The data liens of USB D+ and D- must be a twisted pair, otherwise you are going to cause signal integrity issues, or at least next to each other, they are Low Voltage Differential Signals, and use each other for the return path.
What is the target differential impedance for USB?
Skin Effect, not a problem at these frequencies!
Ground bounce!!! Differential signalling.
What is the required maximum skew between D+ and D-.
Why silver it is not going to make ANY difference.
I doubt the night and day audio differences, have you got network analyser shots of the different cables, single step and eye diagrams will do.
Sorry to be negative but a standard good quality USB cable will give the same if not better results than a home made cable.
What is the target differential impedance for USB?
Skin Effect, not a problem at these frequencies!
Ground bounce!!! Differential signalling.
What is the required maximum skew between D+ and D-.
Why silver it is not going to make ANY difference.
I doubt the night and day audio differences, have you got network analyser shots of the different cables, single step and eye diagrams will do.
Sorry to be negative but a standard good quality USB cable will give the same if not better results than a home made cable.
Marce, with all due respect, you were not there. I point out that the empirical evidence of improvement is obvious if you simply hear it. I also point out that the notion that there is no science to back up the observed behaviors is also flawed. A quick Google search will show tons of credible information about the importance of signal path architecture and the impact on signal quality at these higher data rates.
I also fully admit that without a scope and some serious engineering rigor I will not get it right. It is kind of like me saying, gee, I have tried 8 hours sleep, healthy eating and good exercise, and I am pretty darn sure I do better cognitively than when I drink all night and get 2 hrs sleep. If I were a medical researcher I could probably find the science behind this observation. Opps, quick Google search suggests there is some science there.
Now within those constraints I also have at my disposal the means to plug in any one of several commercial cables or the means to buy the most exotic or dollar store version. What is staying in my system is the one that sounds the best, and that is the one I described earlier. Oh, and I am going to get a good night's sleep, even though I haven't read all that research either. If that offends you, I am sorry to have triggered your phobia. If someone else benefits from the notion and takes it further, I hope they take the time to share their findings.
cheers.
hearing is not empirical data, especially with digital and with digital audio. You are attributing analogue beliefs onto digital transmission, it does not work that way.
Why use silver cable, it is not necessary or going to make any improvement to the signal.
What is the characteristic impedance of your cable? does it match the USB specification.
Now I might not have been there with all due respect, but I do know an awful lot about signal integrity and getting signals from A to B, be they digital or analogue.
I don't care whether you are going to loose sleep or not, that is your problem if you can not take constructive criticism.
You are applying audiophile beliefs and design philosophy to a digital interface cable and that is wrong, and hearing is no arbiter in this instance as has been pointed out many times, it is digital, it gets through or it doesn't, you cannot create a better sound with a cable, problems with digital signal transmission are obvious as drop outs , clicks etc you do not get a smoother sound or anything else, its digital and requires engineering solutions not audio based mythology.
Why use silver cable, it is not necessary or going to make any improvement to the signal.
What is the characteristic impedance of your cable? does it match the USB specification.
Now I might not have been there with all due respect, but I do know an awful lot about signal integrity and getting signals from A to B, be they digital or analogue.
I am quite aware of how high speed digital propagates (more so than you) and what effect signal integrity, that is why I have questioned your design as I believe it is flawed, luckily digital is quite good at getting through, hence why we use it to transfer signals.
I don't care whether you are going to loose sleep or not, that is your problem if you can not take constructive criticism.
You are applying audiophile beliefs and design philosophy to a digital interface cable and that is wrong, and hearing is no arbiter in this instance as has been pointed out many times, it is digital, it gets through or it doesn't, you cannot create a better sound with a cable, problems with digital signal transmission are obvious as drop outs , clicks etc you do not get a smoother sound or anything else, its digital and requires engineering solutions not audio based mythology.
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As usual
I will keep the rest of this to myself. I see no constructive criticism. I made no claims to having this correct, only an early observation that it is easy for even an inexperienced dolt to do better than the engineering elite at VERY low cost. The response was as always, no you are not equipped to believe your ears and therefore we keep our minds closed.
So be it.. I will continue to listen to and enjoy the music at elevated quality with very little investment. You are welcome to enjoy music that by definition lacks dynamics, musicality and a sense of live performance if you are using a stock USB cable that fully meets the USB2 standard.
I will keep the rest of this to myself. I see no constructive criticism. I made no claims to having this correct, only an early observation that it is easy for even an inexperienced dolt to do better than the engineering elite at VERY low cost. The response was as always, no you are not equipped to believe your ears and therefore we keep our minds closed.
So be it.. I will continue to listen to and enjoy the music at elevated quality with very little investment. You are welcome to enjoy music that by definition lacks dynamics, musicality and a sense of live performance if you are using a stock USB cable that fully meets the USB2 standard.
And you are welcome to explore the resilience of modern digital audio formats by using significantly poorly-engineered cables which at best can make no improvement but at worst can lead to data corruption. If you choose to interpret data corruption as 'musicality' then that of course is your privilege.
