Hi Panicos, how nice a Cypriot, I am married to 1(female).Panicos K said:
Never noticed a difference on speaker connectors or they should be really bad.
poobah said:
Children need encouragement. If a kid gets an answer right, tell him it was a lucky guess. That way he develops a good, lucky feeling. -Jack Handey
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Joined 2002
Johan Potgieter said:
Yep, that's why I said "Most speaker cables are pretty much the same within the power, length and bandwidth we're talking about."
I.E., short speaker cables.
I was involved in what might be called a "double blind" cable test once. A difference was heard. But that was only once.
Hi Bert,just joking about the connectors eventhough they belong to the same marketing wheel as speaker cables etc.Imagine you have a pair of $20000 speakers and a pair of $20 speaker cables.I can think of a 1000000 reasons why this doesnt ''sound'' good and they have to be replaced.And if we think that we enjoyd our music with the $20 cables thank God there are thousands of enlightened manufacturers to convince us why we should pay for their thousands of $ cables.Where from your wife comes?Ask her what ''Pan metron ariston'' means and if all hi-fi manufacturers could walk on this we would all be happy.Mind you Im not cynical about anything.I was in hi-fi business for 25 years and I sold thousands meters of cables at all prices.No prizes if anyone guesses right who used to buy the most expensive ones.And yes I know that speaker cables too make a difference.I f you're coming to Cyprus sometime let me know.We can mix some music with souvlaki
Johan Potgieter said:
Most cables on the market is based on whatever theory and information that can be found. Based on the measurement and budget limitations, it is very difficult to do proper development work, get the best equipment, get the best people to do the detail research and still make a profit. Most manufacturers are in the cable business to make money period. If they can come up with a different structure, different color, and have a good story, they will do it. Many don't even explain. So consumers really need to look at the track record of manufacturers, and get a money back guarantee if you don't like it.
I'm sure there are lots of engineers out there that would love to make the best cable possible. At time you will see some efforts in this aspect, but lack of budget to get the equipment necessary. This is not a subject that Government would invest in because it is not considered a big step in mankind...
As an engineer my focus has never been on ables, but I always do the best I can to make or pick a cable based one reasonable theory to the best of my knowledge, listen to it, and buy it. If there is no way I can technically understand what's going on, then it's never even listened to.
Johan Potgieter said:
Of course the differences are of a magnitude large enuff to play a role in audio. Just ask any tech who has had to fix a PS Audio power amp because it was used with Cobra Cable or a NAIM that was used with cable with insufficient inductance. And at lower than destructive levels a speaker cable can certainly affect an amplifier.
Or the difference that a high resistance cable (ie 30-40g magnet wire) can make by reducing an amps damping factor & making it behave as more of a current amp.
These examples also point out that a speaker cable can never be considered without considering what is hooked at either end.
Consider that last example. If the speakers you are driving have a flat response with a voltage amp, you are likely getting poorer performance with the skinny wire. If you have a full-range with FR falling off at the extreminities, the combination of a current amp and the rising impedance of the driver at either end likely makes the skinny wire a good thing.
Now some of the prices for some cables sure seem a lot to me... my whole system eaily fitting within the sales tax on some of these.
dave
I've heard significant audible differences between braided and not braided cable using the same conductor on Bose 301, so I think differences are certainly significant enough. But maybe not everyone think such differences matter to their listening.
audio-kraut said:
Midrange galore!
"No highs, no lows, must be Bose"
Truth be told, I used 301s for years. Saw a pair being used for car show PA just last week. Forgot to check what speaker cable he was using. Darn....
panomaniac said:
For some reason it seems that Bose is relatively popular in Asia, (surprisingly?) I can see that quite a few Bose speakers get pretty good reviews in some Japanese audio magazines. I have never listened to Bose speakers (at least not in the context of an audiophile setup), so I have no opinion on their sound quality. I`m not into that reflection stuff, I`m into dipoles to reduce reflections. However, we are moving away from the subject.
