Pan said:
I am kidding on how we humans can just adapt in test situations that can prove our 'nothing more than good enough makes a difference' side (ABX), as easily as we can adapt in extremely personal preference tuning in the long run (subjectivist mix n' match). Its just amazing but both can be proven right. All competent amps practically the same VS all having their own distinct voice. The human brain is a dirty rotten scoundrel!
Alike many of you i am 48 years trying to answer this question
Now a days trying to understand why NAD3020 is so popular.
I found that brain adjust eryvething.... you have readed everything to this last word.... brain was engaged.... we fill the gaps, we correct unballances into the tones... also we are fooled the same way we use to be fooled with our vision... the brain is not perfect as measurement instrument.... people has many "brain departments".... emotions, politically correct and many others..so... we react depending of long processing that use to happens in 5 seconds.
Into the first five seconds, better to be 4.... you will be able to evaluate the audio reproduction quality.... and this is referenced to some "memory of quality" if you have played musical instruments and have listened alive Orchestras and have listened also recordings of "live Orchestras".with all errors, filters, compressors, expanders, limiters, reverberations.... this way you have a reasonable experience, a good reference for evaluation and almost all of us have that.
You have not the musical memory....but sounds play into your head....you can remember musics...but not with the quality needed to compare....so...we need A to B and blind testing.
Group listening will have psychological factors, as the "king new clothes tale"... we observe others and we have the need to agree with our group and to have almost the same conclusion...this is social.... humans are social.
All amplifiers, all speakers, home and recordings sounds different... and you can perceive into A to B testing... and have to switch very fast from one to the other...also cannot see the equipment is playing.... how it looks, the price it has will affect your evaluation.
This is what move us... this search for perfection we will never find..but the interesting is the search..... also there's no perfection into alive music...reverberations, people coffing, noises, wind. people talking, environment absorbs some tones and reflect others.... so.... we are having fun... for sure they sound different.
If you wait to capacitors burn in or something alike..... you brain will adjust everything... and them you will believe capacitors have burned in.... when you switch off and on once again, into the next day, the whole story will start all over again.
Audio quality, for humans, have nothing about measurements...also nothing about distortions...we do not even listen square waves.... ears plus brain has delays, because electro chemical processing...so... wave shape, to the brain, is never square.
There are unballances of tone (perceived) that makes some amplifier sound more interesting than others.... but hard to measure...if you go measure they measure flat!
People evaluating things without A to B is a tragedy.... they believe they have memory... in 1 second that memory is deleted..have to switch very fast, and repeat this many times.
People that believes that we can be biased are induced to be hard with their own designs or constructions, just not to be self indulgent...so...they try hard to be fair.... and fair in this case results into the sacrifice of your prefered equipment in the name of justice, to be fair your "politically correct department" makes you decide against your own design, your own construction, your prefered one....just to prove to yourself and the world, you are a great listener, a great evaluator.
Cannot see what is playing...cannot know designers.... cannot know brands...the power must be the same...other guy must operate switches... this way you can achieve better precision into evaluate something.
And this feed our hobby with ethernal lovely search... the best you have found is almost beeing eated into the breakfast by the next one you will compare that will have the chance to be the winner....or maybe not.
Brain creates the illusion we like....our wife and sons are not the most beautifull people in this world...but you believe that and you feel this way.... so.... we are humans.
I am, now a days, deeply into the research to understand why NAD 3220 and others are so famous.... and i am reading old reviews....they copy one each other!... one said dinamics other said "dinamic headrom"...one said transparent and other said fluid... well... seems one read what other one have written, as those magazines are not published same time.... and they created a possible Myth about that...alike the old tale, the King new clothes, i will not be surprised, while listening the NAD i am building, that one children will ask me to reduce the volume because the audio is "Crab!"
regards,
Carlos
Now a days trying to understand why NAD3020 is so popular.
I found that brain adjust eryvething.... you have readed everything to this last word.... brain was engaged.... we fill the gaps, we correct unballances into the tones... also we are fooled the same way we use to be fooled with our vision... the brain is not perfect as measurement instrument.... people has many "brain departments".... emotions, politically correct and many others..so... we react depending of long processing that use to happens in 5 seconds.
