I've heard that one should sand the skin off the XPS foam, but it looks from the pictures like you haven't? Any thoughts on that? I've got some foam, and some exciters, but I haven't done it up because I haven't been able to decide how I wanted to mount it. The giant "study of DMLs" thread has too many posts, I haven't wanted to attack it yet.
Ha, I asked a similar question on that thread, here is the answer:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...s-as-a-full-range-speaker.272576/post-7268726
He goes into more detail later on sanding and EPS, which I believe is his material of choice.
I sanded my 1.0 panels. Sanding, rounding corners, painting, make little to no difference that I can hear. the frame made a huge difference with the bass. When I mentioned that on the long thread, one of the veterans was like, "yeah, that's why you have a frame." But I'd spent a long time on that thread and never made the connection between a frame and bass; it's hard to follow.
for mounting, I'm running 3 strips of plywood, the leftover from the sheet I made the frames with, on my wall with basic drywall anchors. The frames have pocket holes drilled with a Kreg jig and will screw into the strips. without the Kreg, I'd glue tabs to the side of the frame to screw through.
Spedge said:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...s-as-a-full-range-speaker.272576/post-7268726
He goes into more detail later on sanding and EPS, which I believe is his material of choice.
I sanded my 1.0 panels. Sanding, rounding corners, painting, make little to no difference that I can hear. the frame made a huge difference with the bass. When I mentioned that on the long thread, one of the veterans was like, "yeah, that's why you have a frame." But I'd spent a long time on that thread and never made the connection between a frame and bass; it's hard to follow.
for mounting, I'm running 3 strips of plywood, the leftover from the sheet I made the frames with, on my wall with basic drywall anchors. The frames have pocket holes drilled with a Kreg jig and will screw into the strips. without the Kreg, I'd glue tabs to the side of the frame to screw through.
Wow, I had no idea. The DML space really seems like the wild west, it's hard to know what's going on. I wouldn't have guessed that you could just glue the stuff to a board frame with wood glue. I look forward to seeing how your project progresses. DMLs seem like like an interesting tech to try, but your comment about build quality rings true, I don't just want a XPS board that has to sit on a dining room chair or something.
For those who stumble across who want to mount their speakers vs. hang them, I think this is the simplest way to do it. These three strips above are just secured with two small drywall screws each (should probably add a third). The first picture on this thread is of a pocket hole, for those who haven't seen such a thing. Four of these holes for 4 screws to secure it firmly to the wall. With the frame plus this secure mounting, the sound is more full and substantially better bass. It measures strong down to 80 hz at least, which is about where I had my sub crossover prior to the frame discovery.
I'm going with the 3/5s by 3/5s exciter mounting. The next two pictures are of the exciter mounting to the spine. Thanks to the experts on the main thread, I learned that the little hole on the back of my thrusters is for a machine screw for mounting. The documentation does not mention this.
Do you need a spine? One of the veterans on the main thread is adamant that the spine does not increase sound quality and has tested substantially. So it goes, the claim is that the weight of the exciter will distort the voice coil over time. Frame yes; spine no. Well, I figured I've gone this far I might as well build the spine. That tiny screw is barely adequate if that. It's still hard for me to believe that threaded hole is actually for mounting, and isn't an artifact. A single screw to hold an electronic device blasting out energy, and not even a lock washer? It's too weak to hold it to the wood on it's own, so I have it pulling the exciter into a bed of spongy double-sided tape. I took a pic of the screw specifications; got it at Home Depot.
I'm going with the 3/5s by 3/5s exciter mounting. The next two pictures are of the exciter mounting to the spine. Thanks to the experts on the main thread, I learned that the little hole on the back of my thrusters is for a machine screw for mounting. The documentation does not mention this.
Do you need a spine? One of the veterans on the main thread is adamant that the spine does not increase sound quality and has tested substantially. So it goes, the claim is that the weight of the exciter will distort the voice coil over time. Frame yes; spine no. Well, I figured I've gone this far I might as well build the spine. That tiny screw is barely adequate if that. It's still hard for me to believe that threaded hole is actually for mounting, and isn't an artifact. A single screw to hold an electronic device blasting out energy, and not even a lock washer? It's too weak to hold it to the wood on it's own, so I have it pulling the exciter into a bed of spongy double-sided tape. I took a pic of the screw specifications; got it at Home Depot.
Attachments
These thrusters are being re-used, and these two aren't the ones with detachable bases. I pulled off all the old adhesive and just using wood glue for now. You have to attach the speaker cable first, then attach the exciter to the spine, then attach the spine to the frame.
Here's why I could go either way with the spine. Okay, down the road maybe the voice coil will have issues, maybe it won't. But your going to damage the voice coil on day one if you're not very careful about attaching that spine. I attached the spine and then glued, and put about a pound of weight on the spine to make sure it sticks. Once it's dried, now you have this heavy, long piece of wood attached, and tiny movements at the ends will put a lot of leverage against the voice coil. And so you've got to convince yourself that you've got it perfectly straight as you put those screws in. I used a long wood clamp to hold it to the frame, but even with that, the force of an impact driver putting the screw in could change the position slightly.
