Thank you very much. After little pause I returned to this discussion and you nailed my current thoughts exactly ! 🙂
I know amp is bad, it was not appropriate even new and now after 20 ys it's much worse ... I have have considered some new - Marantz PM7000N or cheaper PM6007 or expensive Hegel H90, Audiolab 6000A or similar. But I'm not sure it's the right way. Their AB class has low distorsion at too much power and for low power it rapidly get worse.
https://audio.com.pl/images/3/1/3/61313-marantz-pm7000n-audiocompl-lab3.jpg
Only solution seems to be class A. Even with low 85dB sensitivity speaker 1W is more than enough for what I need and want. With such low power low efficiency and heating is not a problem. And with such low power I would need no preamp as my M-DAC has variable output.
But there is no commercial amp with such specifications ?
But class A amp seems to be easy to build so DIY some can be easy ? Can you reccomend some quality and proven construction (solid one, no tubes) ?
Bass response ... Basic question is - full range 3-ways or 2-ways satelites with sealed sub. Both methods have their strenghts and problems.
With sub (or two ?) satelites can be more efficient and there is no problem to use D-class amps for subs. Subs can be placed on another place in room and it can solve problems with room modes in small room (but can be problem where to place them in small room 🙂). There are many small monitors on market for acceptable prices so it seems to be easier than looking for good 3-way ? But integration of satelites and subs can be a bit tricky and sub should be some good for music and not for HT effects ...
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yes, they were great (except i bit too much present upper mids/lower highs), but I am afraid after 20 ys ferrofluid in tweeter is probably dried ?
I had a nad 2030 which I enjoyed for many years, then I tried an chi-fi class D (based on a tda 3116 I think ) , and the improvement was not subtle, the nad hasn't been turned on since. Then I thought I try a pam 3 watt amp, I don't know if it's the different out put filter I used ( two ferrite core toroid chokes in parallel per out ), but I found this a further improvement.
In this video He's saying the design is good for low volume listening.. The frequency response has a major depression through the treble..
I think I'm around 20, which begs the question what do I do with the dam things now I've made them. I've resolved to try and keep my next speakers small, using cheep parts. Perhaps unused speakers act like bass traps. Perhaps I should connect resistors across the terminals of unused speakers.
I can confirm your findings. The CDM7s excel at cranking it out. They suck listening to TV. I actually have a pair of Fostex monitors as well for the TV. I have a Parasound PLD/L1500 pre and an Adcom 5400 Amp. My CDM7s have has the tweeters replaced with Daytons (now NLA), arguably an improvement.
Yes, small fullrange is great suggestion. No need for big complicated backloaded horns, just use sub. Two small fullranges in small boxes can be easily placed for nice soundstage. Sub, ideally with plate amp can offer flexibility of its own volume, crossover point, phase adjustment.
I haven't read the thread so perhaps its been mentioned, but their is no point in going forward without pinning down some principals of psychoacoustics as they relate to volume levels if you really want to find a solution. Best place I can think of for that would be Audio Science Review since there are people there advancing the state of the art in that realm at their day jobs, and AudioBS gets called out fast.
If you're going amp shopping, you might want to look at some of the reviews over there. I was reluctant to go class D but finally did and i dont touch the various amps i've collected over the years. There is probably discussion around here on assembling modular class d amps if its of interest.
If you're going amp shopping, you might want to look at some of the reviews over there. I was reluctant to go class D but finally did and i dont touch the various amps i've collected over the years. There is probably discussion around here on assembling modular class d amps if its of interest.
It is hard to believe that such a simple request can produce so many responses that offer advice which is unsubstantiated, plain wrong and or not help to really answer the question which is “I'm thinking about building my own speakers. Can you advise me which concept to choose, some projects that would meet my ideas?”
First of all - Speakers
The OP (bh69) said “I prefer listen at low volumes - to preserve hearing from damage and to relax without getting tired of too much noise. My dedicated hifi room is small (3.6x4.8m) so optimal distance of speakers is about 1.8m.”
It has been suggested that this is near-field listening, it is not. Near-field means that your ears are so close to the speakers that you hear the direct sound from the speakers at a sufficiently high volume to mask any reflected sound from the environment. Near-field speakers were designed for studio monitoring as a replacement for earphones. One of the objectives of such designs was to avoid or reduce the necessity for room treatment. Typically those speakers would be within 0.5m of the listener’s ear.
