If I would think that they are really needed, I would be using them. I just think that lack of Zobel is much lower risk than not using input coupling caps. One can always add those caps at RCA input. Same with Zobel. But for those who don't want to use neither of them, I will not compromise integrity of the board. After all you don't need all the components to be on that board. In my official amp, I'm not using a board at all.
I was using coupling caps initially, with my first amps, but eventually I decided that the sound quality without the caps outweights the risk of not having them. It is a calculated risk, the same goes for Zobel.
What really bothers me, is when somebody who doesn't really has any experience with those amps, like Fred here, comes in and turns everything upside down, only because he calls himself an EE.
What really bothers me, is when somebody who doesn't really has any experience with those amps, like Fred here, comes in and turns everything upside down, only because he calls himself an EE.
Peter Daniel said:
I understand your frustration, Peter, but let's try to pretend it's just a matter of style and not something personal. I think Fred has something to contribute. Unfortunately, you seem to think that any contribution of his is an attack on you - and he seems to feel the same way (i.e. if you disagree, then you're slamming his credibility). I don't know how this got started - or when - but don't you think we'd all be better off if there was a truce?
Let's face it - the "truth" is somewhere in the middle...
netgeek said:
I value DIYers much more than EEs. None of those breed will ever disappear, and they will probably always argue. EEs were conditioned by corporate environment and profit management, the DIYers are more independant breed and they never cease to be creative. They may sometimes not know completely what they are doing, but also, in some cases, their actions are guided by intuiton and subconscoius reservoirs, even while they are not always aware of that. Both of those types are needed for future progress and development. Some of the best gear I've seen was not created by EE type, but if it wasn't for EEs, the DIYers wouldn't be able to do it either.
Some of the best, or rather, most useful advice on this forum, I didn't obtain from EEs. It was always given (without doing much ado about it) by brave DIYers who were able to go one step further, into the area that is still not defined by EEs.
Mutual understanding and respect is what we really need here, but I don't think it belongs to things to do today, for some of us.😉
netgeek said:
You must have missed the Fred's-Grey affair.
Don't do anything big out of Fred's and my exchanges. We know each other very well, and we are usually not very personal. We also argue once in a blue moon. I know Fred's style and I learned not to take it too seriously. I frankly still like the guy, and sometimes even take his advise.
What I don't like is when he starts to exaggerate and to see everything in dark colors. But I guess those are remnants of his days as EE. Must have been very stressful working for all those big companies😉
EEs were conditioned by corporate invironment and profit management
That is your opinion.
My opinion is that it is load of codswallop.
Hate to tell you, but the EEs that I know have delved into things that you haven't even imagined yet. And with an attitude like yours, I doubt that any of them will ever share it with you.
For someone who comes off as a frustrated engineer/designer wanna-be, talk of mutual understanding and respect sounds funny.
But that is just my opinion.............
Jocko
That is your opinion.
My opinion is that it is load of codswallop.
Hate to tell you, but the EEs that I know have delved into things that you haven't even imagined yet. And with an attitude like yours, I doubt that any of them will ever share it with you.
For someone who comes off as a frustrated engineer/designer wanna-be, talk of mutual understanding and respect sounds funny.
But that is just my opinion.............
Jocko
Re: EEs were conditioned by corporate invironment and profit management
That attitude appears quite often recently in both of yours and Fred's posts: " I would tell, but I won't"
Frankly, I don't give **** what both of you could share but you won't. I'm building with chip amps and basically I can be quite independant of yours and Fred's advice.
Maybe I'm into different things, but I also never really used any of yours or Fred's advice. I once built a regulator based on LT1085 using lots of LEDs suggested by Fred, but that's about all and now I can do much better than that. And not thanks to you, but thanks to other DIYers, who are not protective about their (non existant) EE wisdom.
Jocko Homo said:
That attitude appears quite often recently in both of yours and Fred's posts: " I would tell, but I won't"
Frankly, I don't give **** what both of you could share but you won't. I'm building with chip amps and basically I can be quite independant of yours and Fred's advice.
Maybe I'm into different things, but I also never really used any of yours or Fred's advice. I once built a regulator based on LT1085 using lots of LEDs suggested by Fred, but that's about all and now I can do much better than that. And not thanks to you, but thanks to other DIYers, who are not protective about their (non existant) EE wisdom.
Re: EEs were conditioned by corporate invironment and profit management
I don't understand where this impression of a designer wanna-be comes from. I noticed that Fred always makes allusions with regards to that, but I wrote today whole page trying to explain that I'm not a designer wanna-be. I don't even pretent to be one. What I do is what I do, and I only do it because I like it. But it seems like those who regard themself as designers and engineers, just can't accept that somebody without any particular training can actually do better than them.
