To start I'm building a 3-way speaker using these drivers:
Tweeter: Sb Acoustics satori tw29txn-b
Midwoofer: Sb Acoustics satori mw13tx
Woofer: Sb Scoustics satori Wo24p
I've been going down the rabbit hole of how certain crossover parts could alter a speakers sound signature. My interest Is if anyone has observed a noticable change in sound by using different types/brands for a given crossover filter.
More specifically if a 2nd order low pass was used would using a high end capacitor but "worth" two, three, or more times the cost
Tweeter: Sb Acoustics satori tw29txn-b
Midwoofer: Sb Acoustics satori mw13tx
Woofer: Sb Scoustics satori Wo24p
I've been going down the rabbit hole of how certain crossover parts could alter a speakers sound signature. My interest Is if anyone has observed a noticable change in sound by using different types/brands for a given crossover filter.
More specifically if a 2nd order low pass was used would using a high end capacitor but "worth" two, three, or more times the cost
^ what he said.
There can be minor changes if you swap a capacitor that can an ESR of 0.5ohm for one that has an ESR of 0.01ohm but this is not neccesarily 'better' either way just 'different'. Can achieve the same sound by using a 0.01ohm ESR cap with a 0.5ohm resistor on series.
There can be minor changes if you swap a capacitor that can an ESR of 0.5ohm for one that has an ESR of 0.01ohm but this is not neccesarily 'better' either way just 'different'. Can achieve the same sound by using a 0.01ohm ESR cap with a 0.5ohm resistor on series.
A second order passive XO on the woofer is a poor choice. In order to damper high frequency cone resonances, I recommend single (inductor only) or 3rd order filter. Expensive capacitors may have lower ESR but a lower ESR is actually not better and some XO add resistors to avoid hi-Q resonances in the XO.
This "High End" worshipping has entrapped many people's minds.
In 'some' cases it's justified, but more times than not it's just marketing hype to gain or justify more money from the buyer, with the hope that they'll spread the word and bring more suckers to the table.
Brand Recognition used to be an honestly reliable thing for judging quality.
Cute phrases like....
"Zenith.... the Quality goes in, before the Name goes on"
Or...
"RCA.... the most Trusted name in Electronics"
And...
"You can be Sure!.... if it's Westinghouse"
But sadly,all that jive is long gone from modern offerings, due to the outsourcing and cutbacks, and these days the crap companies churn out pathetic excuses with the usual saying of "X company's been in business for decades", again, relying on Brand Loyalty of the past.
And people buy into it of course, not really knowing what slop they're actually getting.
I might sound negative, but it's the truth.
I've seen the decades of "changes" by working at the shop, and really seeing the results.
And in many cases I don't like what I see.
That's one main reason why "vintage stuff" has become such an "in demand" commodity as opposed to new products.
In 'some' cases it's justified, but more times than not it's just marketing hype to gain or justify more money from the buyer, with the hope that they'll spread the word and bring more suckers to the table.
Brand Recognition used to be an honestly reliable thing for judging quality.
Cute phrases like....
"Zenith.... the Quality goes in, before the Name goes on"
Or...
"RCA.... the most Trusted name in Electronics"
And...
"You can be Sure!.... if it's Westinghouse"
But sadly,all that jive is long gone from modern offerings, due to the outsourcing and cutbacks, and these days the crap companies churn out pathetic excuses with the usual saying of "X company's been in business for decades", again, relying on Brand Loyalty of the past.
And people buy into it of course, not really knowing what slop they're actually getting.
I might sound negative, but it's the truth.
I've seen the decades of "changes" by working at the shop, and really seeing the results.
And in many cases I don't like what I see.
That's one main reason why "vintage stuff" has become such an "in demand" commodity as opposed to new products.
That depends on woofer and crossover point (midrange power handling).
The Satori MW/TX13 is a good choice for crossing low. I'm crossing a MW13P (not the MR13, which requires a higher crossover point) at 200Hz to a Volt B2549 using 2nd order filter, no issues at all.
The WO24 is not as good low down, but can be crossed at 300-500Hz with minimal issues and help get a smoother midrange than my combination. Given the listening axis will be far above the woofer, a simple resonance trap can smooth out the 3k peak quite easily. I remember using a 0.68uF cap in a sim, actual results may be a little different.
It's a case of diminishing returns. Most speakers will exhibit several % of distortion.
True, crap caps can be bettered, particularly when considering the scope of the value of the cap.
Most hi-End speaker manufacturers will have considered all the parameters of the caps used. Therefore if you change any one of those parameters you can considerably change how the speaker will perform.
True, crap caps can be bettered, particularly when considering the scope of the value of the cap.
