Plausable deniability? Oh please!
"I would be very interested in knowing the details of that."
I would be even more interested in how you kept from hearing about it. While were at lets play guess the moderator for some of the high points in last year:
1. Copy a design of a well known amp right down to similar cosmetics and pass it off as something new and the result of serious effort and research. But, only after mining the forum for endless help and advice while saying he never read anything of use to him by the guy trying to help him from keeping it from frying.
2. Selling an items for $150 and claiming to not really making any money at it and did it to provide a service for members of the forum. Responding to the complaint that not all the holes were drilled (which was pretty sloppy for something that cost $150) with the response: It wouldn't be a DIY product if the customer didn't have to drill some the holes himself.
3. Starting a thread to gather facts about power supply design, gathering enough information to design a knockoff version with enough stuffing variations for the voltage references to call it different, but not different enough to not attempt to cash in on the original designers name and reputation. If fact going so far as to include his name in the documentation and a link to his website. Of course the designer in question was so thrilled by this that he will no longer post on the forum much to many members extreme displeasure.
This is the tip of the iceberg but why waste time rehashing the problems that long time members know about but the moderators have done nothing about despite repeated request . Why expect any thing to change at this point? We have been down this path dozens of times and nothing ever comes of it.
"I would be very interested in knowing the details of that."
I would be even more interested in how you kept from hearing about it. While were at lets play guess the moderator for some of the high points in last year:
1. Copy a design of a well known amp right down to similar cosmetics and pass it off as something new and the result of serious effort and research. But, only after mining the forum for endless help and advice while saying he never read anything of use to him by the guy trying to help him from keeping it from frying.
2. Selling an items for $150 and claiming to not really making any money at it and did it to provide a service for members of the forum. Responding to the complaint that not all the holes were drilled (which was pretty sloppy for something that cost $150) with the response: It wouldn't be a DIY product if the customer didn't have to drill some the holes himself.
3. Starting a thread to gather facts about power supply design, gathering enough information to design a knockoff version with enough stuffing variations for the voltage references to call it different, but not different enough to not attempt to cash in on the original designers name and reputation. If fact going so far as to include his name in the documentation and a link to his website. Of course the designer in question was so thrilled by this that he will no longer post on the forum much to many members extreme displeasure.
This is the tip of the iceberg but why waste time rehashing the problems that long time members know about but the moderators have done nothing about despite repeated request . Why expect any thing to change at this point? We have been down this path dozens of times and nothing ever comes of it.
The line is hard to draw...........I think PD is coming from the point of having done a lot of tweaking of an existing idea, then realising a commercial opportunity may exist. And I would not want to stamp on that, companies supporting DIY should be encouraged, as should entrepreneurship. However, the potential infringements of patent should be examined.
I think the solution is that diyaudio moderators should not have any commercial interests that may conflict with their role. It is a bit like having a company director who buys services and products from his own companies or the politician who spends public money on companies with close ties.
My 2c
I think the solution is that diyaudio moderators should not have any commercial interests that may conflict with their role. It is a bit like having a company director who buys services and products from his own companies or the politician who spends public money on companies with close ties.
My 2c
Re: Plausable deniability? Oh please!
Actually the 1st i heard about that was Jocko's post... your 1st 2 points have nothing to do with this, since the product you question has no circuit boards, and in the 3rd there was no existing board to "photocopy".
1/ As to Peter's Z1 amp, which was a fully documented DIY design here before he was pushed to make them for commercial sale, he has never prommoted that here. And it seems pretty clear that althou he started out with Thorsten's design, he ended up with something of his own. The chassis design is, as PD admits, perhaps too close to the 47 labs design to keep him from getting some flack for lack of creativity, but one just needs to follow the original thread to see how that came to be.
He has continued to make this project open source despite the commercialization of it. This has been a great contribution to the goal that Thorsten wished to achieve when he 1st threw the idea & the circuit out into the public domain ... certainly a magnitude greater than the Shunt Passive Pre which has been your sole fully realized contribution.
2/You can do the math on his chassis offer and it is pretty clear that he came out on the negative end financially on that (and if you look at the people who ended up with a chassis, they are pretty happy)
3/ This basic design was published in Ap Notes & magazine articles to encourage its development & to sell chips for the author's employer. Nothing wrong there. Everyone uses the authors name to describe this circuit and its derivatives, sort of like Klennex, or a Xerox.
dave
MalichiConstant said:
Actually the 1st i heard about that was Jocko's post... your 1st 2 points have nothing to do with this, since the product you question has no circuit boards, and in the 3rd there was no existing board to "photocopy".
1/ As to Peter's Z1 amp, which was a fully documented DIY design here before he was pushed to make them for commercial sale, he has never prommoted that here. And it seems pretty clear that althou he started out with Thorsten's design, he ended up with something of his own. The chassis design is, as PD admits, perhaps too close to the 47 labs design to keep him from getting some flack for lack of creativity, but one just needs to follow the original thread to see how that came to be.