Into the first five seconds, better to be 4.... you will be able to evaluate the audio reproduction quality.... and this is referenced to some "memory of quality" if you have played musical instruments and have listened alive Orchestras and have listened also recordings of "live Orchestras".with all errors, filters, compressors, expanders, limiters, reverberations.... this way you have a reasonable experience, a good reference for evaluation and almost all of us have that.
You have not the musical memory....but sounds play into your head....you can remember musics...but not with the quality needed to compare....so...we need A to B and blind testing.
Group listening will have psychological factors, as the "king new clothes tale"... we observe others and we have the need to agree with our group and to have almost the same conclusion...this is social.... humans are social.
All amplifiers, all speakers, home and recordings sounds different... and you can perceive into A to B testing... and have to switch very fast from one to the other...also cannot see the equipment is playing.... how it looks, the price it has will affect your evaluation.
This is what move us... this search for perfection we will never find..but the interesting is the search..... also there's no perfection into alive music...reverberations, people coffing, noises, wind. people talking, environment absorbs some tones and reflect others.... so.... we are having fun... for sure they sound different.
If you wait to capacitors burn in or something alike..... you brain will adjust everything... and them you will believe capacitors have burned in.... when you switch off and on once again, into the next day, the whole story will start all over again.
Audio quality, for humans, have nothing about measurements...also nothing about distortions...we do not even listen square waves.... ears plus brain has delays, because electro chemical processing...so... wave shape, to the brain, is never square.
There are unballances of tone (perceived) that makes some amplifier sound more interesting than others.... but hard to measure...if you go measure they measure flat!
People evaluating things without A to B is a tragedy.... they believe they have memory... in 1 second that memory is deleted..have to switch very fast, and repeat this many times.
People that believes that we can be biased are induced to be hard with their own designs or constructions, just not to be self indulgent...so...they try hard to be fair.... and fair in this case results into the sacrifice of your prefered equipment in the name of justice, to be fair your "politically correct department" makes you decide against your own design, your own construction, your prefered one....just to prove to yourself and the world, you are a great listener, a great evaluator.
Cannot see what is playing...cannot know designers.... cannot know brands...the power must be the same...other guy must operate switches... this way you can achieve better precision into evaluate something.
And this feed our hobby with ethernal lovely search... the best you have found is almost beeing eated into the breakfast by the next one you will compare that will have the chance to be the winner....or maybe not.
Brain creates the illusion we like....our wife and sons are not the most beautifull people in this world...but you believe that and you feel this way.... so.... we are humans.
I am, now a days, deeply into the research to understand why NAD 3220 and others are so famous.... and i am reading old reviews....they copy one each other!... one said dinamics other said "dinamic headrom"...one said transparent and other said fluid... well... seems one read what other one have written, as those magazines are not published same time.... and they created a possible Myth about that...alike the old tale, the King new clothes, i will not be surprised, while listening the NAD i am building, that one children will ask me to reduce the volume because the audio is "Crab!"
regards,
Carlos
i believe the reason that some amp sell more than the others is simply because they "have high-end like performance at a low-end cost"😀
Re: Alike many of you i am 48 years trying to answer this question
Hello Carlos
My first amp, in the 80's, was a NAD3020, it was a nice sounding amp but I did replace it by a Crimson amp and the Crimson did sound better.
There was few NAD3020 versions; 3020, 3020A, 3020B, 3020e and 3020i.
For those who want to know a bit about that amp, here is schematics of two version of the NAD3020;
http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/manuals/3020b_schematic.gif
http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/manuals/3020i_schematic.gif
Bye
Gaetan
destroyer X said:
Hello Carlos
My first amp, in the 80's, was a NAD3020, it was a nice sounding amp but I did replace it by a Crimson amp and the Crimson did sound better.
There was few NAD3020 versions; 3020, 3020A, 3020B, 3020e and 3020i.
For those who want to know a bit about that amp, here is schematics of two version of the NAD3020;
http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/manuals/3020b_schematic.gif
http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/manuals/3020i_schematic.gif
Bye
Gaetan
Means the unit, the model is not really special dear Gaetan
Was good your informations because i was intending to build...but based in your informs, i think will be better to give up.
Seems the unit was good to its price range and down the seventies.
Thank you.... i know you have experience...if you said Crimson was better.... the NAD chapter is closed to me.