Most hi-End speaker manufacturers will have considered all the parameters of the caps used. Therefore if you change any one of those parameters you can considerably change how the speaker will perform.
Serial capacitors as highpass (of midrange and tweeter) are traditionally "the audiophile dilemma". I support earlier responses - cap type and name are practically irrelevant.
Focus on getting acoustic crossover slopes symmetric, take care of resonances of the motor and cone, and set time delays right. Check off-axis response and distortion behaviour. Are you using some simulation software? Do you have a good calibrated microphone and a turntable to take acoustic measurements of the drivers in your speaker box, and use these for simulation? Your choice of drivers is excellent, take good care of them!
VituixCAD Loudspeaker simulator and please study Help files carefully!
Some good reference designs and useful info
Zaph|Audio
DIY-Loudspeakers
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages
Heissmann Acoustics | Kits | Speaker developments
Focus on getting acoustic crossover slopes symmetric, take care of resonances of the motor and cone, and set time delays right. Check off-axis response and distortion behaviour. Are you using some simulation software? Do you have a good calibrated microphone and a turntable to take acoustic measurements of the drivers in your speaker box, and use these for simulation? Your choice of drivers is excellent, take good care of them!
VituixCAD Loudspeaker simulator and please study Help files carefully!
Some good reference designs and useful info
Zaph|Audio
DIY-Loudspeakers
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages
Heissmann Acoustics | Kits | Speaker developments
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Hi jpboxer,
I still have a set of unique and vintage 'Gold-Ear SLD Capacitos' with manganese oxigen cores. They are by far the best, I have heard in the last 30 years! Could sell them to you for a very fair price. They will improve the sound quality dramatically. The 3d Imaging is just breath taking.
Sell them for 40 to 90 bugs each (depends on the size you need).
I still have a set of unique and vintage 'Gold-Ear SLD Capacitos' with manganese oxigen cores. They are by far the best, I have heard in the last 30 years! Could sell them to you for a very fair price. They will improve the sound quality dramatically. The 3d Imaging is just breath taking.
Sell them for 40 to 90 bugs each (depends on the size you need).
Any decent film cap is good enough for best sound. And nonpolar elco's are often also good enough but dry out over (long time) and have a much higher ESR. So no, fancy high end caps don't do much more than decent cheap industrial ones (but maybe the looks).
Just use the cheapest decent polyester (PET or MKT) or polypropylene (PP or MKP) filmcaps with the right voltage rating (in your case 150v is enough, higher is not bad) that you can find, preferable with a 5% or less tollerance on value and you got all you may need. What that is depends on where you live and what links you got to shops.
Just use the cheapest decent polyester (PET or MKT) or polypropylene (PP or MKP) filmcaps with the right voltage rating (in your case 150v is enough, higher is not bad) that you can find, preferable with a 5% or less tollerance on value and you got all you may need. What that is depends on where you live and what links you got to shops.
I would not put more money into a woofer shunt cap than a pair of the right valued Solen poly caps. They work very well in that job.
Later,
Wolf
Later,
Wolf
I would second that ^ approach, although I have spent more, and the laws of diminishing returns do apply.
Put the money into the chokes instead. That is, if you're designing your own speaker. And know what you're doing. If you are following a complete design form someone else or building a kit, it's likely the choke Rdc are part of the build and you likely not get a better result with a lower serial resistance choke for the woofer because it changes the Qt.
..or keep it in mind when designing the box, or if it's already made toss in a little more stuffing, or just equalise.
Thanks for the info everyone, I'm currently assembling my cabinet and getting ready to measure my drivers. I've got a bit of time before I'll be finalizing my crossover design.
As said earlier - getting the crossover design right is far, far more important than the type of cap you use. A great crossover design with cheap electrolytic caps will sound better than a bad design with $$$$ boutique caps.
Save your money until you get the crossover dialed in. Then buy some decent film caps from Madisound or Parts Express. Some of the most mind blowing great systems I've heard used good old Solen caps.
Save your money until you get the crossover dialed in. Then buy some decent film caps from Madisound or Parts Express. Some of the most mind blowing great systems I've heard used good old Solen caps.
In doing my custom restoration of my "vintage" RCA Victor stereo tube console, I chose poly caps for the midranges and tweeters.
I preferred the cleaner "sparkle" over using plain electrolytics.
Of course in any build, it's what you want to achieve in the end.
The big 12" woofers only use a 1mH air core inductor.
I preferred the cleaner "sparkle" over using plain electrolytics.
Of course in any build, it's what you want to achieve in the end.
The big 12" woofers only use a 1mH air core inductor.