As a physicist, tinkerer and lousy guitar player ( a hearing range not much beyond 8 kHz) and huge skeptic, I found the Jim Lill video that started this thread to be vindicating. Back in the early 1970's I had to make the momentous decision between a used $600 '66 Martin D28 and Gibson Hummingbird (Bleeker St Music in the Village). I was enamored with the luscious beauty of the Hummingbird vs the more stoic Martin. As an ex wannabe bass player, the bass from from Hummingbird blew me away. Back then I had access to a spectrum analyzer and was shocked to find that the Martin had a significantly more powerful bass output. (Who knows, was it the strings?) Thankfully my guitar teacher nixed the Gibson. My D28 is still the grand piano.
The real question is what does our hearing respond to? Clearly output frequency response is primary and as Jimm Lill demonstrated, for all amps that can be replicated from amp to amp. But what other parameters did he miss? For instance, I suggest any computer savvy audiophile generate a two-tone sine wave and adjust the phase between the two tones. (Or just look at the plot of the square of the product of the two waves as our ears do.) To my skeptical surprise, even my dull ears could hear differences and pulsations. This raises the question, how do more complex guitar/amp/speaker/mic relationships effect phase. I've heard somewhere that these phase effects account for the Fender "sparkle" and Vox "bell-like" perceive tones. Who knows. Today, the music we hear is so processed, compressed and manipulated that it seems futile to focus on any one element in the audio chain.
We should just admit that we just enjoy building and comparing different amps and, like all enthusiasts, the lore is what keeps us going.
The real question is what does our hearing respond to? Clearly output frequency response is primary and as Jimm Lill demonstrated, for all amps that can be replicated from amp to amp. But what other parameters did he miss? For instance, I suggest any computer savvy audiophile generate a two-tone sine wave and adjust the phase between the two tones. (Or just look at the plot of the square of the product of the two waves as our ears do.) To my skeptical surprise, even my dull ears could hear differences and pulsations. This raises the question, how do more complex guitar/amp/speaker/mic relationships effect phase. I've heard somewhere that these phase effects account for the Fender "sparkle" and Vox "bell-like" perceive tones. Who knows. Today, the music we hear is so processed, compressed and manipulated that it seems futile to focus on any one element in the audio chain.
We should just admit that we just enjoy building and comparing different amps and, like all enthusiasts, the lore is what keeps us going.
Some people do.
Thought experiment; obtain an amp with zero harmonic distortion. Build a 2nd order generator, perhaps a squaring circuit and mix that in with the original input signal at a variable level. Arrange for the phase of it to be sweep-able between 0 - 360 deg, so one can set the 2nd harmonic in phase, 180 deg out of phase, or anywhere in between relative to the input.
Do that for the third also, having sort of a Hammond organ arrangement with sliders for level and phase. Now go play with such an arrangement - what do you hear across various adjustments?
Unsure how to build the above in analog, but I'm pretty sure DSP could do it.
Well, it used to be primary when we were young. As that ability diminished, phase starts becoming more "important". Because - I'll proudly stick my neck out - the ears FR losses dont effect its phase discrimination at frequencies it can still perceive. It's not like a big second order low pass filter plopped over the top of the ears ideal FR.
So from 8k on down you still perceive phase shifts just fine. This is important because as you age, you can still navigate through space auditorially (looks like I made up that word...) by sensing phase changes of sounds in the environment through which you move.
My BS for the day!
That is what has been done. When Steinburg invented the VST plugin there is many iterations and companies that have built emulations of classic guitar amps.
Likewise emulations of classic guitar speakers. Before that numerous hardware versions.
The old hardware, and especially the software wrap it up well. Specific models that are unique and offer significance are well covered and emulated.
Another thousand or so copies are just left out.
Correct many amps sound the same because they all copied each other. Then many amps sound different and created either something new that is notable.
Or famous artist or band made them famous in a recording. So certain models are well copied or the originals are heavily marketed.
Eminence speaker put themselves on the map, first with a custom 18" speaker for bass amps. That was the real challenge because bass amps went from 50 watts to 300 watts around 68/69 with the transistor. Then the real game changer for special design was the 10" speaker also for bass amps. Both the 18" and 10" were done for Ampeg.
Other than that the main speakers were 15" for bass and actually guitar as well. JBL and Altec drivers. Not underhung radio speakers.