Here's why I could go either way with the spine. Okay, down the road maybe the voice coil will have issues, maybe it won't. But your going to damage the voice coil on day one if you're not very careful about attaching that spine. I attached the spine and then glued, and put about a pound of weight on the spine to make sure it sticks. Once it's dried, now you have this heavy, long piece of wood attached, and tiny movements at the ends will put a lot of leverage against the voice coil. And so you've got to convince yourself that you've got it perfectly straight as you put those screws in. I used a long wood clamp to hold it to the frame, but even with that, the force of an impact driver putting the screw in could change the position slightly.
Attachments
The second speaker is finished and mounted. I thought the first one sounded good until I heard the second, This latest one is by far the best one I've constructed, not cool because they don't match. Number 3 is on the way and then we can compare.
I'm pretty sure the problem is how tightly the exciter has adhered to the foam. I had this before on a smaller test build. I took it off and it seems tight. Will see how #3 turns out. The first two are both re-used exciters attached with wood glue. The first one, I attached the screws to the spine a few minutes after I mounted it and winced when I realized what I did. I was just too anxious to hear it. sounded great -- still sounds good if I don't compare to the second.
I set a few pounds of weight on them after applying the glue. The second one dried over night with the weights before I attached the spine.
Another note, for the third unit, I was off on connecting the screw to the hole, and the 2-sided tap got it and was too secure to back out and try again, so I'm ditching the screw for that one. Pretty sure the screw doesn't add much.
I'm pretty sure the problem is how tightly the exciter has adhered to the foam. I had this before on a smaller test build. I took it off and it seems tight. Will see how #3 turns out. The first two are both re-used exciters attached with wood glue. The first one, I attached the screws to the spine a few minutes after I mounted it and winced when I realized what I did. I was just too anxious to hear it. sounded great -- still sounds good if I don't compare to the second.
I set a few pounds of weight on them after applying the glue. The second one dried over night with the weights before I attached the spine.
Another note, for the third unit, I was off on connecting the screw to the hole, and the 2-sided tap got it and was too secure to back out and try again, so I'm ditching the screw for that one. Pretty sure the screw doesn't add much.
For the mounting I have in the above picture: the veterans in the main thread gave me hell for it. You know, the whole move the speakers out from the wall by x feet rule. Well, we've seen the many videos of youtubers hanging on the wall, and this method is going to be way better than that. But the veterans have a point, I experimented a little, and the difference is enough to make me re-think how I will put them on that wall. But to really know how good the speakers are going to sound, better get an ideal reference. I've toyed with the idea of either making two sets, or making these dual purpose -- they can be removed from the wall to set up in the center of the room, where I'm testing now.
Anyway, speaker 3 and 4 blew my expectations away. They use the removable thruster as opposed to 1 & 2, and they just sound big, lots of low end. Speaker 2 has stronger mids so maybe the mix will work. I listened to 3 and 4 last night for over an hour with no sub support and I'm speechless.
Dayton has an exciter sale going on, but Amazon ships fast so I got a replacement for #1 overnight, and just barely got it mounted. That fixed the problem; 1&2 sound great now also.
I have 2 class D amps and so tonight I'm going to set the pairs up together at center room so I'll have a better idea of how they compare. On the weekend if I can, I'd like to bring in my (unused) floor-standing speakers and Denon amp and compare. I haven't heard them in years so it's really hard to predict. They are Energy; back in the day, there was this place called Good Guys where you could actually listen and compare speakers before you buy them. I thought these sounded the best for what they had in the relative price range.
What I'd really like to do, I just don't have the space for it I don't think, but Magnepans are getting cheap as heck and it would be awesome to have a set to compare DML builds against.
Anyway, speaker 3 and 4 blew my expectations away. They use the removable thruster as opposed to 1 & 2, and they just sound big, lots of low end. Speaker 2 has stronger mids so maybe the mix will work. I listened to 3 and 4 last night for over an hour with no sub support and I'm speechless.
Dayton has an exciter sale going on, but Amazon ships fast so I got a replacement for #1 overnight, and just barely got it mounted. That fixed the problem; 1&2 sound great now also.
I have 2 class D amps and so tonight I'm going to set the pairs up together at center room so I'll have a better idea of how they compare. On the weekend if I can, I'd like to bring in my (unused) floor-standing speakers and Denon amp and compare. I haven't heard them in years so it's really hard to predict. They are Energy; back in the day, there was this place called Good Guys where you could actually listen and compare speakers before you buy them. I thought these sounded the best for what they had in the relative price range.
What I'd really like to do, I just don't have the space for it I don't think, but Magnepans are getting cheap as heck and it would be awesome to have a set to compare DML builds against.
I think the 1.0 project is done. In the final version they hang by screws on the wall, for better sound they can be moved forward onto the desk and lean at an angle so they aren't parallel to the wall (as Spedge instructed). And then they can also easily be removed and setup elsewhere; clamped. Each tower is bolted together so they are modular.
I got the second Fosi audio TB10A; they have 80~ watt power supplies. So the signal is split off my audio interface and each pair have their own amp. I also have a 6.5" sub with 25w Dayton plate amp. I'm working on a second sub but don't really need it.