Several people have queried what exactly is meant by low volume and appear to want a definitive answer in dB. This is completely unnecessary if you assume that low means comfortable and that bh69 will still want to use his volume control, which of course will change the sound level. Comfortable listening is in the range of 45-70db for most people. But that information is of little value to know as almost any decent loudspeaker can produce those levels. Also the figure refers to averaged values over a period. For good reproduction of music dynamic range is important so, if like me, you listen to a Shostakovich symphony a quiet flute passage which you can just about hear can be followed by a very loud blast from the brass section accompanied by thunderous kettle drums. The result can almost make you jump and instantaneous levels can peak at 90dB. That effect is lost if the system does not have good phase coherence. In practice that is easiest to achieve with fewer drivers and crossovers.
Full range (FR) drivers would at first glance appear to be the solution but many of them have low power handling capability and need large cabinets or horns to get acceptable listening levels in the bass register. The OP has not stated any preference for speaker size but generally speaking a FR or wide range driver crossed over at a low frequency (200-300Hz) to a bass driver will work well in smaller cabinets than a full range horn requires.
Other than organ music there is very little need for the normally stated 20Hz to 20Khz response. The lowest note on an 88 key piano and the bass guitar is 30.2Hz, the highest fundamental on both pipe organ and piano is just 4,186Hz. The majority of us cannot hear notes above 16Khz which corresponds to the fourth harmonic of those instruments. Every other instrument, except electronic synthesisers have a narrower frequency range. So a flat response from 30Hz-16Khz would be more than acceptable and will be easier to implement. A further compromise can be made because the frequency response does not cut off at those frequencies but gradually rolls off. This is important if cabinet size is limited. I have previously pointed out that phase coherence is vital so a reduced frequency response range with good phase coherence will always sound better (more realistic) than a wide range system with poor coherence.
Again, the OP stated “I have looked for some loudspeakers, but commercial types that are on offer in our country do not meet what I need. I find that they are tuned for higher volumes, they do not play well at low volumes. Also, none of the ones I tried convinced me by their performance of acoustic instruments and voices (tember, color, ambient sounds).”
That last sentence sums up what is wrong about speakers with poor phase coherence – which is the majority of multi-driver rectangular boxes.
In summary the concept is that the best speakers have a minimum number of drivers with simple crossovers and are not cased in rectangular boxes.
Apart from Quad electrostatics (I own 3 pairs) I design my own speakers and have no experience of any of those available on diyaudio so cannot make a recommendation for a specific design. It may help you to know that our day to day speaker is a two way system . A wide range 50mm driver which is pretty flat from 300Hz to 12Khz, is down by 5 db at 22KHz and has a resonant frequency of 87Hz. That is mounted in a 25mm spherical enclosure which sits on top of a transmission line cabinet. The transmission line uses a 200mm driver which is flat from 60Hz to 800Hz. The two are crossed over at 200Hz using a simple 3dB per octave crossover. The total system is substantially flat from 35Hz to 16Hz. The crossover produces a phase shift of 90 degrees so the two drivers have their centres offset to compensate. Everyone who has listened to these speakers comment how realistic pianos and violins sound and that the realism is independent of the volume.
Now to amplifiers.
The OP said “I assume the use of an amplifier Marantz PM7000N (reviews are good and I like that it's all in one solution for playing FLACs from USB disc and for internet radio)” which gives a good reason for wanting it – total integration in a single unit. Why try to persuade him to use something else?
I have not heard a PM7000N in use but it can deliver 80Wats per channel into 8ohms. The thread gets muddied by discussions of only needing 1watt and recommendations for building low power class A amplifiers. I cannot see anything about which problem those suggestions will fix particularly when no speaker system has yet been identified. So a couple of basic points :
1. It is ALWAYS better to have more rather than less power available than a speaker system can handle because if you drive an under powered amp which does not have a transformer output too hard you will produce a DC current which is one of the best ways to destroy a driver. If it does not do that it will produce distortion. People may argue that bh69 only wants to listen at low levels and that won’t happen. But what about those 90dB peaks I mentioned? Even if DC is not produced the amp/speaker combination will not have the required dynamic range. I use a 150watt per channel amplifier to drive a pair of Quad ESL57 which are allegedly prone to damage from too much power. Well my experience is that the volume is too loud for comfortable listening long before they are driven to their maximum specified power.
2. The vast majority of modern amplifiers have a flat frequency response well beyond that of any loudspeaker so what you use almost becomes more a choice of facilities and appearance. At the moment my main speakers I described above are driven by a Marantz NR1200 which has a similar power output to the PM7000N. It works acceptably well as an amplifier and I bought it for similar reasons to the OP. As it turns out using FLAC files on a USB device (my main music source) lacks the facilities I need like random play, metadata information, cover display etc. I don’t need all those HDMI inputs but do want more optical inputs. Of course none, of that has anything to do with the quality of the amplification. Where the NR1200 fails is handling those pesky 90dB peaks, there is just not enough reserve current to drive the speakers fully which means I don’t jump when the brass kicks in and the impact of the music is lost. I shall replace it with an Audiolab or Arcam.