The standard high power designs developed by JBL and Lansing to keep up with louder music, the transistor and large concerts proven by Woodstock
were now a business interest.
Rickenbacker , Gibson and Fender the first major guitar amps. Besides Valco which made amplifiers wholesale and rebranded for hundreds of companies
The most copied amplifiers being early Gibson and Fender. spawned the other popular brands Marshall and Vox.
Then numerous " master volume" heads or basically pre amps that made distortion.
And the gains got higher and higher and higher.
The Guitar Eminence speakers are copies of the underhung speaker classics. They like to rebrand the same 5 speakers into a huge overwhelming
Series of " Patriots" and " Red Coats" basically american or british copies. And basically all open back underhung speakers that came from
the 30's and 40's for radio. Used by Valco and Fender till the mid 60's when music got louder and concerts got bigger.
Fender , Sunn, Acoustic used closed back when entering the high power era from 67 upward and a big jump in 70 after 69 Woodstock All normal overhung speakers for live sound.
Fender and most others did high quality clean drivers from JBL and Altec.
Marshall with copied fender Bassman, used radio speakers in sealed 4x12, Used by Jimi Hendrix set the typical guitar trend seen today.
There is literally Hundreds of copies of 3 basic designs done by Celestion. Underhung radio speakers from 30s and 40s upgraded with modern voicecoil material. AKA Celestion G12 and the many versions they did mainly 55 Hz and 75 Hz models. Specified by the speaker Fs
Last edited:
If all guitar amps sounded the same I wouldn't have given my late 80's vintage "20 watt" solid state Crate amp to my oldest grandkid along with a Chinese copy of a Fender Jazz bass on which my short fat fingers can't span more than two frets. I couldn't stand to hear a guitar played through that thing.
As I stated in another thread somewhere, one can simulate HiFi amps in LT Spice because the goals are usually "lowest THD for a given power output with a descending harmonic profile." One cannot ask LT spice for an amp that "rocks, crunches, chimes, chugs, or any of the other typical guitar amp "tones."
This has me going back to the way I did it before I really understood what I was doing. Collect a lot of tubes, transformers, and related parts, then draw out a "first guess" schematic, then build it and tweak away. When I made some amps for friends back in the 80's I would ask them to go to one of the big music stores in Miami with their guitar and play every amp possible regardless of price, then pick one you liked. Guitar amp schematics were not so easy to find then since the internet did not exist, so some peeking and guessing was in order. Often knowing the tube lineup and feature set was enough to get started. After all, there are only so many ways to connect up a 12AX7.
To make the guessing and tweaking aspect easier, I am rebuilding my TubeLab breadboarding system. TubeLab I was the first iteration back in the 90's. It worked but was quite limited in scope. TubeLab II was an exercise in too much and went into the trash before it was finished. TubeLab III was a success, but the screw terminals were a bit time consuming. When my engineering career ended and I moved out of Florida the breadboard itself found its way here, bit all of the individual modules were lost. I am currently making new ones with push lock wire grabbing connectors and a few new and useful features. The picture shows an 80 watt mono HiFi amp that was first built on TubeLab III. When it became time to start a company, or choose a username here, the choice was easy.
Because I can design and build guitar amps. I can't make a speaker and would not know how even if I had the capabilities. I tend to stick to what I can get cheap from Parts Express and tweak the amp to get the sound that I want.
As I stated in another thread somewhere, one can simulate HiFi amps in LT Spice because the goals are usually "lowest THD for a given power output with a descending harmonic profile." One cannot ask LT spice for an amp that "rocks, crunches, chimes, chugs, or any of the other typical guitar amp "tones."
This has me going back to the way I did it before I really understood what I was doing. Collect a lot of tubes, transformers, and related parts, then draw out a "first guess" schematic, then build it and tweak away. When I made some amps for friends back in the 80's I would ask them to go to one of the big music stores in Miami with their guitar and play every amp possible regardless of price, then pick one you liked. Guitar amp schematics were not so easy to find then since the internet did not exist, so some peeking and guessing was in order. Often knowing the tube lineup and feature set was enough to get started. After all, there are only so many ways to connect up a 12AX7.