A final summary of lessons learned is in order for my fellow DML newbs who are a bit confused given all the incomplete and conflicting info out there.
I started with the coin exciters, and especially with sub support, you can get them sounding pretty darn good with cardboard or foam. I toyed with the idea of making some bookshelf sized speakers out of the coins but scraped it. The coins produce incredible HF. But they were killing my ears, I'd feel sea sick after listening for a half hour and ears would ring the next day. With the larger speakers I've had no issues, even the night I set them up in front of my recliner and blasted them for a couple hours (relatively, peaking around 82 db), I had no issues (last pic; I didn't have matching amps at the time so didn't go too far).
Lessons learned on the big panels. See pic 3; the frame. That's the number 1 missing component from every youtube video copying tech ingredients. For acoustic music, they are truly full range. The night I had them set up (last pic), the first hour or so had no sub support, and the bass sounded great. That's entirely the frame. I discovered it by accident. The veterans on the main thread know about it, but it wasn't discussed during the time I was experimenting. I had build a frame for a coin speaker, hoping for a "tight drum" effect and it didn't do anything. I didn't hurt the sound though, so I built a frame for a junker foam piece, to make sure it didn't mess up the sound. At that point, a frame would make it possible to have a normal rigid speaker that can be mounted and utilized easier than hanging by a wire. When I tested it with a deep cello, I about jumped out of my seat. I grabbed my phone with the free db app and sure enough, it was lighting up below 80 hz where its non-framed partner did nothing. It was like discovering penicillin. So when people following tech ingredients talk about requiring a sub or getting a crossover at 150hz; not true at all. They can stand on their own. Once you get into rock/pop that uses deep electronic drums, sub becomes necessary. Fast metal doesn't seem to work very well even with a sub, but part of the issue is that recording quality makes a big difference, so no verdict. Tool, for instance, sounds great, even without the sub.
My advice is to get the foamular panels, place the exciter at the 2/5 - 2/5 point or in the center if you want, you can hold the exciter to the foam and move it around and see what sounds best for you and then stick it. Don't sand or round corners or any of that stuff yet. See what it sounds like no frills. Then add a frame to one and compare. At that point, IMO, the battle is 90%+ over.
Not much more to say besides get a big exciter, good adhesion, and attach a frame. But if any one other thing is worth mentioning it is the paint. How does the paint affect the sound? I layered the liquitex on my panels pretty heavy, and I think they sound perfect. I did pretty extensive comparisons between a painted vs. non-painted panel before committing. The differences weren't so dramatic (not like the frame) that I could say for sure the paint made a difference. Slight mechanical differences in the exciters, slight placement differences could also explain the difference. I cautiously want to say that the paint made them sound better. I think it dulls them slightly. DMLs are bright and airy, and I think sanding them increases the brightness, and my trial pair were sanded. thin xps pieces I sliced on the bandsaw were extremely airy. You naturally want to say the brighter, airy speaker sounds better. But, there's a "bathroom effect", it's like adding a bit of reverb. There was one spot on a classical guitar performance I was using to compare; the non-painted had a distinct "tap", like a fingernail striking the guitar top. It sounded pretty cool, and I didn't get that with the painted. I finally listened with headphones, and it was standard fret noise. So the sanded, non-painted was exaggerating that into a tap, like what might happen when playing in a bathroom with lots of echo. I worried a lot about painting them though, because I noticed in some of the youtube TI copies, guys that were painting were adding tweeters. It's possible that a different exciter might have issues with the 1" xps or with the paint? A sub is one thing, but something has to be really wrong if a DML needs a tweeter.
I got the second Fosi audio TB10A; they have 80~ watt power supplies. So the signal is split off my audio interface and each pair have their own amp. I also have a 6.5" sub with 25w Dayton plate amp. I'm working on a second sub but don't really need it.
A final summary of lessons learned is in order for my fellow DML newbs who are a bit confused given all the incomplete and conflicting info out there.
I started with the coin exciters, and especially with sub support, you can get them sounding pretty darn good with cardboard or foam. I toyed with the idea of making some bookshelf sized speakers out of the coins but scraped it. The coins produce incredible HF. But they were killing my ears, I'd feel sea sick after listening for a half hour and ears would ring the next day. With the larger speakers I've had no issues, even the night I set them up in front of my recliner and blasted them for a couple hours (relatively, peaking around 82 db), I had no issues (last pic; I didn't have matching amps at the time so didn't go too far).
Lessons learned on the big panels. See pic 3; the frame. That's the number 1 missing component from every youtube video copying tech ingredients. For acoustic music, they are truly full range. The night I had them set up (last pic), the first hour or so had no sub support, and the bass sounded great. That's entirely the frame. I discovered it by accident. The veterans on the main thread know about it, but it wasn't discussed during the time I was experimenting. I had build a frame for a coin speaker, hoping for a "tight drum" effect and it didn't do anything. I didn't hurt the sound though, so I built a frame for a junker foam piece, to make sure it didn't mess up the sound. At that point, a frame would make it possible to have a normal rigid speaker that can be mounted and utilized easier than hanging by a wire. When I tested it with a deep cello, I about jumped out of my seat. I grabbed my phone with the free db app and sure enough, it was lighting up below 80 hz where its non-framed partner did nothing. It was like discovering penicillin. So when people following tech ingredients talk about requiring a sub or getting a crossover at 150hz; not true at all. They can stand on their own. Once you get into rock/pop that uses deep electronic drums, sub becomes necessary. Fast metal doesn't seem to work very well even with a sub, but part of the issue is that recording quality makes a big difference, so no verdict. Tool, for instance, sounds great, even without the sub.