About speaker cables, I can easily hear the difference between some lousy thin wire that costs really nothing and a more decent cable of say a few $ per meter. I have never had the courage to invest hundreds of $ in so-called super high-end cables. I invest in active speakers so that one can get rid-of all passive filter components in the speakers (on which one also easily can spend a fortune), probably that makes a bigger difference in sound than hundread $ plus speaker cables.
Cheers
Gertjan
Speaker cable's LCR makes no difference? Sorry, but that is completely incorrect. In fact, those electrical parameters are the only ones that cause audible differences between cables. Cables do not intrinsically have a sound of their own -how can they? They are a passive component, not a source or transdusor. However, their electrical characteristics can & do cause alterations in the behaviour of the equipment they connect together, and here the LCR are the only important factors.
Of course, all of this is totally dependant upon the system in which the cable resides. Now, if you have two very similar cables, with only fractional variations in these factors, then that's fair enough & I agree wholeheartedly that you're exceedingly unlikely to get any audible differences. But major changes, like swapping out 10AWG for 30AWG magnet wire when running a low Q driver off a high DF amplifier will make a dramatic, measureable change, the increased cable resistance lifting driver Qe, and lowering the DF of the amp. Ultimately, as Nelson Pass points out, if you add enough resistance to the cable, either via using a more resitive material (no such thing as conductance IMO, only varying degrees of resistance) or adding a resistor, they you will force the amplifier to behave as a current, not a voltage source.
Roger Russell has a good example on this website at the moment actually. Monster appear, on some of their advertsing stands at present, to be doing one of the oldest tricks in the book. One speaker is wired with their cable, about 14AWG, the other with 'normal' speaker wire of the type typically provided with micro systems etc of about 24AWG. Guess which has the superior bass etc. in the context of a farily cheap set of normal speakers & hifi separates. Naturally, a cheap lamp-cord or mains cable of about the same guage will provide exactly the same benefits, which they somehow forget to mention.
Capacitance is also a big issue in speaker cables -too high and the amplifier will beging to oscilate; particularly if it has no impedence matching network of its own, and relies upon a cerrtain amount of cable inductance for stability. Dave P10 has already mentioned Naim amps; Nene Valley Audio were & remain another -they advise heavy-guage ring mains cable if you don't wish to buy their own wire, and for a very good reason that has nothing to do with the vodoo, pseduo science peddled by most of the cable companies, and everything to do wit the preservation of the amplifier's output stage. I know a bloke who bought a 2nd hand NVA integrated -A60 or some such I believe, without a manual off Ebay, and tried wiring it using a CAT5 recipe he found on the net. I do with he'd asked around first. The result I shall leave to your imagination; suffice to say it wasn't pretty.
None of this has anything to do with the lies perpetuated by many of the thieving cable companies, skin effect, dilectric, windings, fancy material etc. It's just basic physics.
Of course, all of this is totally dependant upon the system in which the cable resides. Now, if you have two very similar cables, with only fractional variations in these factors, then that's fair enough & I agree wholeheartedly that you're exceedingly unlikely to get any audible differences. But major changes, like swapping out 10AWG for 30AWG magnet wire when running a low Q driver off a high DF amplifier will make a dramatic, measureable change, the increased cable resistance lifting driver Qe, and lowering the DF of the amp. Ultimately, as Nelson Pass points out, if you add enough resistance to the cable, either via using a more resitive material (no such thing as conductance IMO, only varying degrees of resistance) or adding a resistor, they you will force the amplifier to behave as a current, not a voltage source.
Roger Russell has a good example on this website at the moment actually. Monster appear, on some of their advertsing stands at present, to be doing one of the oldest tricks in the book. One speaker is wired with their cable, about 14AWG, the other with 'normal' speaker wire of the type typically provided with micro systems etc of about 24AWG. Guess which has the superior bass etc. in the context of a farily cheap set of normal speakers & hifi separates. Naturally, a cheap lamp-cord or mains cable of about the same guage will provide exactly the same benefits, which they somehow forget to mention.
