Panicos K said:
More than one person has claimed to see the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot and a thousand other 'mythical' creatures but the general population is quick to dismiss it be cause there is no scientific evidence. I think if we put a large dollar amount on Bigfoot people would belive he exists and want to buy one. If you put a lower amount on it people would naturally assume that the more expensive creature was better.
Rescent documendary showed by the way their discovery of a monster sceleton that fits almost exactly the shape Loch Ness monster had according to the ''witnesses''.I dont know if this can be scientifically proven but this does not prove either that those who hear differences between cables are lying or they have to prove it to you or me.
There's enough real, measurable reasons to pay some attention to cables, why bother to make stuff up?
My wife, when asked why she pays attention to nonsense like horoscopes, responds, "because it's fun to believe in things that aren't true."
My wife, when asked why she pays attention to nonsense like horoscopes, responds, "because it's fun to believe in things that aren't true."
SY,that's what i'm trying to say but what is better to say: that there are differences to those who dont believe or that there are not differences to those who believe they are?
You claimed that there's stuff in cables that can be heard that we're unable to measure. Your justification was that if two people report the same thing, it must be true.
Both of those statements are insupportable.
Both of those statements are insupportable.
SY,you are right.Maybe if i had put it in a different way by saying that if more than one people who's hearing integrity we both accept claim they hear differences between cables then there must be some differences?
If a man is in the woods talking about something and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong?
The Loch Ness monster is actually quite a good example.
Because of it's reputation, both believers and non-believers are primed before they go to visit to see something that will validate their beliefs. For believers, the slightest wave, boat wake or dead branch is interpreted as Nessie, despite the use of scientific technology such as sonar and computerised cameras and ROVs finding nothing, whereas for the sceptics, Nessie would have to crawl out of the water in full view of half a dozen scientists and TV camera teams. However, unrelated scientific work on the loch, such as the study of fauna in the lake have discovered that there isn't the fish stocks to support a large carnivore.
Where do we go from here? That depends on your viewpoint, though for me, the most well known example of NLP, Fox Moulder's UFO poster saying "I want to believe" says it all. 😉
Because of it's reputation, both believers and non-believers are primed before they go to visit to see something that will validate their beliefs. For believers, the slightest wave, boat wake or dead branch is interpreted as Nessie, despite the use of scientific technology such as sonar and computerised cameras and ROVs finding nothing, whereas for the sceptics, Nessie would have to crawl out of the water in full view of half a dozen scientists and TV camera teams. However, unrelated scientific work on the loch, such as the study of fauna in the lake have discovered that there isn't the fish stocks to support a large carnivore.
Where do we go from here? That depends on your viewpoint, though for me, the most well known example of NLP, Fox Moulder's UFO poster saying "I want to believe" says it all. 😉
BWRX, i dont know but what i know is that if a woman is in the woods talking about something and her husband is not there to hear her then he's in big problem.............
It's often a problem regardless of where the husband is whenever he neglects to listen 😉
On a more topical note, all this cable discussion in the class d forum and not much of any mention of how cable inductance and capacitance effect the output of class d amps. Seeing as class d amps have a built in LC filter, it would make sense that these amps are less sensitive to cable parasitics than other amps are.
On a more topical note, all this cable discussion in the class d forum and not much of any mention of how cable inductance and capacitance effect the output of class d amps. Seeing as class d amps have a built in LC filter, it would make sense that these amps are less sensitive to cable parasitics than other amps are.
'Cables may have audible differences but not measureable ones.'
If there's a difference, you can measure it. Hifi is based upon the artistic application of science, not fantasy. You choose the cable who's electrical characteristics will work best in the context of the components it connects.
Most SS amps have a zobel across their outputs. It also should help prevent problems if someone uses a very high capacitance cable. Quite why they should wish to is beyond me, given that even 12AWG zip cord has no inductance related problems until about a century out of the audio band, but it makes some people feel better. Bad idea if you have a Naim or NVA amplifier of course. 😉
If there's a difference, you can measure it. Hifi is based upon the artistic application of science, not fantasy. You choose the cable who's electrical characteristics will work best in the context of the components it connects.
Most SS amps have a zobel across their outputs. It also should help prevent problems if someone uses a very high capacitance cable. Quite why they should wish to is beyond me, given that even 12AWG zip cord has no inductance related problems until about a century out of the audio band, but it makes some people feel better. Bad idea if you have a Naim or NVA amplifier of course. 😉
I guess that is where the "hifi" crowd and the "high enders" part ways. The latter seem to base every evaluation on an in their opinion impeccable measuring system: the ear.