My advice is to get the foamular panels, place the exciter at the 2/5 - 2/5 point or in the center if you want, you can hold the exciter to the foam and move it around and see what sounds best for you and then stick it. Don't sand or round corners or any of that stuff yet. See what it sounds like no frills. Then add a frame to one and compare. At that point, IMO, the battle is 90%+ over.
Not much more to say besides get a big exciter, good adhesion, and attach a frame. But if any one other thing is worth mentioning it is the paint. How does the paint affect the sound? I layered the liquitex on my panels pretty heavy, and I think they sound perfect. I did pretty extensive comparisons between a painted vs. non-painted panel before committing. The differences weren't so dramatic (not like the frame) that I could say for sure the paint made a difference. Slight mechanical differences in the exciters, slight placement differences could also explain the difference. I cautiously want to say that the paint made them sound better. I think it dulls them slightly. DMLs are bright and airy, and I think sanding them increases the brightness, and my trial pair were sanded. thin xps pieces I sliced on the bandsaw were extremely airy. You naturally want to say the brighter, airy speaker sounds better. But, there's a "bathroom effect", it's like adding a bit of reverb. There was one spot on a classical guitar performance I was using to compare; the non-painted had a distinct "tap", like a fingernail striking the guitar top. It sounded pretty cool, and I didn't get that with the painted. I finally listened with headphones, and it was standard fret noise. So the sanded, non-painted was exaggerating that into a tap, like what might happen when playing in a bathroom with lots of echo. I worried a lot about painting them though, because I noticed in some of the youtube TI copies, guys that were painting were adding tweeters. It's possible that a different exciter might have issues with the 1" xps or with the paint? A sub is one thing, but something has to be really wrong if a DML needs a tweeter.
Attachments
DML -- the undiscovered country.
Going forward...what's the next thing?
If you're going with foam panels, and probably foamular xps per all the tutorials out there, the considerations in order are 1) large of exciter as possible, 2) good adhesion, 3) FRAME, and 4?
The strongest contender for slot four is something NOBODY talks about, and I mean not just the Tech Ingredients offshoots, but not even on the main thread here does it get discussed nor on any archived threads out there. I've brought it up and no comments. I saw it brought up by a less frequent veteran, and no comments. I've never seen pics that indicate anybody has gone there.
In the minimal documentation Dayton provides for their exciters, they show frequency response, and claim their test is a 1/2 12'x 12' piece of foam in an infinite baffle setup. Did they mean open baffle? If not, then what? This lesser-posting vet mentioned on the main thread that the best way to deploy DML panels is directly to wall and open the wall (presumably with solid insulation), to absorb the waves from the back. And so down the road a bit, once I get caught up with other projects, I'm going to build a 3/4" wood enclosure for a 2x2' panel and fill with insulation. If it sounds significantly better than what I have, then it's a game changer in a bad way, as a main benefit of DML is large panels that are featherweight.
Going forward...what's the next thing?
If you're going with foam panels, and probably foamular xps per all the tutorials out there, the considerations in order are 1) large of exciter as possible, 2) good adhesion, 3) FRAME, and 4?
The strongest contender for slot four is something NOBODY talks about, and I mean not just the Tech Ingredients offshoots, but not even on the main thread here does it get discussed nor on any archived threads out there. I've brought it up and no comments. I saw it brought up by a less frequent veteran, and no comments. I've never seen pics that indicate anybody has gone there.
In the minimal documentation Dayton provides for their exciters, they show frequency response, and claim their test is a 1/2 12'x 12' piece of foam in an infinite baffle setup. Did they mean open baffle? If not, then what? This lesser-posting vet mentioned on the main thread that the best way to deploy DML panels is directly to wall and open the wall (presumably with solid insulation), to absorb the waves from the back. And so down the road a bit, once I get caught up with other projects, I'm going to build a 3/4" wood enclosure for a 2x2' panel and fill with insulation. If it sounds significantly better than what I have, then it's a game changer in a bad way, as a main benefit of DML is large panels that are featherweight.
Jmproject.
I don't know if you have seen my videos on YouTube, but I have started to record and upload some of my various panels ,large and small,heavy and light,to video.
As all my recordings are hard to find on the very large thread.
They are all cheap to make and easy to build, if anyone wants to frame any of them ,they can.
This recording is of the 5mm xps with epoxy coating on the left, it is a little too large for this thickness panel , and a hd eps on the right , this panel has been through a lot of experimentation ,not all good , too much paint and a not too successful hole in the middle.
But it still sounds good , I think.
By the way the hole in the magnet is usually there for coil coo!ing, it is a vent, but I guess that it you are not over driving the exciter ,then there should be no problem.