To make the guessing and tweaking aspect easier, I am rebuilding my TubeLab breadboarding system. TubeLab I was the first iteration back in the 90's. It worked but was quite limited in scope. TubeLab II was an exercise in too much and went into the trash before it was finished. TubeLab III was a success, but the screw terminals were a bit time consuming. When my engineering career ended and I moved out of Florida the breadboard itself found its way here, bit all of the individual modules were lost. I am currently making new ones with push lock wire grabbing connectors and a few new and useful features. The picture shows an 80 watt mono HiFi amp that was first built on TubeLab III. When it became time to start a company, or choose a username here, the choice was easy.
Attachments
I think phase differences would be perceived as amplitude oscillations in the ear (shimmer?). Must be some studies on that (Hello Google). Intermodulation distortion and subharmonics are there to, in the electronics and in the ear.
I found it interesting that Jim Lill compared the distortion tone for pre-amp vs power amp tubes and found little perceptible difference. What he tried to do that most seat-of-the-pants commenters don't is attempt to control as many of the variables as possible before making a comparison such as flattening the tone stack response and volume.
I'm sure there are many that can discern tone difference that sound all the same to me. :-(
I found it interesting that Jim Lill compared the distortion tone for pre-amp vs power amp tubes and found little perceptible difference. What he tried to do that most seat-of-the-pants commenters don't is attempt to control as many of the variables as possible before making a comparison such as flattening the tone stack response and volume.
I'm sure there are many that can discern tone difference that sound all the same to me. :-(
Actually, it depends. Sometimes it can be amplitude modulation and sometimes frequency modulation. Also, IME sometimes transients may be different from steady state complex-tone perception.
Some example sounds at: https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1/doppler-distortion-vs-imd-7
Also, I have seen a video where a professional guitarist could blindly identify several guitar amps each with all the controls "dime'd" (at 10) without error. Basically, one may be able to find videos that tend to confirm whatever preexisting beliefs one wants to make a case in support of.
Last edited:
Sure yes @Tubelab_com !
No guitar amp sound the same, At best they can sound similar, but that's all ! It's even totally valid for the same amp brand, model and era...
I'd say that differences between guitars amps are undoubtedly night and day evidences compared to audiophile differences.
T
To say a little more, it also depends if we are only talking about summing a few tones. Summing can produce amplitude modulation of the amplitude envelope without creating new frequencies. That type of envelope modulation is called a "beat note."
https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/superposition/superposition.html
For the most part because there is hundreds of examples.
Again the classic story of Marshall Copied the Bassman
And now Hundreds of copies and emulation of early JTM
If you compare a beam tetrode open back 4x10 Bassman
to the Pentode closed Back 4x12 marshall it does sound different.
Then again making thousands of dollars around 91/93
Watching morons burn hours of studio time trying to get a " New " distortion sound.
By playing with amps and cabs
Actual Talent, and the magic of mixing made it happen.
So basically point is Ive heard a JCM 900 or Soldano or Boogie Mark II million times.
Yes they sound different. But after hearing, My god hundreds of talentless musicians.
Trying to be Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins. 20 different cabs 20 different amp rentals.
Hours of sitting around. They all sounded the same on Tape.
It was the notes the melody the songwriting.
Then a good producer with a few tricks to basically make=
Tssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Guitar distortion sound good.
Many " A list" famous producers were good to average.
They get famous recording good bands.
Plenty guys were better, not saying I am, but we did the same things, even more actually.
We were just buried in a schedule of recording krap bands.
And a few got lucky when they made = tsssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sell a few million copies with a good band.
Again the classic story of Marshall Copied the Bassman
And now Hundreds of copies and emulation of early JTM
If you compare a beam tetrode open back 4x10 Bassman
to the Pentode closed Back 4x12 marshall it does sound different.
Then again making thousands of dollars around 91/93
Watching morons burn hours of studio time trying to get a " New " distortion sound.
By playing with amps and cabs
Actual Talent, and the magic of mixing made it happen.
So basically point is Ive heard a JCM 900 or Soldano or Boogie Mark II million times.
Yes they sound different. But after hearing, My god hundreds of talentless musicians.
Trying to be Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins. 20 different cabs 20 different amp rentals.
Hours of sitting around. They all sounded the same on Tape.
It was the notes the melody the songwriting.
Then a good producer with a few tricks to basically make=
Tssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Guitar distortion sound good.
Many " A list" famous producers were good to average.
They get famous recording good bands.
Plenty guys were better, not saying I am, but we did the same things, even more actually.
We were just buried in a schedule of recording krap bands.