If one premise is ridiculous, it is this one, knowing how this sensory system can be influenced and corrupted.
Looking at the prices of quite some hi end equipment - you sure are in fantasyland.
There is some value to the claim that some cables in conjunction with some amps with certain input/output parameters can have problems - i.e. can be driven to oscillation by high capacitance cable like goertz. I consider this having nothing to do with "cable sound" but with a faulty construction on both sides.
Scottmoose said:
But are we? Same argument applies to cables as any other kit. Is what we are measuring an accurate indication of what we hear? I'm sure that 10,20, 50 years from now we will have measurement techniques that allow us to look at things we can only imagine (or not) right now.
dave
Scottmoose,I would totally agree with you and everyone if cable performance could be completely determined by resistance,capacitance and inductance.But cables have other things that play a role to their performance,like insulations,metals,non metals,way of stranding,solid core,strand thickness,even directionality of the conductors something that causes different opinions even among cable manufacturers.An audio signal is a multi octave signal and i assume that if there are really no sound differences between cables this means that all behave in exactly the same way in relation to this multi octave signal.A .1mm strand has different charactreistics than a .2mm one so they effect sound differenly.Suppose that we make a 14awg cable using .1mm strands and another 14awg cable using .2mm strands.In your opinion is there any possibility that theese two cables will not show any audible difference since the strands that form their whole do have differences?you think we can measure anything?
planet 10 that would be my next comment and i'm glad you said it.It is similar to the old argument that there were no other PLANETS untill we discovered more powerfull telescopes.
audio-kraut as far as i'm concerned i have never said or agreed that a ''better'' cable must cost that much and i totally agree with you also for the ''high-end'' equipment.
A very long time ago I have promised to bow out - but somebody must mind the store.
Someone said that scientists should leave those who claim to hear differences to their choice because they pay for it. I could not agree more - but that is not the problem. The problem starts when those believers trust their ears to the extent that they want to twist science into untenable moulds just because their subjective senses tell them that it is OK.
That is what is unacceptable.
What mystifies me is that after all these posts we are still talking qualitative. No measurements, even when these are dead-basic. ........ May I assume (I was going to say for argument's sake, but that should rather be for sanctity's sake) that we all respect something as basic as Ohm's Law. There are many web-sites citing very complete measurements on a number of cables. I will stick to my own, done on some 8 speaker cables, from the lowly rip-cord to products costing some $400 for 2 meter lengths.
The worst was, not unexpectedly, the rip-cord. For a 10m length (i.e. a total of 20m of conductor) the inter-lead capacitance was about 1 nF. The inductance for one lead was 15 uH. A capacity of 1nF across 8 ohms will have a -3dB point (pole) at almost 20 MHz! And this was the worst capacity; most "better" cables had no more than 56% of this. I believe that takes us to the region of 35 MHz. Any takers that this will attenuate treble? Even if we take the practical situation that at 20 KHz the impedance of most 8 ohm speakers is around 30 ohm, the 1nF would still constitute 8K-ohm impedance there. And in all this we neclect the fact that the amplifier driving impedance is hopefully considerably less than 8 ohm, shunting this.
Concerning inductance, 15uH would give a -3dB attenuation at about 85 KHz. But taken the practical situation that most speakers would be about 30 ohms at 20 KHz, that figure would be much higher. But more important, most speaker cables consist of two wires running in close proximity. That will reduce nett inductance by a factor of at least 4.
Resistance: 10m of gauge #14 cable (20m in total) will measure 0,104 ohm. For an 8 ohm system that will give about 0,12dB attenuation. (1mm diameter rip-cord will also give about that.)
Damping factor: I believe this is not well understood. The loudspeaker voice coil back e.m.f is damped by all of the circuit series resistance. This includes the voice coil d.c. resistance, for an 8 ohm system hardly lower that 5,6 ohm. If we take the amplifier impedance to be zero, the deterioration to real damping factor would be about 2%. (This is not a tutorial, but it will be seen that the classic definition of damping factor has nothing to do with the actual damping force on the loudspeaker.)
I thus come back to the core of this. Let those who claim to hear things, go on doing so. (Records are full of acousto-medical tests showing why this occurs and some has explained it here, but that is another scene.) Only those folks must look elsewhere than roping in any possible effect of L, C and R into the picture. As said (and shown), this is basic electricity.