I usually drill a hole in the spline if rigidly mounting to the spine of as you can see in my canvas panels video, I use Dobbs of filler or Evo-stik to fill the gap and leave some space for the exciter to breath.
As usual use headphones to listen to the video for best ,being there sound.I
My 10watt exciters can get down to 40hz on heavier panels but power is restricted.
My panels were made using my ears only, but is is good if the response happens to be good too 😁
Steve.
I don't know if you have seen my videos on YouTube, but I have started to record and upload some of my various panels ,large and small,heavy and light,to video.
As all my recordings are hard to find on the very large thread.
They are all cheap to make and easy to build, if anyone wants to frame any of them ,they can.
This recording is of the 5mm xps with epoxy coating on the left, it is a little too large for this thickness panel , and a hd eps on the right , this panel has been through a lot of experimentation ,not all good , too much paint and a not too successful hole in the middle.
But it still sounds good , I think.
By the way the hole in the magnet is usually there for coil coo!ing, it is a vent, but I guess that it you are not over driving the exciter ,then there should be no problem.
I usually drill a hole in the spline if rigidly mounting to the spine of as you can see in my canvas panels video, I use Dobbs of filler or Evo-stik to fill the gap and leave some space for the exciter to breath.
As usual use headphones to listen to the video for best ,being there sound.I
My 10watt exciters can get down to 40hz on heavier panels but power is restricted.
My panels were made using my ears only, but is is good if the response happens to be good too 😁
Steve.
Thanks for stopping by Spedge. I actually do know about your videos and I'm a subscriber. I hadn't seen this one, I've been out of the audio loop the last few days so I'll need to catch up. The hole is definitely a new one -- I've noticed panels are pretty resilient, gouges and cuts don't affect a whole lot.
I have noticed you tend not to use frames. Wonder why that is, in my far more limited experimenting the difference was pretty big. It did dull the highs a little but a lot of that was the bathroom effect anyway, and the bass enhancement was what really propelled me into high gear to finish mine. I also plan to get some test videos up -- inching towards that goal. I want to test against some floor speakers and they are heavy, and some other things.
Have you ever seen anyone compare DMLs to magepans or other panels?
I have noticed you tend not to use frames. Wonder why that is, in my far more limited experimenting the difference was pretty big. It did dull the highs a little but a lot of that was the bathroom effect anyway, and the bass enhancement was what really propelled me into high gear to finish mine. I also plan to get some test videos up -- inching towards that goal. I want to test against some floor speakers and they are heavy, and some other things.
Have you ever seen anyone compare DMLs to magepans or other panels?
I like the idea of this being the low I-Q version of the other forum, that's right up my street 😁
It is not difficult to build great sounding panels once you understand what sounds good and what sounds not so good.
You don't need high tech for this.
Even my very small panels have a half decent low frequency resonance down to 40 hz.
But I do not use any of my panels this low with normal listening, so tuning for added low frequencies is not necessary for me.
In my proplex video I showed that I used weights to increase the low frequency of the square fluted panel to match the proplex panel.
I mentioned this in the comments , as I forgot to say why they were there😕
I watched your posting of tech ingredients again and was very interested in what he had to say about weights, he does sometimes throw out the baby with the pram , but I suppose he does have a short time to finish his projects.
Using all those panels to blend the responses , but it obviously works, if you have the room, maybe better for PA work.
Looking at the video I did start to think he might have made a better and easier job by turning the stud wall behind into the speaker 😁 which I have found can sound pretty good.
good luck with your forum.
Steve.
It is not difficult to build great sounding panels once you understand what sounds good and what sounds not so good.
You don't need high tech for this.
Even my very small panels have a half decent low frequency resonance down to 40 hz.
But I do not use any of my panels this low with normal listening, so tuning for added low frequencies is not necessary for me.
In my proplex video I showed that I used weights to increase the low frequency of the square fluted panel to match the proplex panel.
I mentioned this in the comments , as I forgot to say why they were there😕
I watched your posting of tech ingredients again and was very interested in what he had to say about weights, he does sometimes throw out the baby with the pram , but I suppose he does have a short time to finish his projects.
Using all those panels to blend the responses , but it obviously works, if you have the room, maybe better for PA work.
Looking at the video I did start to think he might have made a better and easier job by turning the stud wall behind into the speaker 😁 which I have found can sound pretty good.
good luck with your forum.
Steve.
In answer to your question on magepans , I have heard them many times at audio shows .
They suffer from the same problems as ordinary box speakers but probably more so.
It is that straight line which runs down the centre of the room, the so called sweet spot.
At the last show I went into a room for a demonstration of very , very expensive cables about twice the price of my car for a set, or was it one ?
They were using large magepans to demonstrate.
I was sat to the right in this demonstration , so I could not hear the left magepan speaker.
Some people were saying they could hear the soundfield change and spacious sound stage alter.
All I could hear was one half of the music in mono, so sat there very bored, not being able to get out without moving a lot of people.
When going to shows with friends we are always jostling to get the centre sweet spot as moving one seat to the left or right looses everything.
After listening to dml panels for the last 15 years ,which have a sound stage depth no matter where you stand or sit , and that is To the very side or behind the panels as well.