And a few got lucky when they made = tsssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sell a few million copies with a good band.
I guess sure.
Like I said after wasting time with the recording industry.
Others have spent the last 28 years doing very extended study of classic amps.
Years of FFT work and going through thousands of amplifier schematics.
To emulate every stage, tone control, effect, tube, type. speaker type.
And emulating the exact complicated waveforms with VST software.
We have gone through room full of classic amps, and effects.
I know what complicated waveforms look like for all those amps and effects.
Looks nothing like this. But understand.
Tube types, gain stages, phase inverters, speakers, speaker cone types
delay lines reverbs, modulation blah blah blah.
I know the waveforms of many classic effects and amps to a tee.
Because I have emulated them to a Tee.
My main interest was effects.
Others have lost their minds to eternity around 2005/08
processor power got high enough to do FFT so microphones and speakers
and full room emulation is possible.
Instead of making macros for every stage of the amplifiers or effects.
It was easier or faster with FFT
But all of us in early stages, did macros emulating part by part.
literally every stage of the amp or effect, and verified the waveform to match.
I thoroughly agree with WhiteDragon's point about mixing vs gear vs talent. Record a Beatles cover at home and I'm 99% sure your signal path is better than the original. The difference is they had tons of practice & talent and so did their staff in the booth. Consider the limitations of vinyl & tape, compared to GarageBand! Good music on bad gear always beats bad music on the best gear. Watch any of Rick Beato's or Marcus Miller's interviews about studio work vs touring.
Leaving that aside, my 2 cents is speakers, speakers, speakers!
My only guitar amp is a 2007 Peavey ValveKing Royal 8 that I bought new. It's got one JJ EL84 power tube and one RCA 12AY7, that I subbed for the stock 12AX7. I also subbed a Weber alnico speaker. The combo's volume surprises folks. And it has proper class A dynamics, IF the guitar is plugged directly in without pedals. Without pedals, the guitar really controls the tone - chimey clean to bluesy bark to a wimpy grind, without touching the amp knobs. Except it rattled the tubes, so I mounted the chassis on a board. And I was pretty happy with this setup, since I only play at home.
However, a super nice person recently gave me 3 cabs. A Marshall VS412 with the stock ceramic Celestion G12Ls. A Peavey 112SX Sheffield with a Altec Lansing 417-8C aluminum bell, that seems to work fine. And a SWR Big Ben (16" cone, 19" frame). Since these cabs are all 8ohm like my amp, I had to hear what 5 class A watts could do with them.
And it taught me a lot about speakers. I didn't expect to get anything out of the Big Ben. But it ran if I cranked the gain & master. That was just for a fun experiment in feedback. The altec sounded plenty loud (MUCH louder than the 8" Weber), but kinda shrill. From what I've read, this is a very heavy duty speaker and my amp probably can't push the coil far enough to produce lows. The Peavey cab has a removable half-back and the Altec does sound more balanced with that open. What surprised me is the (entry-level) Marshall. It sounds fantastic with my 5 watt head. Like they were made for each other. And since my tubes & transformers are on top, I can tell they aren't overheating. That really surprised me.
If this half-stack arrangement is a bad idea, please let me know. Flyback voltage? Stuff like that.
Leaving that aside, my 2 cents is speakers, speakers, speakers!
My only guitar amp is a 2007 Peavey ValveKing Royal 8 that I bought new. It's got one JJ EL84 power tube and one RCA 12AY7, that I subbed for the stock 12AX7. I also subbed a Weber alnico speaker. The combo's volume surprises folks. And it has proper class A dynamics, IF the guitar is plugged directly in without pedals. Without pedals, the guitar really controls the tone - chimey clean to bluesy bark to a wimpy grind, without touching the amp knobs. Except it rattled the tubes, so I mounted the chassis on a board. And I was pretty happy with this setup, since I only play at home.
However, a super nice person recently gave me 3 cabs. A Marshall VS412 with the stock ceramic Celestion G12Ls. A Peavey 112SX Sheffield with a Altec Lansing 417-8C aluminum bell, that seems to work fine. And a SWR Big Ben (16" cone, 19" frame). Since these cabs are all 8ohm like my amp, I had to hear what 5 class A watts could do with them.
