Osh, that's what I suspect, but I'm considering constructing a pair in such a way that they could be temporarily put together in that way to see if that occurs. If done in a 'temp' fashion, no loss incurred...
'Plug 'n Play', if you will. *L* It's just a hardware choice issue, and a pair of 'termination plates' as opposed to what I've been doing. Since these units (still in progress) will need a 'custom base/termination' anyway, that's not a big issue for me. Just one of those 'what if' scenarios, triggered by what I'm noticing from what I'm experiencing with the drivers I'm running.
Besides, I'm just stubborn enough to do it anyway, just because it'll sound funny when it happens. Cheap amusement with sound. *L*
'Plug 'n Play', if you will. *L* It's just a hardware choice issue, and a pair of 'termination plates' as opposed to what I've been doing. Since these units (still in progress) will need a 'custom base/termination' anyway, that's not a big issue for me. Just one of those 'what if' scenarios, triggered by what I'm noticing from what I'm experiencing with the drivers I'm running.
Besides, I'm just stubborn enough to do it anyway, just because it'll sound funny when it happens. Cheap amusement with sound. *L*
Yes and no. I guess one could call this a "Walsh whizzer".
Not ideal, but I always tamed them down a bit with a coat or two of rubber cement. A few of the larger cones I made had thin strips of foam rubber on the inside. It was easy to over do it with damping material.
I tried using a small (5 inch. diameter) walsh cone handling the high freqs. supported by conventional woofers and, it sounded real nice to me. I think the Walsh cones can really shine in the high freq.
So Jerry, I was glad to see you thinking of trying that approach.
Jerry the design seems like it will cancel with opposite polarity and same pressure wave/origin. The edge damping is very important. There is a difference in how the wash and German physics drivers work from my understanding German physics speakers are more or less only bending wave speakers and the Walsh is less so as the design wasn't really fully bending wave capable which is complicated. Paper is this example paper is not good for bending waves in this configuration which is the primary difference between Walsh and physics paper vs carbon/ Titanium. The speakers cochleus is making are more or less radial cone speakers. Especially with the whizzer part making it obvious. I have a ton of information on all bending wave speakers and the like. Like mbl which is not bending wave. Cheap is relative for a diy project of this kind it is a little pricey They work well but advances are still being made and will not stop being made.
Hey Gary, great minds thinking alike again, right? *L* At least until proven otherwise...
Actually, I've been toying with gluing a shaft vertically in the middle of the cone, and use it to affix an EVA foam disc inside the cone. Apparently that what the Infinity 'cone tweets' had at their larger end. For the longest time I thought they were foam filled...wrong, that would have damped the 'ell out of them. Got the EVA, just need to scare up a suitable shaft from my junk, which is scary enough. *L*
Hey, Mags! Re the 'clone group'...you're in! *L* Now all we need is some snappy slogan and a drinking song... *smirk*
You're probably right about the phase cancellation, but the bases I'm considering for four of the next group I'm gearing up for (6 total, I like to do things in pairs at minimum, but since I'm 'in the grove', so to speak) will allow me to test it without any major fuss. Maybe I'll shoot a vid of it so y'all can have a chuckle at the phase going in and out...
Garys'/Cocleus's speaker is essentially the same as mine, so essentially we've got bending wave units, clones of the GPs'...I'm still game to try a more 'Walshy' variant with a less 'steep' cone, but I'm going to hold out for a bigger diameter voice coil to push it about.
And you won't get an argument from me re damping at the surround. I've noticed that if I apply just the tips of my fingers gently on the surface, the 'character' of the sound changes and seems to lose some 'sibilance'. I tend to like a 'brighter' driver due likely to my ancient f'd up ears, but what occurs is more like inserting an eq into the line.
I need to play with damping more, yes...
(Oh, BTB...no Star Wars clone puns, please...not that I'm a SW fanatic, I just think we can come up with better...*L*)
Actually, I've been toying with gluing a shaft vertically in the middle of the cone, and use it to affix an EVA foam disc inside the cone. Apparently that what the Infinity 'cone tweets' had at their larger end. For the longest time I thought they were foam filled...wrong, that would have damped the 'ell out of them. Got the EVA, just need to scare up a suitable shaft from my junk, which is scary enough. *L*
Hey, Mags! Re the 'clone group'...you're in! *L* Now all we need is some snappy slogan and a drinking song... *smirk*
You're probably right about the phase cancellation, but the bases I'm considering for four of the next group I'm gearing up for (6 total, I like to do things in pairs at minimum, but since I'm 'in the grove', so to speak) will allow me to test it without any major fuss. Maybe I'll shoot a vid of it so y'all can have a chuckle at the phase going in and out...