This makes it very hard for me to listen to any speaker that just beams in a straight line. Even if I think the speaker sound ok, I find it tiring to To sit with my head in a fixed position.
Nowadays I also find that the sound of magepans and electrostatic panels have a rather boxy sound.
I put this down(rightly or wrongly) to the amount of magnets and protective meshing used which covers most of the surface.
These are only two of the differences I can hear with when listening to normal speakers.
Sorry, This answer is long enough.
Steve.
They suffer from the same problems as ordinary box speakers but probably more so.
It is that straight line which runs down the centre of the room, the so called sweet spot.
At the last show I went into a room for a demonstration of very , very expensive cables about twice the price of my car for a set, or was it one ?
They were using large magepans to demonstrate.
I was sat to the right in this demonstration , so I could not hear the left magepan speaker.
Some people were saying they could hear the soundfield change and spacious sound stage alter.
All I could hear was one half of the music in mono, so sat there very bored, not being able to get out without moving a lot of people.
When going to shows with friends we are always jostling to get the centre sweet spot as moving one seat to the left or right looses everything.
After listening to dml panels for the last 15 years ,which have a sound stage depth no matter where you stand or sit , and that is To the very side or behind the panels as well.
This makes it very hard for me to listen to any speaker that just beams in a straight line. Even if I think the speaker sound ok, I find it tiring to To sit with my head in a fixed position.
Nowadays I also find that the sound of magepans and electrostatic panels have a rather boxy sound.
I put this down(rightly or wrongly) to the amount of magnets and protective meshing used which covers most of the surface.
These are only two of the differences I can hear with when listening to normal speakers.
Sorry, This answer is long enough.
Steve.
That's helpful on magnepans, it's not surprising given the YouTube videos I've watched about them, and the beaming complaint is typical. I've never been to an audio show, I should really try it some time. But I had not yet seen a specific comparison to DML's so that's a good start.
What is the secret for getting base out of smaller speakers? How small have you made a speaker and still got good bass?
I did make some small speakers with the 6w coins, and they definitely didn't have bass. They sounded pretty good with a sub, I mean, the highs and clarity are extraordinary, but, I realized it was very hard on my ears. short sessions would leave me ringing, whereas with my present build, I can listen for hours at moderate level and it's all good.
What is the secret for getting base out of smaller speakers? How small have you made a speaker and still got good bass?
I did make some small speakers with the 6w coins, and they definitely didn't have bass. They sounded pretty good with a sub, I mean, the highs and clarity are extraordinary, but, I realized it was very hard on my ears. short sessions would leave me ringing, whereas with my present build, I can listen for hours at moderate level and it's all good.
My comments about beaming was not just magnepans , but all cone and tweeter speakers as well.
I am personally not interested in using panels down to sub frequencies.
The only panel I have used so far that might be possible to play down to 40hz with no problems is the proplex round flueted panel.
But I have not used it with a high power exciter.
You also really need to be able to measure your panels response, to see if there are any nasty peaks ,which can hurt sometimes.
It is difficult to generalise about panel responses as different panels react differently, plus how you implement them.
Steve.
I am personally not interested in using panels down to sub frequencies.
The only panel I have used so far that might be possible to play down to 40hz with no problems is the proplex round flueted panel.
But I have not used it with a high power exciter.
You also really need to be able to measure your panels response, to see if there are any nasty peaks ,which can hurt sometimes.
It is difficult to generalise about panel responses as different panels react differently, plus how you implement them.
Steve.
Throwing up an update for the Annals of DML pioneering. Like many of my hobbies, I work at things for a while and then abruptly stop everything and go do something else. I think in this case where I ran into the wall was the fun stuff was worked out, and lots of tedious tasks remained that I just couldn't deal with at the time. Months later, and I still had only used my panels in the forward (in room, off wall) position, but when I saw Dune was on Netflix, I found the motivation to finish the arduous task of fixing banana clips to all the speaker cables (it's a lot of connections) for the multiple positions I use them in. Also built little feet for the speakers.
I may one day build some walnut feet or something but for now, it works. Sounded great for the movie, about what I expected. 2.0 but with DML the sound is bigger, and so save the best mastered stuff out there I don't think I'm missing much.
I ended up with one Fosi audio 50x2w per panel, or rather, one drives the lower speakers and the other the uppers. The lower routes through a 25w plate amp to the 6.5 sub I built and a 100w Dayton chassis for the 8" sub.
After several months of listening, I'm still very happy with it. Of course, you always want more and I'm considering some sub upgrades even though for the 1-car garage listening space what I have is sufficient. It can get really loud in here. But the panels are have some headroom for more volume, and to keep the bass proportional, if I really was going to blast it, would need some more sub power.
A few comments on the DML speakers themselves, after 6 months, they've held up fine. All exciters are doing their share and not prying themselves away from the foam boards -- I just used Titebond 2 and that seems to have been good enough. I used All Dayton thrusters. The top panels are the permanent thrusters, and bottoms have the bases the exciter attaches to.
