up out of nowhere along with the dialog, colors, etc.
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Anybody that has watched PBS Nova carefully knows that when a part of the brain dies in a stroke, certain abilities or memories or lost. Scientists are beginning to map out which areas of the brain are associated with particular skills or types of memory. There is a bump that grows on the brain in a certain location in keyboard players, and another bump on the other side grown by violin players. Einstein had the latter.
There has been demonstrated from MRI images that stimulating certain areas of the skin or other sensors activate a particular area of the brain. Thus there is hard evidence that areas of neurons in the brain are involved in sensation and memory. Worm experiments demonstrate that learning causes neurons of a location to grow new connections. Thus the theory that connections of neurons consist of memory or at least learned behaviors, is beginning to be proved. So much for all the heaps of words about mind/matter duality piled up by philosophers from Aristotle to Bohm. Neuron connections are much larger physical devices than are described by quantum theory.
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Are you one of those who hears music in his head 24/7/365, with NO ability to shut it off? Even while sleeping? That used to drive the wife crazy too, as I’d be humming, singing, tapping my foot all while sound asleep. Not just the usual twitching, but clearly rhythmic. When waking from that critical early AM REM it will still be playing, uninterrupted.
NP: Rolling Stones “Gimme Shelter”.
In a 'parallel universe', @Bonsai alerted me to Welsh theoretical physicist Brian Josephson.
Josephson made his mark in physics for the prediction of a macroscopic quantum effect, the Josephson effect, for which he would be awarded the Nobel prize in physics.
Here is an electrical symbol you may be familiar with - that of a Josephson junction:
In the early 1970s, he took up transcendental meditation and set up a project to explore the idea of intelligence in nature, the relationship between quantum mechanics and consciousness, and the synthesis of science and Eastern mysticism, broadly known as 'quantum mysticism'.
That would be the 'quantum mysticism' that those with an expert knowledge of quantum mechanics refer to as pseudoscience, quantum quackery or quantum woo!
Sounds to me like another example of a renowned physicist losing the plot and dabbling in matters outwith his speciality. What say you, Bonsai?
Roger Penrose was the first to postulate that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons.
His postulate has expanded into a 'theory' known as Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orche...oo "warm, wet and noisy" to avoid decoherence.
Orch OR has been criticised from its inception by mathematicians, philosophers and scientists.
I can't criticise it, simply because my puny brain cells can't process the information contained within the Wiki article!
I like the Rupert Sheldrake concept of how memory works, that memories exist outside the head, kinda like Jung’s Universal Subconscious or whatever. The problems with the idea that memories must reside in the brain, in cells or neurons or some such thing include but are not limited to the brain would have to have the capacity/function to store sounds sequentially with each instant of sound assigned day/date/time coordinates, much like a computer does. You know, so that sound or sequence of sounds, music, would be played back in the exact right time sequence. Ditto for videos, but with even more complicated storage and retrieval systems. All stored information would be assigning time of day, day, month, year coordinates.
Another problem is how to retrieve the information instantly in proper sequence. I promise I will try to find a link to the experiment where monkeys were taught a complex skill, and were tested afterwards to make sure they learned that skill. Then the portion of the monkeys’ brain that was supposedly responsible for learning was removed surgically, after recovering from the operation it turned out the monkeys couid still perform the learned skill.
Are you really remembering an event, book, musical composition or movie, or are you remembering the memory of it?
Another problem is how to retrieve the information instantly in proper sequence. I promise I will try to find a link to the experiment where monkeys were taught a complex skill, and were tested afterwards to make sure they learned that skill. Then the portion of the monkeys’ brain that was supposedly responsible for learning was removed surgically, after recovering from the operation it turned out the monkeys couid still perform the learned skill.
Are you really remembering an event, book, musical composition or movie, or are you remembering the memory of it?
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Scientists have seen connections between neurons grow in the neurons that light up when a worm performs a learned skill. These worms have a phosphorescence gene inserted in the DNA from jellyfish or such.
I accept the postulate that my brain works the same way as worms. No quantum effects necessary; simple cellular morphology seems to be sufficient explanation.
I do have fairly continual music in my head. It stops when I am talking or listening to speech, or playing music on an instrument. . I listen to the radio or other media continually to keep the track in my head from looping endlessly short of the whole song with variations. Earworms and commercial jingles are a curse. I enjoyed guiding the track in my head to completion with some of my collection of 2500 LP's & 220 CD's, but they were stolen 2020.
There seems no limit to my memory. In addition to geofkait, I can play back images of places I have been, with some sequencing. I enjoy playing back images from travel. The effect can by heightened by new geography, but in college I learned that if I wrote important facts on a summary sheet, I could sort of see it during tests.
New memory skill for 2020's, associating names & faces. I have been terrible, but I am getting better. Name tags at introduction help a lot to provide a visual reference.
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I made my comment with regard to Penrose's Conformal Cosmic Cosmology (CCC) hypothesis, which he offers as an alternative to the inflationary Big Bang hypothesis.
CCC requires that imprints of universes before the Big Bang should show up in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) - imprints that Penrose calls Hawking Points.
Observations from the likes of the Planck space telescope have revealed no such imprints - no Hawking points.
When the data is analysed, it is overwhelmingly clear that inflation is consistent with the data, and CCC is quite clearly not.
According to Ethan Siegel, hundreds of scientists have pointed this out to Penrose - repeatedly and consistently over a period of years.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...o-evidence-of-a-universe-before-the-big-bang/
"Like many before him, he appears to have fallen so in love with his own ideas that he no longer looks to reality to responsibly test them."
This just in! 🤗
NIH article concerning memory and other brain functions and the effect of certain surgeries on them. This is not meant to sway the debate one way or the other, plus I have not read the article entirely myself.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6885125/#:~:text=Dominant temporal lobe resection produces,et al., 2011).
NIH article concerning memory and other brain functions and the effect of certain surgeries on them. This is not meant to sway the debate one way or the other, plus I have not read the article entirely myself.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6885125/#:~:text=Dominant temporal lobe resection produces,et al., 2011).
Temporal lobe epilepsy surgery?
Do I see a bottle in front of me or a frontal labotomy? 😊
If BB is anything like what "we" think, nothing will survive that RESET. No thing. So personally I don't think thats a valid argument... that something should remain from the last universe. If everything (you name it) in existence - is contained in a 1 ml container - nothing could survive to the new incarnation.
//
From my archives:
For decades now Penrose has challenged the concept of Inflation, according to which our universe expanded at an enormous rate immediately after the Big Bang. He has proposed a counter-concept of Conformal Cyclic Cosmology which introduces the idea of preceding aeons.
He expects analysis of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) to reveal powerful signals that had never been noticed previously, namely numerous 'bright' circular patches. These are what Penrose calls 'Hawking Spots' and he argues they are results of Hawking radiation from supermassive black holes in a previous aeon.
In response to Penrose's claims of the existence of Hawking points, Stephen Hawking said he could see his own intials in the CMB! 😀
No definitive evidence for the existence of Hawking Points yet exists.