Garys'/Cocleus's speaker is essentially the same as mine, so essentially we've got bending wave units, clones of the GPs'...I'm still game to try a more 'Walshy' variant with a less 'steep' cone, but I'm going to hold out for a bigger diameter voice coil to push it about.
And you won't get an argument from me re damping at the surround. I've noticed that if I apply just the tips of my fingers gently on the surface, the 'character' of the sound changes and seems to lose some 'sibilance'. I tend to like a 'brighter' driver due likely to my ancient f'd up ears, but what occurs is more like inserting an eq into the line.
I need to play with damping more, yes...
(Oh, BTB...no Star Wars clone puns, please...not that I'm a SW fanatic, I just think we can come up with better...*L*)
My completed Walsh drivers were terminated in foam surrounds. I know the function of cone end termination, L. Walsh makes that a major part of his patent.
The cones I make are the same angle (70') and the same material (0.002" high modulus aluminum foil) as the cones that L. Walsh describes in his patent. I also applied an internal damping material which is also in the patent.
I believe there are improvements that can be made, and even Lincoln Walsh himself gave plenty of latitude for that in his patent.
Making the cones out of some advanced material will not change the device. I've made several cones out of carbon fiber, they sound great, but it's the same device as with aluminum or paper cones (in the spirit of the original patent).
I Will link to the information I have on bending waves. The cone material is what drives bending waves as well as the termination function. The material must be high modulas with low density. The more the material is in inversely increased the more octaves the driver will behave in a bending mode function. This can be figured out with a formula. The steepness is to attenuate this function as the stiffness changes with slope. The shape allows for the dispersion of a range of frequencies. that are made at specific point along the cone. The length of the cone is also important. As it relates to the dipole frequency. There needs to be a some what rigid termination which does not seem to be in some of the pictures. Please correct me if there are terminations in the finished models. The benefits of the bending wave speaker are two they allow for near perfect impulse response as the wight of the cone is almost not relevant. There are closely resistor based speaker functions as opposed to capacitance and inductance. They allow for omni dispersion. All this cannot or hasnt been done to the most of the ability. Generally the voice coil is the only weight to be factored. The termination is very important there are lots of ways to achieve this and is something of great importance to me in my clone. The design must be well done to allow for the full ability of bending waves and thus transient response.
The are a host of upgrades which can be made to the conventional bending wave transducer . Like the walsh driver. With only a clone of the cone and termination there is still quite a bit more to do. Even then I dont know how well the Walsh driver functions. If anything I have said turns out to be mis worded or incorrect please correct me. There is only one function which stops mbl from being bending wave. Anyone got a clue? The patent seems to be super extensive and is the most information filled paper on bending wave speakers.
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My approach to terminal reflection was to fabricate very light yet large cones in order to radiate as much sound energy as possible. This has the added bonus of efficiency. The last carbon fiber cone I made weighed in at less than 8 mg/sq cm, including an internal layer of latex damping.
Some day I would like to make cones out of a material called "graphene paper" which is extremely light, yet very stiff.
Some day I would like to make cones out of a material called "graphene paper" which is extremely light, yet very stiff.
Graphene oxide paper...*whew* I unleashed the google at that and Wow. Neat stuff, 'neat' $ not so much.... It's an tantalizing thought to consider for now, and I agree it'd be worth a shot. Out of my (and I'll assume your) 'price point' for now, until it's gotten down to a less stratospheric cost...makes titanium look like pocket change. *G*
We could always break into a research facility. "What were you trying to steal?"
"Oh, some fancy paper to make some esoteric DIY speakers...we're audiohoics..."
*Long stare* "Take these guys away and chuck 'em into that padded cell we've got...don't want them to hurt themselves..."
(Hope for a judge with a nice system...)
We could always break into a research facility. "What were you trying to steal?"
"Oh, some fancy paper to make some esoteric DIY speakers...we're audiohoics..."
*Long stare* "Take these guys away and chuck 'em into that padded cell we've got...don't want them to hurt themselves..."
(Hope for a judge with a nice system...)
Mags, I'm digesting your post in 'byte-sized' bits, hopefully in order to give a half-tushed reply. Bear with yrs. truly; I'm having to cope with some 'real world' stuff that's gets in the way of all this fun...