Buying a USB cable which meets the USB specs is not just an exercise for the 'engineering elite' but for anyone who either understands electronics and so knows that he needs the correct cable, or anyone who doesn't understand electronics and is wise enough to trust those who do.
Buying a USB cable which meets the USB specs is not just an exercise for the 'engineering elite' but for anyone who either understands electronics and so knows that he needs the correct cable, or anyone who doesn't understand electronics and is wise enough to trust those who do.
The whole point of the spec as DF96 has stated is so that the interface works, I get a lot of my info that I require for USB from here and the manufacturers data sheets for the transceiver's.
USB.org - Documents
The 'engineering elite' who follow these rigorous rules (physics) of course have designed the electronics that allows us to talk on this forum, your PC, all sorts of electrical and electronic equipment that works and works reliably, so the 'elite' are doing something right.
I did point out that D+ and D- are a differential pair, you may look up how they work and why these lines have to be in intimate contact, this is for the very thing you say you want, signal integrity, yet you ignore the advice given that would help you achieve this.
USB.org - Documents
The 'engineering elite' who follow these rigorous rules (physics) of course have designed the electronics that allows us to talk on this forum, your PC, all sorts of electrical and electronic equipment that works and works reliably, so the 'elite' are doing something right.
I did point out that D+ and D- are a differential pair, you may look up how they work and why these lines have to be in intimate contact, this is for the very thing you say you want, signal integrity, yet you ignore the advice given that would help you achieve this.
I would be interested in how this is so.
"So be it.. I will continue to listen to and enjoy the music at elevated quality with very little investment. You are welcome to enjoy music that by definition lacks dynamics, musicality and a sense of live performance if you are using a stock USB cable that fully meets the USB2 standard."
Allowing for an argument by popularity, are you seriously implying the the several billion (yes, billion) USB cables around the world do not work properly? But your glue and string one does?
Good luck with that!
Allowing for an argument by popularity, are you seriously implying the the several billion (yes, billion) USB cables around the world do not work properly? But your glue and string one does?
Good luck with that!
Luck is not necessary, just some understanding. The information is freely available on the web: USB characteristic impedance, twin-line transmission theory etc.
I only have 45 years experience in radio and audio. I know how to calculate characteristic impedance and how to measure it, so I am in a position to make my own USB-spec cables. Curiously, doing that has never crossed my mind. As I have said before, anyone who knows enough to make his own cables also knows enough not to do it!
I only have 45 years experience in radio and audio. I know how to calculate characteristic impedance and how to measure it, so I am in a position to make my own USB-spec cables. Curiously, doing that has never crossed my mind. As I have said before, anyone who knows enough to make his own cables also knows enough not to do it!
I can't resist - this one will really make you nuts
Yes. It is DIY.
Yes it is short - 1/2 inch
It uses silver wire god forbid
No it does not come from from walmart like those billions of proper USB cables, and
Yes this fool says it sounds even better than my 6" version.
The HORROR
Yes. It is DIY.
Yes it is short - 1/2 inch
It uses silver wire god forbid
No it does not come from from walmart like those billions of proper USB cables, and
Yes this fool says it sounds even better than my 6" version.
The HORROR
Attachments
Yes. It is DIY.
Yes it is short - 1/2 inch
It uses silver wire god forbid
No it does not come from from walmart like those billions of proper USB cables, and
Yes this fool says it sounds even better than my 6" version.
The HORROR
Why be so silly, I and others have posted links to USB data, these guides are there to be followed. You have by your own admission no electronics background yet your playing with USB cables and totally ignoring the specifications, that is plain ignorance and is not the best way to learn electronics. The whole point of these specifications is so that USB and other interfaces work, but I suppose that's only for the 'engineering elite'
looking at your photo, I would recommend you look at some other 'engineering elite' documentation regarding SELV and other electrical safety issues.
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For 1/2 inch connection you can use almost anything, as EM and transmission line theory says. A bad 1/2 inch cable is likely to sound better than a bad 6 inch cable. Thanks for mounting an experiment which confirms what we have been telling you, even though it might not be what you thought you were doing.
Don't ask me speak to the designer
This was done by Pete Daniel.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/audio-sector/51381-audiosector-chip-amp-kits-dacs-chassis-246.html
He has some level of following on this site. The thread has over 1m views because he has made ground breaking achievements by combining engineering and observation to challenge the status quo. He claimed it sounded good. So I tried it. It does. There are noise issues to be dealt with. I have. Deal with it.
This was done by Pete Daniel.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/audio-sector/51381-audiosector-chip-amp-kits-dacs-chassis-246.html
He has some level of following on this site. The thread has over 1m views because he has made ground breaking achievements by combining engineering and observation to challenge the status quo. He claimed it sounded good. So I tried it. It does. There are noise issues to be dealt with. I have. Deal with it.
Who is Peter Daniel? Does he make his own USB cables too? If so, lets hope he knows what he is doing. If not, what relevance does it have to this thread?
'Ground breaking achievements' in audio are only made by those who understand and use engineering, not those who ignore it. Which group does he fit into?
'Ground breaking achievements' in audio are only made by those who understand and use engineering, not those who ignore it. Which group does he fit into?
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