After months of listening, I still cant decide which style I like better. The units with bases sound richer but someone might think they are muddy. The others are brighter; some might think too transparent. So If I built them again, I'd do it the same and take the benefits of both worlds. I do like having the "richer" unites paired with the 6.5" high Q sub. Just those together are great for acoustic music and vocals. The small sub helps fill in the 80-100k range much better than the mammoth 8" sub for the DMLs. with the DML frames, some kinds of instrumentals barely need subs. Classical guitar can sound great without a sub with the "richer" units. Once you throw on Jesse Cook with all the toms, well, then you need to big sub.
I also listen to a lot of synthwave and I think these are great for that, especially with the bigger sub. I've even used them for studio monitors and I think they are better than the monitors I used in the past (they weren't high end or anything). Generally, the DMLs can hang on the wall out of the way and they're great near-field, or filling the space at high volume. And then just once in a while I would deploy them to one of the other 2 positions. With the clips, that's much faster now.
I may one day build some walnut feet or something but for now, it works. Sounded great for the movie, about what I expected. 2.0 but with DML the sound is bigger, and so save the best mastered stuff out there I don't think I'm missing much.
I ended up with one Fosi audio 50x2w per panel, or rather, one drives the lower speakers and the other the uppers. The lower routes through a 25w plate amp to the 6.5 sub I built and a 100w Dayton chassis for the 8" sub.
After several months of listening, I'm still very happy with it. Of course, you always want more and I'm considering some sub upgrades even though for the 1-car garage listening space what I have is sufficient. It can get really loud in here. But the panels are have some headroom for more volume, and to keep the bass proportional, if I really was going to blast it, would need some more sub power.
A few comments on the DML speakers themselves, after 6 months, they've held up fine. All exciters are doing their share and not prying themselves away from the foam boards -- I just used Titebond 2 and that seems to have been good enough. I used All Dayton thrusters. The top panels are the permanent thrusters, and bottoms have the bases the exciter attaches to.
After months of listening, I still cant decide which style I like better. The units with bases sound richer but someone might think they are muddy. The others are brighter; some might think too transparent. So If I built them again, I'd do it the same and take the benefits of both worlds. I do like having the "richer" unites paired with the 6.5" high Q sub. Just those together are great for acoustic music and vocals. The small sub helps fill in the 80-100k range much better than the mammoth 8" sub for the DMLs. with the DML frames, some kinds of instrumentals barely need subs. Classical guitar can sound great without a sub with the "richer" units. Once you throw on Jesse Cook with all the toms, well, then you need to big sub.
I also listen to a lot of synthwave and I think these are great for that, especially with the bigger sub. I've even used them for studio monitors and I think they are better than the monitors I used in the past (they weren't high end or anything). Generally, the DMLs can hang on the wall out of the way and they're great near-field, or filling the space at high volume. And then just once in a while I would deploy them to one of the other 2 positions. With the clips, that's much faster now.
I finally found the strength to haul some of my old (and unused in 15 years) audio gear into the shop for a showdown with the panels. It's one thing to be blown away by how good a 20$ device glued to a piece of insulation foam can sound, and another to say it's good as compared to a real speaker. I tried this earlier in the year but was hampered by so many "little" problems that I ended up putting it all back. This time it worked out, with just barely enough cabling to have everything set up in a test where I can A/B the competing chains.
Each panel is 24" square XPS mounted to frame with a Dayton thruster; top and bottom driven by separate Fosi Audio class D amps. To make it fair as possible, leaving the larger sub on the bench and using the little guy with the 6.5" Tang Band driver, and I do have an active crossover on that chain.
Squaring off is my Denon AVR-1082 receiver with 2 Energy Connoisseur c5 speakers. Once upon a time there was this place called Good Guys where you could go to buy audio gear and listen before you purchase. My HT application had some height constraints for the towers, but compared to all the other options at around that height, especially the Klipsch they were always pushing, these were by far my favorite. Definitely fun to reconnect them and hear what they sound like after all of these years collecting dust.
I've been listening to all kinds of music today while turning the A/B switch back and forth. Bottom line is I'm not sure there is a clear winner. On the one hand, it's impressive the DMLs can even compete, but the c5s, good as they sound to me, aren't 10,000$ speakers. And so even if I were to say the panels win overall, it's not by such a wide margin that dropping a few thou on a higher end conventional speaker wouldn't fix that problem for good. I do plan on doing further DML builds but it's hard for me to imagine gains that would compete with true high-end gear.
Review in next post.
Each panel is 24" square XPS mounted to frame with a Dayton thruster; top and bottom driven by separate Fosi Audio class D amps. To make it fair as possible, leaving the larger sub on the bench and using the little guy with the 6.5" Tang Band driver, and I do have an active crossover on that chain.
Squaring off is my Denon AVR-1082 receiver with 2 Energy Connoisseur c5 speakers. Once upon a time there was this place called Good Guys where you could go to buy audio gear and listen before you purchase. My HT application had some height constraints for the towers, but compared to all the other options at around that height, especially the Klipsch they were always pushing, these were by far my favorite. Definitely fun to reconnect them and hear what they sound like after all of these years collecting dust.