That, and I'd really like to get my "How To" pages into your screens for some serious editing. It's flawed, but consider the author.... *G*
Any serious attempts are worth some planning in any case. If I was in a hurry, I'd be there already. *S*
That, and I'd really like to get my "How To" pages into your screens for some serious editing. It's flawed, but consider the author.... *G*
Any serious attempts are worth some planning in any case. If I was in a hurry, I'd be there already. *S*
Submitted for your contemplation...lets' see if this works...
https://drive.google.com/a/ashevill...0BzQ6s9CUyWnUNjVFck1vUFVFcDg/view?usp=sharing
Yep, it's what I've been threatening to do...
https://drive.google.com/a/ashevill...0BzQ6s9CUyWnUNjVFck1vUFVFcDg/view?usp=sharing
Yep, it's what I've been threatening to do...
Mags, referring back to your 11/12 posts:
"The are a host of upgrades which can be made to the conventional bending wave transducer. (Agreed...) Like the walsh driver. With only a clone of the cone and termination there is still quite a bit more to do. (It would seem so; the G. Physiks units seem to be the 'state of the art', rather than HHR {copies of the originals} or Ohm {which don't appear to be 'evolving'}) Even then I dont know how well the Walsh driver functions. (Join the crowd *L*) If anything I have said turns out to be mis worded or incorrect please correct me. (Not needed IMHO) There is only one function which stops mbl from being bending wave. Anyone got a clue? The patent seems to be super extensive and is the most information filled paper on bending wave speakers." (My take on the MBLs' are that they are an attempt to approach the 'pulsating sphere' point source as far as current tech can take it at this time. Very Complex...I'm in awe of the guy that's doing a DIY version.)
12th November 2014 08:09 PM
Magnasanti: "I Will link to the information I have on bending waves. (Please!) The cone material is what drives bending waves as well as the termination function. The material must be high modulas with low density. The more the material is in inversely increased the more octaves the driver will behave in a bending mode function. This can be figured out with a formula. The steepness is to attenuate this function as the stiffness changes with slope. The shape allows for the dispersion of a range of frequencies. that are made at specific point along the cone. The length of the cone is also important. As it relates to the dipole frequency. There needs to be a some what rigid termination which does not seem to be in some of the pictures. Please correct me if there are terminations in the finished models. (By 'terminations', I'm assuming you're referring to the 'surround' at the base of the cone.) The benefits of the bending wave speaker are two they allow for near perfect impulse response as the wight of the cone is almost not relevant.(It would seem that way, but minimizing it perhaps can't hurt) if There are closely resistor based speaker functions as opposed to capacitance and inductance. They allow for omni dispersion. All this cannot or hasnt been done to the most of the ability.(Again, agreed...) Generally the voice coil is the only weight to be factored. The termination is very important there are lots of ways to achieve this and is something of great importance to me in my clone. The design must be well done to allow for the full ability of bending waves and thus transient response."
Excuse my ('interrupting') you like that, but it seemed like a way to respond 'better' to your post. *G*
The last point you make on 'termination importance' is one that I've understood as being Very Important for the cone to behave properly. As the 'wave' descends the cone to the bottom edge, it 'reflects' back Up the cone; much like a rock dropped into a large pan of water. It's very important to Stop That as much as possible, or at least in a practical fashion. The EVA I'm using for a surround/terminus doesn't 'flex' like the typical speakers'. In fact, I've got the cone slightly 'pressed' against it. I suspect that in doing so that I'm limiting/damping some of the reflection until I increase the volume. That begins to 'push' the limits of what the EVA can absorb. It likely that the voice coil at sustained high volumes will start to heat up and cook too, since it's being restrained from 'normal' excursions.
My somewhat limited understanding of the subjects...You do sound as if you've done some serious study on it. I'd love to see those links on 'bending wave' info, even if they fry my little brain...what's left of it, anyway...*L*
"The are a host of upgrades which can be made to the conventional bending wave transducer. (Agreed...) Like the walsh driver. With only a clone of the cone and termination there is still quite a bit more to do. (It would seem so; the G. Physiks units seem to be the 'state of the art', rather than HHR {copies of the originals} or Ohm {which don't appear to be 'evolving'}) Even then I dont know how well the Walsh driver functions. (Join the crowd *L*) If anything I have said turns out to be mis worded or incorrect please correct me. (Not needed IMHO) There is only one function which stops mbl from being bending wave. Anyone got a clue? The patent seems to be super extensive and is the most information filled paper on bending wave speakers." (My take on the MBLs' are that they are an attempt to approach the 'pulsating sphere' point source as far as current tech can take it at this time. Very Complex...I'm in awe of the guy that's doing a DIY version.)