He has continued to make this project open source despite the commercialization of it. This has been a great contribution to the goal that Thorsten wished to achieve when he 1st threw the idea & the circuit out into the public domain ... certainly a magnitude greater than the Shunt Passive Pre which has been your sole fully realized contribution.
2/You can do the math on his chassis offer and it is pretty clear that he came out on the negative end financially on that (and if you look at the people who ended up with a chassis, they are pretty happy)
3/ This basic design was published in Ap Notes & magazine articles to encourage its development & to sell chips for the author's employer. Nothing wrong there. Everyone uses the authors name to describe this circuit and its derivatives, sort of like Klennex, or a Xerox.
dave
Well, it's been close to 2 years since I came up with AMP-1 design. It indeed created some controversy initially (do search on "controversy" thread here) and the issue was also covered on AA. In the end, 47Labs didn't take any offence and there is no hard feelings between two companies. Yoshi and Junji visited AZ room at CES this year, and they were quite impressed with the amps, but especially with a preamp.
Why Fred can't get over it is beyond my understanding, I suspect the only explanation is envy.
As to the chassis, I will only say that a deal like that will not be repeated, the group purchase is over and only those who bought it, can say if they really missed those holes. I tried to keep cost down, and having a choice between drilling the holes, or making silksreening, I decided on the latter.
Why Fred can't get over it is beyond my understanding, I suspect the only explanation is envy.
As to the chassis, I will only say that a deal like that will not be repeated, the group purchase is over and only those who bought it, can say if they really missed those holes. I tried to keep cost down, and having a choice between drilling the holes, or making silksreening, I decided on the latter.
Have you noticed the quality of the forum (content) lately. It is a far cry from what it used to be and is getting worse.
jam said:
I did a quick search over yours and Fred's posts made lately and I know why.
Zero content, pretty much fun reading them though:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=645130
Who is Malachi Constant?
Malachi Constant explained
Spelling can be tricky, at times...
Rune
Bas Horneman said:
MalichiConstant..... funny name
What does it mean? Could not find it on Google...the first link that came up though was...."The past sometimes returns"
Cheers,
Bas
Malachi Constant explained
Spelling can be tricky, at times...
Rune
jam said:
Just explaining my POV -- the facts as they sift out. I think you think that if you say something long & loud & often enuff it will become true.
Your's (& others) perceived emnity towards PD does nothing to enhance any points you make... it just makes you sound like a bigot.
Well i've continued to contribute, the signal-to-noise hasn't been improved by all noise you've been spewing.
dave
So why do you and your Human Sock Puppets (tm) keep
How many times have you or your HSPs stated that his circuit is
just the Manufacturers circuit? Yet you also are claiming he ripped off 47 labs. He doesn't want your Zobel or Carlos' supply and buffer. why are you complaining then? To say that the case is a profit making venture is just silly if you actually think about the effort involved. However, I agree no one wants personality cults on the forum- people that have blind followers and that have a greater presence then they deserve for there contributions or knowlege or helpfulness. Of course you are always desperatly trying to gain sock recruits...... If you were reasonable about your observations reggarding people like Peter, then I would be more receptive- I don't defend all his quirks and ambitions, but It's so clear that you will never be satisfied with any moderators efforts, or anyone that becomes appreciated on the forum unless they are an EE rockstar.. I guess it is jealousy as someone mentioned.
Speaking of which- there are various ways to become larger than life on the forum- contribute lots of time suggesting ideas and helping people, putting in lots of time on things such as group buys that people other than yourself don't seem to appreciate, or... being a pain in the butt that people have to deal with..I guess you are desparately trying the third path...
Of course the power supply you are referring to isn't Peter's and had nothing to do with him, so lets's not blame him for that....
I have to admit, you made me think about that a bit. The mod who starten the thread and is making the boards DOES seem to be making a profit...
As to JAM, yes he seems to rip off copyrighted cartoons (IP) constantly and probably has taxed the storage of this forum more than anyone with his graphic postings. On the other hand, he DID send me the Aleph X boards he promised along with a very pleasant CD for winning a contest he proposed- I can't complain about that!!
Finally - I thought you were "out of here" yet you seem to be unable to stay away..Were you lying? a lot of us don't miss you.
Variac said:
No ... it was a big money sink that one. Hardly anyone got boards.
No one seems to complain about the group buys that were such hits that they did generate excess cash (Aleph X boards were among those IIRC). Excess cash in these was donated back to participants or to fund diyAudio operation.
dave
Well, Dave......
Canadian Dave, not New Zealand Dave. But "g-day" to him anyway.
Someone in power knew of the Xeroxed PCB, because when the guy who really did create it complained, the offending post was pulled.
I guess that whoever did it forgot to tell the rest of the Mod Squad about it.
Yeah.....I know.......he will most likey claim that it was purely coincidence that someone in his country bought that PCB shortly before he posted his.........and it is pure coincidence that the mystery trace that was on the board for the very purpose of catching thieves just happened to make it onto his "patented" PCB design. And he agreed to allow to have it pulled just to keep the peace.
Too bad some of us ain't buying that, if that is what he is selling.