Capacitance is also a big issue in speaker cables -too high and the amplifier will beging to oscilate; particularly if it has no impedence matching network of its own, and relies upon a cerrtain amount of cable inductance for stability. Dave P10 has already mentioned Naim amps; Nene Valley Audio were & remain another -they advise heavy-guage ring mains cable if you don't wish to buy their own wire, and for a very good reason that has nothing to do with the vodoo, pseduo science peddled by most of the cable companies, and everything to do wit the preservation of the amplifier's output stage. I know a bloke who bought a 2nd hand NVA integrated -A60 or some such I believe, without a manual off Ebay, and tried wiring it using a CAT5 recipe he found on the net. I do with he'd asked around first. The result I shall leave to your imagination; suffice to say it wasn't pretty.
None of this has anything to do with the lies perpetuated by many of the thieving cable companies, skin effect, dilectric, windings, fancy material etc. It's just basic physics.
Oh no! The Yorkshire Moose is on the Loose! 
Well, yeah, of course it makes a difference. The question is - how much in the audio band? When I think of speaker cables I rarely think of welding cable vs. 30ga. magnet wire. But maybe I should........
It seems that pretty much everyone agrees that the resistance can make a difference. It's the L and C we wonder about. In practical wires, over normal distances, with normal speakers.
Crikey, I've used everything from exotic multimetal woven cables to semiconductive coated with special termination, to zip wire, to power cords. Can't swear that any of them were better or worse than any other.
Funny, in pro audio were the power is measured in 100s of watts, sometimes 1000s, the cable is often long and not very "good". But that's what gets used all over the world. In a side note, I used to use a lot of low voltage lighting in theater. (24V) I can tell you that undersized wire results in dim lights. No doubt about it - none.
Scottmoose said:
Well, yeah, of course it makes a difference. The question is - how much in the audio band? When I think of speaker cables I rarely think of welding cable vs. 30ga. magnet wire. But maybe I should........
It seems that pretty much everyone agrees that the resistance can make a difference. It's the L and C we wonder about. In practical wires, over normal distances, with normal speakers.
Crikey, I've used everything from exotic multimetal woven cables to semiconductive coated with special termination, to zip wire, to power cords. Can't swear that any of them were better or worse than any other.
Funny, in pro audio were the power is measured in 100s of watts, sometimes 1000s, the cable is often long and not very "good". But that's what gets used all over the world. In a side note, I used to use a lot of low voltage lighting in theater. (24V) I can tell you that undersized wire results in dim lights. No doubt about it - none.
Depends upon what you call a 'normal' system.
Practical wires will have little C or L variation between them over a reasonable run -say less than 10 metres, so for all intents and purposes, they will sound the same, asuming identical resistance. It's only when a company deliberatly makes a decision to accept an increase in one in order to gain a reduction in the other (say, sacrifice capacitance to reduce inductance) that sonic differences will start to occur due to the effect of the cable's electrical characteristics upon the amplifier and driver. How great a change will occur depends upon the specific nature of the speaker and amplifier.
Practical wires will have little C or L variation between them over a reasonable run -say less than 10 metres, so for all intents and purposes, they will sound the same, asuming identical resistance. It's only when a company deliberatly makes a decision to accept an increase in one in order to gain a reduction in the other (say, sacrifice capacitance to reduce inductance) that sonic differences will start to occur due to the effect of the cable's electrical characteristics upon the amplifier and driver. How great a change will occur depends upon the specific nature of the speaker and amplifier.
The trap with cables is that while they may have audible differences they may not have any measurable ones.So if more than one listeners claim they hear a difference then there must be one.If the technically minded refuses to accept theese differences because he cannot measure them this will not stop the others to continue to hear them and enjoy their music.
Really? So if more than one person claims that they have psychic powers, that's proof of the existence of psychic powers?
SY, not really but if you tell me that you hear differences between cables and that you have physical rowers I will believe you for the cables and ask you to show me one of your physical powers.The problem would be if one of your phisical powers is to hear differences between cables.Believe those who pay their money because they hear differences and not those who pay their money because you and i hear the differences.
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