I've been listening to all kinds of music today while turning the A/B switch back and forth. Bottom line is I'm not sure there is a clear winner. On the one hand, it's impressive the DMLs can even compete, but the c5s, good as they sound to me, aren't 10,000$ speakers. And so even if I were to say the panels win overall, it's not by such a wide margin that dropping a few thou on a higher end conventional speaker wouldn't fix that problem for good. I do plan on doing further DML builds but it's hard for me to imagine gains that would compete with true high-end gear.
Review in next post.
I'd say the most important test is with symphony orchestra. There's lots of reasons why symphony music makes for ideal benchmarking IMO, but most important for this test is the lack of reliance on the sub. Even with big crescendos the sub is barely moving.
As I get used to the sound of the c5s and then switch to the panels, my negative reaction is that the panels sound flat and the c5s rich and warm. As I get used to the panels and then switch to the c5s, my negative reaction is that it sounds like a field of sound has just been scrunched into a box.
I think it's hard to compare. As an analogy, when I got new glasses ~ 2000, glasses with small lenses were becoming popular and the guy told me when I first put them on it's going to take a while to get used to them, but eventually your brain figures it out. He was right, the world was totally distorted for the next half hour or so, and then everything seemed normal.
There were times when I went to the A/B switch and moved it the wrong way because I thought it was on the other pair.
The c5's are more detailed. Faint instruments jump out that I have to listen for on the panels. The downside is that sometimes the highs on the c5s get harsh. I wasn't expecting that. Now, I'm using thrusters, but the seasoned DML guys use exciters that are supposedly more detailed. I am going to do a build with those in the coming weeks.
With a symphony, where the panels seem to shine is that in a crescendo, it gets bigger not just louder. The panels definitely feel like they have more breathing room.
Going to the opposite end of the music spectrum to electronic music; techno, synthwave, ambient, basically all of it sounds better on the panels. Granted, the sub has far more bass capability than the c5s, and that's part of it, but I do turn it down and try to mentally compensate for that. Electronic music generally likes to sound huge and the panels deliver huge just fine if it's a good recording.
Jazz and Straits / Floyd type rock is again a close call. Vocals on the C5 sound "breathy" while more natural on the panels. I think a lot of people would like the C5s better for some vocals. The c5s sound rich and with presence, while the panels sound relaxed and with more distance between listener and instruments. Heavier rock generally sounds better on the c5s, but I think some of that is the panels are pretty revealing, For Metallica, the older stuff sounds like it was recorded in a tin can. I tried a couple tracks off of Reload (CD), and it was a much closer competition. I think for distorted guitars the C5s still win. For acoustic guitar and steel guitar, and especially if there's reverb, the panels win.
Going to do some more listening tomorrow and then pack out all this heavy stuff.
As I get used to the sound of the c5s and then switch to the panels, my negative reaction is that the panels sound flat and the c5s rich and warm. As I get used to the panels and then switch to the c5s, my negative reaction is that it sounds like a field of sound has just been scrunched into a box.
I think it's hard to compare. As an analogy, when I got new glasses ~ 2000, glasses with small lenses were becoming popular and the guy told me when I first put them on it's going to take a while to get used to them, but eventually your brain figures it out. He was right, the world was totally distorted for the next half hour or so, and then everything seemed normal.
There were times when I went to the A/B switch and moved it the wrong way because I thought it was on the other pair.
The c5's are more detailed. Faint instruments jump out that I have to listen for on the panels. The downside is that sometimes the highs on the c5s get harsh. I wasn't expecting that. Now, I'm using thrusters, but the seasoned DML guys use exciters that are supposedly more detailed. I am going to do a build with those in the coming weeks.
With a symphony, where the panels seem to shine is that in a crescendo, it gets bigger not just louder. The panels definitely feel like they have more breathing room.
Going to the opposite end of the music spectrum to electronic music; techno, synthwave, ambient, basically all of it sounds better on the panels. Granted, the sub has far more bass capability than the c5s, and that's part of it, but I do turn it down and try to mentally compensate for that. Electronic music generally likes to sound huge and the panels deliver huge just fine if it's a good recording.
Jazz and Straits / Floyd type rock is again a close call. Vocals on the C5 sound "breathy" while more natural on the panels. I think a lot of people would like the C5s better for some vocals. The c5s sound rich and with presence, while the panels sound relaxed and with more distance between listener and instruments. Heavier rock generally sounds better on the c5s, but I think some of that is the panels are pretty revealing, For Metallica, the older stuff sounds like it was recorded in a tin can. I tried a couple tracks off of Reload (CD), and it was a much closer competition. I think for distorted guitars the C5s still win. For acoustic guitar and steel guitar, and especially if there's reverb, the panels win.
Going to do some more listening tomorrow and then pack out all this heavy stuff.
Did some more testing. I think the competition is officially over; the panels win hands down. Take back everything I said about the advantages the c5 had. Bringing those c5s into the shop has been the single most important exercise to date for advancing my DML sound as it's given me a baseline, something I know sounds good, and now what are the differences; what's better, what's worse?
More later on the secret weapon as I've got to do some other stuff but wow, now I have to find a way to hear some high end speakers to find the next benchmark.
More later on the secret weapon as I've got to do some other stuff but wow, now I have to find a way to hear some high end speakers to find the next benchmark.