BTW......how can you patent a PCB??? Copyright, yes. Patent.....I think not.
Ah...but is not PCB layout an art form? I think so...but not to the extent that someone here thinks that he can lay out a PCB without knowing the schematic. Or that his kid can do a better job than some of us.
Now, folks........that is comedy. And you can't get comedy that good just any ol' place. Which is one of the few reasons that I still read this place.
As for the guy who whines about someone who sells more PCBs than he does.....after he runs off the guy whose moniker is associated with that design..........you have already heard all about it and the fallibility of the DIY "radar screen".
Jocko
Canadian Dave, not New Zealand Dave. But "g-day" to him anyway.
Someone in power knew of the Xeroxed PCB, because when the guy who really did create it complained, the offending post was pulled.
I guess that whoever did it forgot to tell the rest of the Mod Squad about it.
Yeah.....I know.......he will most likey claim that it was purely coincidence that someone in his country bought that PCB shortly before he posted his.........and it is pure coincidence that the mystery trace that was on the board for the very purpose of catching thieves just happened to make it onto his "patented" PCB design. And he agreed to allow to have it pulled just to keep the peace.
Too bad some of us ain't buying that, if that is what he is selling.
BTW......how can you patent a PCB??? Copyright, yes. Patent.....I think not.
Ah...but is not PCB layout an art form? I think so...but not to the extent that someone here thinks that he can lay out a PCB without knowing the schematic. Or that his kid can do a better job than some of us.
Now, folks........that is comedy. And you can't get comedy that good just any ol' place. Which is one of the few reasons that I still read this place.
As for the guy who whines about someone who sells more PCBs than he does.....after he runs off the guy whose moniker is associated with that design..........you have already heard all about it and the fallibility of the DIY "radar screen".
Jocko
Funding DIY?????
So, Dave.........you have confirmed something that Bas stated the last time we had this food fight:
A lot of guys picked to be mods are the guys who are the ones behind a lot of these group buys.
Why make them moderators?????? You wouldn't trust them to plow the proceeds back if they weren't? The rest of us aren't good eonough to be trusted doing all the group buys? But you have no problem selling us stuff.
Can't you see why this system stinks?????? And how it leads to distrust???
With all the other problems of piracy, why should we feel comfortable when mods are the guys behind the group buys?
You need to plainly state......IN BIG BOLD LETTERS.....where everyone can see it:
"DIY is about making money. The moderators have been assigned the task of organising group buys for the express purpose of funding DIY They are also empowered to use any form of commerce to keep DIY afloat."
It sure seems that way.
Jocko
So, Dave.........you have confirmed something that Bas stated the last time we had this food fight:
A lot of guys picked to be mods are the guys who are the ones behind a lot of these group buys.
Why make them moderators?????? You wouldn't trust them to plow the proceeds back if they weren't? The rest of us aren't good eonough to be trusted doing all the group buys? But you have no problem selling us stuff.
Can't you see why this system stinks?????? And how it leads to distrust???
With all the other problems of piracy, why should we feel comfortable when mods are the guys behind the group buys?
You need to plainly state......IN BIG BOLD LETTERS.....where everyone can see it:
"DIY is about making money. The moderators have been assigned the task of organising group buys for the express purpose of funding DIY They are also empowered to use any form of commerce to keep DIY afloat."
It sure seems that way.
Jocko
Questions for the Head Moderator!
Dave,
Before I answer that question I have two simple questions for you,
1) Were you not the person who suggested that Peter Daniel make a commercial venture out of his gainclone?
2) Why does Peter Daniel still have access to the moderators forum, even though he no longer is a moderator?
Something about fairness, favoritism..........
Dave,
Before I answer that question I have two simple questions for you,
1) Were you not the person who suggested that Peter Daniel make a commercial venture out of his gainclone?
2) Why does Peter Daniel still have access to the moderators forum, even though he no longer is a moderator?
Something about fairness, favoritism..........
Do I need to post my "Rutles: All You Need Is Cash" .jpg again?
So we can hear about more wasted bandwidth.
Well, it sure seems that it is all about cash. And that anyone involved in the flow of (potential) revenue can do anything that they damn well please. Most of them are moderators anyway, so who is going to stop them????
Jocko
So we can hear about more wasted bandwidth.
Well, it sure seems that it is all about cash. And that anyone involved in the flow of (potential) revenue can do anything that they damn well please. Most of them are moderators anyway, so who is going to stop them????
Jocko
The rest of us are too lazy to do group buys- Say, why don't you exercise your right to do a group buy- there are lots of projects that need you to organize them. I thought not- you don't wan't to invest the time.... So, what really happens is that there are people that are willing to spend a lot of time DOING stuff -remember It's called DO it yourself Audio. Then when it's time for someone to organize a group buy the same people step up. when it's time to find a moderator- the only people that step up are the DOers..
Selling us stuff? Actually the reason they are selling us stuff is because we want it, we can see that it is fair, and it helps us DO stuff...They aren't forcing us to buy it....
If someone starts giving out advice that is shallow or ignorant then I am pleased when others point that out
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