12th November 2014 08:09 PM
Magnasanti: "I Will link to the information I have on bending waves. (Please!) The cone material is what drives bending waves as well as the termination function. The material must be high modulas with low density. The more the material is in inversely increased the more octaves the driver will behave in a bending mode function. This can be figured out with a formula. The steepness is to attenuate this function as the stiffness changes with slope. The shape allows for the dispersion of a range of frequencies. that are made at specific point along the cone. The length of the cone is also important. As it relates to the dipole frequency. There needs to be a some what rigid termination which does not seem to be in some of the pictures. Please correct me if there are terminations in the finished models. (By 'terminations', I'm assuming you're referring to the 'surround' at the base of the cone.) The benefits of the bending wave speaker are two they allow for near perfect impulse response as the wight of the cone is almost not relevant.(It would seem that way, but minimizing it perhaps can't hurt) if There are closely resistor based speaker functions as opposed to capacitance and inductance. They allow for omni dispersion. All this cannot or hasnt been done to the most of the ability.(Again, agreed...) Generally the voice coil is the only weight to be factored. The termination is very important there are lots of ways to achieve this and is something of great importance to me in my clone. The design must be well done to allow for the full ability of bending waves and thus transient response."
Excuse my ('interrupting') you like that, but it seemed like a way to respond 'better' to your post. *G*
The last point you make on 'termination importance' is one that I've understood as being Very Important for the cone to behave properly. As the 'wave' descends the cone to the bottom edge, it 'reflects' back Up the cone; much like a rock dropped into a large pan of water. It's very important to Stop That as much as possible, or at least in a practical fashion. The EVA I'm using for a surround/terminus doesn't 'flex' like the typical speakers'. In fact, I've got the cone slightly 'pressed' against it. I suspect that in doing so that I'm limiting/damping some of the reflection until I increase the volume. That begins to 'push' the limits of what the EVA can absorb. It likely that the voice coil at sustained high volumes will start to heat up and cook too, since it's being restrained from 'normal' excursions.
My somewhat limited understanding of the subjects...You do sound as if you've done some serious study on it. I'd love to see those links on 'bending wave' info, even if they fry my little brain...what's left of it, anyway...*L*
Poking around 'bending wave' links, I run into this...
hifi/stereo - ikonoklast speakers
Now, it looks like these cones are being driven from the Base (like a conventional driver) as opposed to the top affixed to the voice coil. And apparently no fear of cancellations.
It would seem that the drivers are wired 'out of phase', so both 'move/vibrate' in a 'pistonic' fashion. It still requires termination at the 'opposite end' of the cone, but perhaps it might be easier to absorb/damp these 'higher' frequencies?
Something to investigate with another pair of 'mutants', perhaps. Glue the cone base to the cone of an existing speaker at the surround interior edge. Listen to what the 'ell happens when you 'invert' the cone...*shrug* Put a pillow on top.*L*
Kinda kidding, but it does trigger more questions...
hifi/stereo - ikonoklast speakers
Now, it looks like these cones are being driven from the Base (like a conventional driver) as opposed to the top affixed to the voice coil. And apparently no fear of cancellations.
It would seem that the drivers are wired 'out of phase', so both 'move/vibrate' in a 'pistonic' fashion. It still requires termination at the 'opposite end' of the cone, but perhaps it might be easier to absorb/damp these 'higher' frequencies?
Something to investigate with another pair of 'mutants', perhaps. Glue the cone base to the cone of an existing speaker at the surround interior edge. Listen to what the 'ell happens when you 'invert' the cone...*shrug* Put a pillow on top.*L*
Kinda kidding, but it does trigger more questions...
...and I LOVE this enclosures...Pretty and acoustically practical. Having to lay it down to hook it up is a PIA, but how often does one do that?
JBL TI6K - Av1- ??????? ????? ?????, ????? ??????????? ???????.
...but as a woodworker, DIY lamination is a serious project...
JBL TI6K - Av1- ??????? ????? ?????, ????? ??????????? ???????.
...but as a woodworker, DIY lamination is a serious project...