(I must remark on the reported tendency of some amplifiers to oscillate with capacitive speaker leads - those reports are from reliable people and I cannot refute that. I can only say that to cure that by use of a suitable cable of unknown capacity to me points to an amplifier I would not like to posses, with all respect. Transistor amplifiers can have such a tendency, and there are simple measures to cure that - it should be built in. I have really designed enough of these to know, with all humility.)
Regards!
Someone said that scientists should leave those who claim to hear differences to their choice because they pay for it. I could not agree more - but that is not the problem. The problem starts when those believers trust their ears to the extent that they want to twist science into untenable moulds just because their subjective senses tell them that it is OK.
That is what is unacceptable.
What mystifies me is that after all these posts we are still talking qualitative. No measurements, even when these are dead-basic. ........ May I assume (I was going to say for argument's sake, but that should rather be for sanctity's sake) that we all respect something as basic as Ohm's Law. There are many web-sites citing very complete measurements on a number of cables. I will stick to my own, done on some 8 speaker cables, from the lowly rip-cord to products costing some $400 for 2 meter lengths.
The worst was, not unexpectedly, the rip-cord. For a 10m length (i.e. a total of 20m of conductor) the inter-lead capacitance was about 1 nF. The inductance for one lead was 15 uH. A capacity of 1nF across 8 ohms will have a -3dB point (pole) at almost 20 MHz! And this was the worst capacity; most "better" cables had no more than 56% of this. I believe that takes us to the region of 35 MHz. Any takers that this will attenuate treble? Even if we take the practical situation that at 20 KHz the impedance of most 8 ohm speakers is around 30 ohm, the 1nF would still constitute 8K-ohm impedance there. And in all this we neclect the fact that the amplifier driving impedance is hopefully considerably less than 8 ohm, shunting this.
Concerning inductance, 15uH would give a -3dB attenuation at about 85 KHz. But taken the practical situation that most speakers would be about 30 ohms at 20 KHz, that figure would be much higher. But more important, most speaker cables consist of two wires running in close proximity. That will reduce nett inductance by a factor of at least 4.
Resistance: 10m of gauge #14 cable (20m in total) will measure 0,104 ohm. For an 8 ohm system that will give about 0,12dB attenuation. (1mm diameter rip-cord will also give about that.)
Damping factor: I believe this is not well understood. The loudspeaker voice coil back e.m.f is damped by all of the circuit series resistance. This includes the voice coil d.c. resistance, for an 8 ohm system hardly lower that 5,6 ohm. If we take the amplifier impedance to be zero, the deterioration to real damping factor would be about 2%. (This is not a tutorial, but it will be seen that the classic definition of damping factor has nothing to do with the actual damping force on the loudspeaker.)
I thus come back to the core of this. Let those who claim to hear things, go on doing so. (Records are full of acousto-medical tests showing why this occurs and some has explained it here, but that is another scene.) Only those folks must look elsewhere than roping in any possible effect of L, C and R into the picture. As said (and shown), this is basic electricity.
(I must remark on the reported tendency of some amplifiers to oscillate with capacitive speaker leads - those reports are from reliable people and I cannot refute that. I can only say that to cure that by use of a suitable cable of unknown capacity to me points to an amplifier I would not like to posses, with all respect. Transistor amplifiers can have such a tendency, and there are simple measures to cure that - it should be built in. I have really designed enough of these to know, with all humility.)
Regards!
planet10 said:
Panicos K said:
Sorry to dominate guys, but these posts came while I was typing my above post.
Planet10,
Sure we will have better instruments then, but our ears will not be better. We can already measure anything relevant to hearing and cables, because of the ear's limitations. That will not change.
Panicos K,
Again there are many urban legends regarding these. The claims of some of the patents involving these! I had to investigate some of them and I wish I had room to tell you what I found for a good laugh or two. Again, in audio none of these is mostly remotely relevant. You mention all those octaves; true. But your very ordinary TV antenna cable handles more than 1000 times the bandwidth. In any half-decent cable I honestly assure you that just about none of the manufacturers' claims are relevant to audio.
Regards.
Jonathan,i dont want to argue or question youe investigation on cables.I have done the same and still do sometimes for 25 years but dont you think a TV signal is different?I really dont see the point.However i believe also that you believe all you said and if you tell me that you cannot tell the difference between say a pure silver uninsulated strand and a pvc insulated TPC copper strand i will believe you again.However i bet that if cable manufacturers could sell say silver cables cheap most of us would have a pair or two.As audio -kraut said our ears can be influenced and corrupted but they will always be the only instrument to judge music.Tube amps measure inferior to transistors still................
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