Carlos
Was good your informations because i was intending to build...but based in your informs, i think will be better to give up.
Seems the unit was good to its price range and down the seventies.
Thank you.... i know you have experience...if you said Crimson was better.... the NAD chapter is closed to me.
Carlos
Re: Means the unit, the model is not really special dear Gaetan
So quick to be sidelined? I guess it's HN to try to distill all things to a simple discription.
The 3020 had a reputation for a reason. Although not perfect in an absolute sense, it did possess a quality that gained it it's reputation. Well worth looking into as part of the big picture. Although I don't think the differences will be found by building a copy from the schematic; there's more to all of this than devices and operating points.
Cheers, George.
destroyer X said:
So quick to be sidelined? I guess it's HN to try to distill all things to a simple discription.
The 3020 had a reputation for a reason. Although not perfect in an absolute sense, it did possess a quality that gained it it's reputation. Well worth looking into as part of the big picture. Although I don't think the differences will be found by building a copy from the schematic; there's more to all of this than devices and operating points.
Cheers, George.
I know Gaetan a very long, long time...he is extremelly skilled into listening good
brands....he lives inside a forest.... have silence and close contact with God.... listening the leaves touching one to the other and birds singing.
Always listening good sound equipment he has or he had, and visiting friends that have special brands, special speakers.
There are some folks that we trust completelly and entirelly.
Sorry if i am deceptive to you my dear...but.... if Gaetan said nothing special i have no doubts to give up.... and he was not the first...another good Eastern European friend told me the same.
"nothing special"...good for it's price range and to the seventies and eigthies only.
Gaetan did that because he is a good friend, also knows how i use to evaluate amplifier, he has made one of mine...he knows what is good and what is reasonable to me.... he tried to save my time and avoid frustrations, and i thank him very much because he runned to help me.
More than 4000 amplifiers already made by me searching for the "nirvana" or "paradise" sonics.... i have never found.... he knows i am frustrated and hard tired of that search.... tried to protect me.
regards,
Carlos
brands....he lives inside a forest.... have silence and close contact with God.... listening the leaves touching one to the other and birds singing.
Always listening good sound equipment he has or he had, and visiting friends that have special brands, special speakers.
There are some folks that we trust completelly and entirelly.
Sorry if i am deceptive to you my dear...but.... if Gaetan said nothing special i have no doubts to give up.... and he was not the first...another good Eastern European friend told me the same.
"nothing special"...good for it's price range and to the seventies and eigthies only.
Gaetan did that because he is a good friend, also knows how i use to evaluate amplifier, he has made one of mine...he knows what is good and what is reasonable to me.... he tried to save my time and avoid frustrations, and i thank him very much because he runned to help me.
More than 4000 amplifiers already made by me searching for the "nirvana" or "paradise" sonics.... i have never found.... he knows i am frustrated and hard tired of that search.... tried to protect me.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Alike many of you i am 48 years trying to answer this question
He, he. So, unless you spend your listening time switching very fast between amplifiers there is just no point having a good amp.
Seen Memento? Or you can't remember?
destroyer X said:
He, he. So, unless you spend your listening time switching very fast between amplifiers there is just no point having a good amp.
Seen Memento? Or you can't remember?
Yes..it is hard to perceive small differences
switching fast you can listen the same musical sequence into both amplifiers.
regards,
Carlos
switching fast you can listen the same musical sequence into both amplifiers.
regards,
Carlos
Tell me about it, i can still hear the very last Yamaha i encountered, and it wasn't a cheapo.
Interesting Tinitus.... i know the man you are, skilled into music
May have violine sound in your mind... can detect small variations.
I will think about that Tinitus, how this can dennie or reinforce my ideas about.
For sure i will spend some hours thinking about that.... i repeat, ...i know the man you are.... you have my respect, you are not the one to say foolishes...if you say sound remains, i will try to check that and study that.
Once again i have to say, i cannot plug my brain into other folks brain to understand what they perceive.... we have always strong possibilities, chances that other guys can listen detail we cannot.
People is skilled in many things...i am very good to watch eyes and faces to understand what people is feeling inside their heart and brain.... others cannot see that...so, there are differences related people.