And it taught me a lot about speakers. I didn't expect to get anything out of the Big Ben. But it ran if I cranked the gain & master. That was just for a fun experiment in feedback. The altec sounded plenty loud (MUCH louder than the 8" Weber), but kinda shrill. From what I've read, this is a very heavy duty speaker and my amp probably can't push the coil far enough to produce lows. The Peavey cab has a removable half-back and the Altec does sound more balanced with that open. What surprised me is the (entry-level) Marshall. It sounds fantastic with my 5 watt head. Like they were made for each other. And since my tubes & transformers are on top, I can tell they aren't overheating. That really surprised me.
If this half-stack arrangement is a bad idea, please let me know. Flyback voltage? Stuff like that.
Depends what you are doing.
But for good bass and tone usually a close back.
If your in a loud band, usually a 4x12 and slant top Marshall.
The cab sits low or normal 4x12 so a slant top helps. It is a stage monitor basically.
Blues tone open back 1x12 or 2x12 combo.
probably a million repainted remarked rebranded special design artist design blah blah celestion.
Basically heavy or light cone 55 Hz or 75 Hz , bigger magnet 55 Hz now a lead woo hoo.
Same old Vintage 30 or G12L or G12M with a million different suffixes
Rivera did a special design basically a G12L-55
And then you have Mesa Boogie Factories
Basically sum up all you need, rather have the EVM
Basically Electro Voice EVM12L done, work fine for everything.
For nit picky artists, Boogie did 55 or 75 Hz cones as well.
Same old Classic lead 80 or Celestion 12L
Basically any " Black Shadow" rather Celestion or EVM all done.
Same with Marshall every 10 years or so they do some "Heritage" speaker.
So whatever 80's 90's 2000's " Heritage " cabs whatever silver thingy speaker in there= Good all done
Eminence did about 6 or 7 baskets / front plates/ magnets that copy a EVM or 55 Hz or 75 Hz celestion.
With all the various " Lead" or " Rhythm" cones and magnet sizes. 75 Hz lead 55 Hz rhythm bigger magnet 55 Hz now a " lead"
So you can waste the rest of your life reading add copy for 60 different speakers. Which use the same old legend Basket/ Magnet.
With likely 40 different cones to change them. Been painted blue, brown ,red ,black ,every color of the rainbow for OEM amps.
With a sticker that says blah blah blah special design.
Evm
Legend EM12
EM12N
Celestion things
Legend V128
Legend VGB128
Legend 1218
1258
1275
10" legend 1058 or 1028 alnico or ceramic
30 zillion different cones, paint it red or paint it blue.
Put your company name on it, pick a color
But for good bass and tone usually a close back.
If your in a loud band, usually a 4x12 and slant top Marshall.
The cab sits low or normal 4x12 so a slant top helps. It is a stage monitor basically.
Blues tone open back 1x12 or 2x12 combo.
probably a million repainted remarked rebranded special design artist design blah blah celestion.
Basically heavy or light cone 55 Hz or 75 Hz , bigger magnet 55 Hz now a lead woo hoo.
Same old Vintage 30 or G12L or G12M with a million different suffixes
Rivera did a special design basically a G12L-55
And then you have Mesa Boogie Factories
Basically sum up all you need, rather have the EVM
Basically Electro Voice EVM12L done, work fine for everything.
For nit picky artists, Boogie did 55 or 75 Hz cones as well.
Same old Classic lead 80 or Celestion 12L
Basically any " Black Shadow" rather Celestion or EVM all done.
Same with Marshall every 10 years or so they do some "Heritage" speaker.
So whatever 80's 90's 2000's " Heritage " cabs whatever silver thingy speaker in there= Good all done
Eminence did about 6 or 7 baskets / front plates/ magnets that copy a EVM or 55 Hz or 75 Hz celestion.
With all the various " Lead" or " Rhythm" cones and magnet sizes. 75 Hz lead 55 Hz rhythm bigger magnet 55 Hz now a " lead"
So you can waste the rest of your life reading add copy for 60 different speakers. Which use the same old legend Basket/ Magnet.
With likely 40 different cones to change them. Been painted blue, brown ,red ,black ,every color of the rainbow for OEM amps.
With a sticker that says blah blah blah special design.
Evm
Legend EM12
EM12N
Celestion things
Legend V128
Legend VGB128
Legend 1218
1258
1275
10" legend 1058 or 1028 alnico or ceramic
30 zillion different cones, paint it red or paint it blue.
Put your company name on it, pick a color