Speaker Cables
Well I'm probably going to stir up the bee's nest again but here's my opinion:
I regard the issue of whether expensive speaker cables make a significant difference compared with the cheapest (standard cables) to be similar to that of 'does homeopathy work'. There is certainly alot of money, publicity and following around it but any hard evidence? The answer is 'no' and 'they don't offer any audio benefit' and what few double blind tests have been done have supported this fact. For anyone who understands about electronics and what is essentially high-level signals (not to be compared with low level video/input signals), there is no grounding for any percievable difference.
It has however been well proved that human beings are very prone to be lead to believe in something, simply because others do, or because they see it in their interest to believe in it - it is the basis of Fascism, religion, spiritualism etc. If we factor the human element into the equasion (and this is an example where there is considerable human element) then we really do need to question the common philosphy used here of 'we can't actually prove homeopathy does not work, I have heard of instances where it has worked therefore I believe in it.
In fact what we have here is a far simpler concept as the real question can be distilled down to 'does a double blind listening test reveal any difference' and nobody has shown clearly that it does - Case rested.
Keladrin
http://www.aurousal.com
Well I'm probably going to stir up the bee's nest again but here's my opinion:
I regard the issue of whether expensive speaker cables make a significant difference compared with the cheapest (standard cables) to be similar to that of 'does homeopathy work'. There is certainly alot of money, publicity and following around it but any hard evidence? The answer is 'no' and 'they don't offer any audio benefit' and what few double blind tests have been done have supported this fact. For anyone who understands about electronics and what is essentially high-level signals (not to be compared with low level video/input signals), there is no grounding for any percievable difference.
It has however been well proved that human beings are very prone to be lead to believe in something, simply because others do, or because they see it in their interest to believe in it - it is the basis of Fascism, religion, spiritualism etc. If we factor the human element into the equasion (and this is an example where there is considerable human element) then we really do need to question the common philosphy used here of 'we can't actually prove homeopathy does not work, I have heard of instances where it has worked therefore I believe in it.
In fact what we have here is a far simpler concept as the real question can be distilled down to 'does a double blind listening test reveal any difference' and nobody has shown clearly that it does - Case rested.
Keladrin
http://www.aurousal.com
Re: Speaker Cables
I guess I need to bone up on "high level" signals so that I understand why there is no grounding..
Cheers, John
keladrin said:
I guess I need to bone up on "high level" signals so that I understand why there is no grounding..
Cheers, John
Speaker cable do make a difference, but it does not mean the higher price the better.
Most cable designs will fail miserably if you do a design review according to good engineering practices.
Most cable designs will fail miserably if you do a design review according to good engineering practices.
... He slinks down the alley, lookin' for a fight.
Howling to the moonlight on a hot summer's night...
Howling to the moonlight on a hot summer's night...
soongsc said:
On what basis do you make that assertion??
btw, I love that avatar..those your speakers??
Cheers, John
jneutron said:
Based on the size and research budget most audio cable manufactures have.
Yes, those are my speakers. Thank you.
soongsc said:
Oh. I was thinking you were talking about either cable construction materials, robustness, or electrical parameters.
I do not think you can base the passing or failing of a speaker cable on the budget of the manufacturer only.
soongsc said:
You are welcome..If I had the space for such works of art, I would certainly wish to have them. Sounding nice in addition would be a perk, an added bonus.
Cheers, John
I wouldn't mind seeing if certain cables might be a little better audibly than others, especially the "high end" ones that seem to be based on sound principles. My problem is I'll never be in a position to, and even if I were, I just couldn't bring myself to connect a cable that cost more than the amp and speaker combined.
How can they possibly justify asking thousands of dollars for just a few feet of wire, if not to pray on the ignorance of consumers?
How can they possibly justify asking thousands of dollars for just a few feet of wire, if not to pray on the ignorance of consumers?
soongsc said:
Hi Soongsc,
I am a little puzzled here. You say that speaker cable do make a difference, and somewhat later that you base this on the budget of the manufacturer. How do the amount of money spent on an idea prove that that idea is sound?
Then your second statement seems to show that either cable differences do not exist according to science, or that any science showing this is bogus. You are an engineer. Would you care to explain your reasons? You will hopefully agree that an arguement based on "my father is better than your father" only, cannot carry any weight of proof. On what possible electronic principles can the different (audible) effect of cables in audio be based? And if such principles are as basic as 3 + 5 = 8, by what means will anybody be able to prove that this is not so? And please, let us not come with "I have heard it". It is well known by now that for every claim made that someone has heard something, there is an opposite claim from someone else that it is not so.