I can accept i can be wrong, and will be good to change my mind.... but i have to feel the insigth and understand by myself...i am not a believer about nothing... i have doubts even that i am not a believer.... this is because i have resistances to those strange things called fate.
regards,
Carlos
May have violine sound in your mind... can detect small variations.
I will think about that Tinitus, how this can dennie or reinforce my ideas about.
For sure i will spend some hours thinking about that.... i repeat, ...i know the man you are.... you have my respect, you are not the one to say foolishes...if you say sound remains, i will try to check that and study that.
Once again i have to say, i cannot plug my brain into other folks brain to understand what they perceive.... we have always strong possibilities, chances that other guys can listen detail we cannot.
People is skilled in many things...i am very good to watch eyes and faces to understand what people is feeling inside their heart and brain.... others cannot see that...so, there are differences related people.
I can accept i can be wrong, and will be good to change my mind.... but i have to feel the insigth and understand by myself...i am not a believer about nothing... i have doubts even that i am not a believer.... this is because i have resistances to those strange things called fate.
regards,
Carlos
Jacco my dear big brain man
One the most developed brains in our forum
I am sorry because of that.... you may be very unhappy, a you see things others cannot.
Stupidus en es fenestrum est multiplum
quo revertere ad locum tum
Et pluribus unum... dominus vobiscum!
Carlos
One the most developed brains in our forum
I am sorry because of that.... you may be very unhappy, a you see things others cannot.
Stupidus en es fenestrum est multiplum
quo revertere ad locum tum
Et pluribus unum... dominus vobiscum!
Carlos
Thanks Carlos, you are all too kind
Ahhh, I like foolishness...in my world we are right and we are wrong, at the same time, mostly...it all depends how we see it
I think some people underestimate the human mind, saying that its all tricks playing with our mind...to me human mind is very reliable...we only have to learn and understand how to use it right and not fool ourselves...some will say I am already fooling myself now
Ehh, almost on topic
btw, congrats with your DX success
Ahhh, I like foolishness...in my world we are right and we are wrong, at the same time, mostly...it all depends how we see it
I think some people underestimate the human mind, saying that its all tricks playing with our mind...to me human mind is very reliable...we only have to learn and understand how to use it right and not fool ourselves...some will say I am already fooling myself now
Ehh, almost on topic
btw, congrats with your DX success
Yes Tinitus... very clever from you to perceive that we do fool ourselves all time
long.
Nice amplifier Jacco.
regards,
Carlos
long.
Nice amplifier Jacco.
regards,
Carlos
Hello Carlos and George
In the 80's, wen I did have my Nad3020 I did use it with a Ariston turntable and a Grace tonearm with a Ortofon cell, and a Peagent Mordaunt-Short loudspeaker, the Crimson amp did have a better soundstage and a better dynamic, but I should say that my Crimson did stike me by the high quality of is sound so I did never forget it and it was the first high-end kit amp I've buy in that time. The only thing I don't remember are if it was a big sound quality differences between the Nad and Crimson amps. But today there is better amps.
But I'm into making an amp and it should be for long time, for me if I love the sound and come very close to some references amps I will be very happy.
Btw, at the Montreal Audio Show, in April, I did ear a VTL tube amp, it was a superb sound with huge soundstage listening some of my cd's, it beat my modified Radford amp, and that thing just beat some very costly amps at the show. I did know only theory about tube amps and never take time to really listen the good one but some out there are very very good, but I find transistors amps more convenient to made because there is no costly output tubes and transformer.
Wen we listen a sound system we need a reference like some good live concerts (classical or jazz) because sometimes the recording, the amp, the cd player or the speakers can give a sound far from reality, I love to have lot of air between musical instruments and lot of definition but I know that sometime the soundstage are nice but not realistic. But we can not expect more than an excellent copy of the live music since nothing replace a live concert. Sometime we are surprise to find out that we like more the good recording than the live concert but some sound engeneer are very good into giving illusion of a more dynamic sound and huge soundstage and sometime they enhance it.
Bye
Gaetan
In the 80's, wen I did have my Nad3020 I did use it with a Ariston turntable and a Grace tonearm with a Ortofon cell, and a Peagent Mordaunt-Short loudspeaker, the Crimson amp did have a better soundstage and a better dynamic, but I should say that my Crimson did stike me by the high quality of is sound so I did never forget it and it was the first high-end kit amp I've buy in that time. The only thing I don't remember are if it was a big sound quality differences between the Nad and Crimson amps. But today there is better amps.