Jocko Homo said:
I don't understand where this impression of a designer wanna-be comes from. I noticed that Fred always makes allusions with regards to that, but I wrote today whole page trying to explain that I'm not a designer wanna-be. I don't even pretent to be one. What I do is what I do, and I only do it because I like it. But it seems like those who regard themself as designers and engineers, just can't accept that somebody without any particular training can actually do better than them.
Is there a thread entitled "Group order of non-inverted LM4780 pc boards for people without giant egos and semantic hair triggers? Anyone interested?"
I don't know about all of you other non egotistcal self proclaimed wizards but if it wasn't for Brian's involvement in this I'd cancel my order and be done with it!! These guys need to get a LIFE!!!
Actually, I will probably be installing caps at the inputs of mine.. I'll give it a try with and without, and see what kind of difference there is. Heck, I may even make it switchable on the back. But, I don't trust all source components (and I'm probably going to try quite a few).
Some of us are not quite as hardcore as you are, Peter 😀
Some of us are not quite as hardcore as you are, Peter 😀
Jeez you Americans and Canadians argue alot. 🙂
Simple solution: split this thread into three:
1. Peter and BrainGT minimalist LM4870 PCB groupbuy
2. The alternative LM4870 PCB (with all the extras) designed by the experts and offered as a groupbuy
3. National Semiconductors LM4870 PCB Clone groupbuy
For options 2 and 3 we need a few volunteers.
Simple solution: split this thread into three:
1. Peter and BrainGT minimalist LM4870 PCB groupbuy
2. The alternative LM4870 PCB (with all the extras) designed by the experts and offered as a groupbuy
3. National Semiconductors LM4870 PCB Clone groupbuy
For options 2 and 3 we need a few volunteers.
grege said:
How about Option 1.5 - something in between?....
🙂 But, I think Brian and Peter have done a great job so far! ...and I'm no expert...
🙂
CONSENSUS
IMHO
It is very gratifying when something I do is found to agree with the work of others.
I have confidence the work of my hand that is based upon this thread will be better than anything I could do on my own.
I know I can put ANYTHING I want into a circuit if I want to find out the effect, or if it seems necessary. The Leach Amp I built has a Zoebel...however my ME2's show a "mild" load to an amp.
I think my speakers are good enough (Whew, finally!) for me to become concerned about the effect of some components, if I want to.
...a different tact...
Knowledge is Power?
from Matrix Revolution:
"There's only one thing that powerful men need....More Power"
The Oracle
"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it"
John Stuart Mill
Gentlemen, please continue bringing the best you have to offer.
"And we thank you for your support"
Bartles & James
IMHO
It is very gratifying when something I do is found to agree with the work of others.
I have confidence the work of my hand that is based upon this thread will be better than anything I could do on my own.
I know I can put ANYTHING I want into a circuit if I want to find out the effect, or if it seems necessary. The Leach Amp I built has a Zoebel...however my ME2's show a "mild" load to an amp.
I think my speakers are good enough (Whew, finally!) for me to become concerned about the effect of some components, if I want to.
...a different tact...
Knowledge is Power?
from Matrix Revolution:
"There's only one thing that powerful men need....More Power"
The Oracle
"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it"
John Stuart Mill
Gentlemen, please continue bringing the best you have to offer.
"And we thank you for your support"
Bartles & James
man.. I go away for a day, and look what happened to the thread... 
As for the Zobel, I have been looking at the layout, to find the best way to add it, as it seems like a good thing to have in case of instabilities. The national app note recommends a 2.7ohm 1/4w resistor and a 0.1uF capacitor, so this shouldn't be hard to add to the layout.
--
Brian
As for the Zobel, I have been looking at the layout, to find the best way to add it, as it seems like a good thing to have in case of instabilities. The national app note recommends a 2.7ohm 1/4w resistor and a 0.1uF capacitor, so this shouldn't be hard to add to the layout.
--
Brian
I am going to use 8 of these Dynabel 12 in a infinite baffle in my HT, how many boards would I need to drive them and what is the best way to connect it all together? and how much power would I need to drive them?
Jamh said:
Since nobody bothered with this question, I looked into it. From 47 Labs' site on the gaincard:
"World's smallest number of parts - 9 parts per channel ( excluding attenuators )"
That would be:
1. The chip
2. The feedback res
3,4,5 the resistors
6,7 The 2 caps
That leaves 2 other parts. The Zobel? or a bridge and a power cap?
BrianGT said:man.. I go away for a day, and look what happened to the thread...
As for the Zobel, I have been looking at the layout, to find the best way to add it, as it seems like a good thing to have in case of instabilities. The national app note recommends a 2.7ohm 1/4w resistor and a 0.1uF capacitor, so this shouldn't be hard to add to the layout.
--
Brian
YEAH!! BRIAN and with him sanity has returned to the thread!!!! Brian you can't go away from than 12 hours from now on.
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