THis is not picking an argument. It is just that I have never seen any plausible reason for the fact that folks claiming to hear something, mostly think that they are correct and nobody else is.
Poobah,
Your comments are always interesting, but I have an idea you can do better than your above comments here!
Regards.
Sorry Johan,
I believe that humor is the ONLY purpose in a speaker cable thread.
The people that devote their educations and careers pushing electrons around, asking for only proof, are labeled as idiots. The guys that spew the Gospel have only that. It's religion all over again.
The only thing that anyone learns here is how to bash out someone's brain politely.
🙁
... I don't bother chasin' mice around...
😀
I believe that humor is the ONLY purpose in a speaker cable thread.
The people that devote their educations and careers pushing electrons around, asking for only proof, are labeled as idiots. The guys that spew the Gospel have only that. It's religion all over again.
The only thing that anyone learns here is how to bash out someone's brain politely.
🙁
... I don't bother chasin' mice around...
😀
Well, Poobah,
I still think you can do more, but stated clearly enough, and I respect your stance on that!
(You may have heard that certain mathematicians have discovered that 2 + 2 can equal 5 ..... for very large values of 2. So for very perfect cables ....?)
Regards.
I still think you can do more, but stated clearly enough, and I respect your stance on that!
(You may have heard that certain mathematicians have discovered that 2 + 2 can equal 5 ..... for very large values of 2. So for very perfect cables ....?)
Regards.
Glad to see your sense of humor Johan.
I have installed a breath alcohol analyzer, and special software on my computer. I cannot always reply to cable threads.
😀
I have installed a breath alcohol analyzer, and special software on my computer. I cannot always reply to cable threads.
😀
Why woudn't different speaker cables sound different? They are, after all - different.
Cables may have various electrical properties - R, L, C and who knows what else. So they should sound different.
Whether those differences are actually big enough to notice - well.... That's a topic for the cable threads.
Most speaker cables are pretty much the same within the power, length and bandwidth we're talking about. (Or so it seems to me.)
Cables may have various electrical properties - R, L, C and who knows what else. So they should sound different.
Whether those differences are actually big enough to notice - well.... That's a topic for the cable threads.
Most speaker cables are pretty much the same within the power, length and bandwidth we're talking about. (Or so it seems to me.)
I will finally put an end to this thread once and for all. Speaker cables DO make a difference. With speaker cables we are able to hear the program and without cables we are not.
There.....lock the damn thread now!
There.....lock the damn thread now!
Poobah,
Touche (with a thing on the e.)
Panomaniac,
A most honest and correct question.
But then measurements have shown that none of those parameters (L, C, R) in practical cables have nearly the magnitude to play any role IN AUDIO. This is the point: Manufacturers are forever claiming that their cable has "lower inductance", "lower capacitance", etc. When one then measures those parameters and find that the magnitude is such that they can only play a role close to or over the MHz region, what faith can one have in said manufacturer with such uninformed statements? (It is not as if this is advanced electronics.) Nobody ever said cables do not make a difference. We are speaking of the relatively narrow and low frequency band of audio here, compared to the greater field of things.
Also, I have seen too many cases where folks loudly proclaiming to definitely hearing differences, suddenly loose that ability in blind tests. I do respect folks' perceived experiences; I was not there, and I cannot go poking about their brains with a probe to determine what was actually heard. But this is too often based on people's assumption that their hearing is faultless, while there are lots of medico-acoustic evidence that it is not so. I will be the first one to persue new facts, but not based on such indeterminable evidence.
Regards.
Touche (with a thing on the e.)
Panomaniac,
A most honest and correct question.
But then measurements have shown that none of those parameters (L, C, R) in practical cables have nearly the magnitude to play any role IN AUDIO. This is the point: Manufacturers are forever claiming that their cable has "lower inductance", "lower capacitance", etc. When one then measures those parameters and find that the magnitude is such that they can only play a role close to or over the MHz region, what faith can one have in said manufacturer with such uninformed statements? (It is not as if this is advanced electronics.) Nobody ever said cables do not make a difference. We are speaking of the relatively narrow and low frequency band of audio here, compared to the greater field of things.
Also, I have seen too many cases where folks loudly proclaiming to definitely hearing differences, suddenly loose that ability in blind tests. I do respect folks' perceived experiences; I was not there, and I cannot go poking about their brains with a probe to determine what was actually heard. But this is too often based on people's assumption that their hearing is faultless, while there are lots of medico-acoustic evidence that it is not so. I will be the first one to persue new facts, but not based on such indeterminable evidence.
Regards.
burnedfingers said:
Now why did I not think of that .......
Also bowing out then. (Burnedfingers, I posted before receiving yours.)
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