But I'm into making an amp and it should be for long time, for me if I love the sound and come very close to some references amps I will be very happy.
Btw, at the Montreal Audio Show, in April, I did ear a VTL tube amp, it was a superb sound with huge soundstage listening some of my cd's, it beat my modified Radford amp, and that thing just beat some very costly amps at the show. I did know only theory about tube amps and never take time to really listen the good one but some out there are very very good, but I find transistors amps more convenient to made because there is no costly output tubes and transformer.
Wen we listen a sound system we need a reference like some good live concerts (classical or jazz) because sometimes the recording, the amp, the cd player or the speakers can give a sound far from reality, I love to have lot of air between musical instruments and lot of definition but I know that sometime the soundstage are nice but not realistic. But we can not expect more than an excellent copy of the live music since nothing replace a live concert. Sometime we are surprise to find out that we like more the good recording than the live concert but some sound engeneer are very good into giving illusion of a more dynamic sound and huge soundstage and sometime they enhance it.
Bye
Gaetan
People alike you Gaetan, also Tinitus and some others...people able to build Violines
also a Croatian friend i have, the one tune pianos without instruments, and when finish he use instruments to check he have tuned all strings into the frequency... and do not make mistakes...able to find the frequency with his own ears (brain) without the tone generators and frequency meters..... well....people alike you have my respect.
The amplifier you said as good will be built, will be bougth and will be listened by me.... for sure.
It is a pitty Gaetan, you do not have your own amplifier to offer us..because if you tell us it is good....for sure it will be.
People alike you, and some others we have, are precious stones found in this forum.... as you are a "reference" of quality.
Another one that is a very good man into high quality sounding amplifiers is Doctor Bora...... he may know the tricks to re-create sound stage...informs arrived, very fresh, about his last Studio amplifier..... important people (to me) said sounds excelent.
regards,
Carlos
also a Croatian friend i have, the one tune pianos without instruments, and when finish he use instruments to check he have tuned all strings into the frequency... and do not make mistakes...able to find the frequency with his own ears (brain) without the tone generators and frequency meters..... well....people alike you have my respect.
The amplifier you said as good will be built, will be bougth and will be listened by me.... for sure.
It is a pitty Gaetan, you do not have your own amplifier to offer us..because if you tell us it is good....for sure it will be.
People alike you, and some others we have, are precious stones found in this forum.... as you are a "reference" of quality.
Another one that is a very good man into high quality sounding amplifiers is Doctor Bora...... he may know the tricks to re-create sound stage...informs arrived, very fresh, about his last Studio amplifier..... important people (to me) said sounds excelent.
regards,
Carlos
Hello Carlos
I'm a bit better in amp making than a year ago and thank to you, Hugh Dean and few others, Hugh teach me things that I will not find in any books, but compared to him and some other guys in the forum I'm just a beginer.
Wen I need to be sure about an amp sound quality I do ask a friend in Montreal who have very very good ear and who can listen this amp.
I did have a violin making course years ago and to be really good you need years of work, but there is more and more peoples who buy chineese made violin, so now it is become only a hobby for me..
For those who want to know more about violin making here is some good web sites;
http://www.catgutacoustical.org/
http://www.vanzandtviolins.com/dvz-resources.htm
http://www.henrystrobel.com/
http://www.centrum.is/hansi/
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Bye
Gaetan
I'm a bit better in amp making than a year ago and thank to you, Hugh Dean and few others, Hugh teach me things that I will not find in any books, but compared to him and some other guys in the forum I'm just a beginer.
Wen I need to be sure about an amp sound quality I do ask a friend in Montreal who have very very good ear and who can listen this amp.
I did have a violin making course years ago and to be really good you need years of work, but there is more and more peoples who buy chineese made violin, so now it is become only a hobby for me..
For those who want to know more about violin making here is some good web sites;
http://www.catgutacoustical.org/
http://www.vanzandtviolins.com/dvz-resources.htm
http://www.henrystrobel.com/
http://www.centrum.is/hansi/
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Bye
Gaetan
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