My advice therefore is get your new speakers first. Use them with the existing amplifier. Decide what is wrong with that system and then choose an amplifier, or modify the speakers to fix the problems that you have.
First of all - Speakers
The OP (bh69) said “I prefer listen at low volumes - to preserve hearing from damage and to relax without getting tired of too much noise. My dedicated hifi room is small (3.6x4.8m) so optimal distance of speakers is about 1.8m.”
It has been suggested that this is near-field listening, it is not. Near-field means that your ears are so close to the speakers that you hear the direct sound from the speakers at a sufficiently high volume to mask any reflected sound from the environment. Near-field speakers were designed for studio monitoring as a replacement for earphones. One of the objectives of such designs was to avoid or reduce the necessity for room treatment. Typically those speakers would be within 0.5m of the listener’s ear.
Several people have queried what exactly is meant by low volume and appear to want a definitive answer in dB. This is completely unnecessary if you assume that low means comfortable and that bh69 will still want to use his volume control, which of course will change the sound level. Comfortable listening is in the range of 45-70db for most people. But that information is of little value to know as almost any decent loudspeaker can produce those levels. Also the figure refers to averaged values over a period. For good reproduction of music dynamic range is important so, if like me, you listen to a Shostakovich symphony a quiet flute passage which you can just about hear can be followed by a very loud blast from the brass section accompanied by thunderous kettle drums. The result can almost make you jump and instantaneous levels can peak at 90dB. That effect is lost if the system does not have good phase coherence. In practice that is easiest to achieve with fewer drivers and crossovers.
Full range (FR) drivers would at first glance appear to be the solution but many of them have low power handling capability and need large cabinets or horns to get acceptable listening levels in the bass register. The OP has not stated any preference for speaker size but generally speaking a FR or wide range driver crossed over at a low frequency (200-300Hz) to a bass driver will work well in smaller cabinets than a full range horn requires.
Other than organ music there is very little need for the normally stated 20Hz to 20Khz response. The lowest note on an 88 key piano and the bass guitar is 30.2Hz, the highest fundamental on both pipe organ and piano is just 4,186Hz. The majority of us cannot hear notes above 16Khz which corresponds to the fourth harmonic of those instruments. Every other instrument, except electronic synthesisers have a narrower frequency range. So a flat response from 30Hz-16Khz would be more than acceptable and will be easier to implement. A further compromise can be made because the frequency response does not cut off at those frequencies but gradually rolls off. This is important if cabinet size is limited. I have previously pointed out that phase coherence is vital so a reduced frequency response range with good phase coherence will always sound better (more realistic) than a wide range system with poor coherence.
Again, the OP stated “I have looked for some loudspeakers, but commercial types that are on offer in our country do not meet what I need. I find that they are tuned for higher volumes, they do not play well at low volumes. Also, none of the ones I tried convinced me by their performance of acoustic instruments and voices (tember, color, ambient sounds).”
That last sentence sums up what is wrong about speakers with poor phase coherence – which is the majority of multi-driver rectangular boxes.
In summary the concept is that the best speakers have a minimum number of drivers with simple crossovers and are not cased in rectangular boxes.
Apart from Quad electrostatics (I own 3 pairs) I design my own speakers and have no experience of any of those available on diyaudio so cannot make a recommendation for a specific design. It may help you to know that our day to day speaker is a two way system . A wide range 50mm driver which is pretty flat from 300Hz to 12Khz, is down by 5 db at 22KHz and has a resonant frequency of 87Hz. That is mounted in a 25mm spherical enclosure which sits on top of a transmission line cabinet. The transmission line uses a 200mm driver which is flat from 60Hz to 800Hz. The two are crossed over at 200Hz using a simple 3dB per octave crossover. The total system is substantially flat from 35Hz to 16Hz. The crossover produces a phase shift of 90 degrees so the two drivers have their centres offset to compensate. Everyone who has listened to these speakers comment how realistic pianos and violins sound and that the realism is independent of the volume.
Now to amplifiers.
The OP said “I assume the use of an amplifier Marantz PM7000N (reviews are good and I like that it's all in one solution for playing FLACs from USB disc and for internet radio)” which gives a good reason for wanting it – total integration in a single unit. Why try to persuade him to use something else?
I have not heard a PM7000N in use but it can deliver 80Wats per channel into 8ohms. The thread gets muddied by discussions of only needing 1watt and recommendations for building low power class A amplifiers. I cannot see anything about which problem those suggestions will fix particularly when no speaker system has yet been identified. So a couple of basic points :
1. It is ALWAYS better to have more rather than less power available than a speaker system can handle because if you drive an under powered amp which does not have a transformer output too hard you will produce a DC current which is one of the best ways to destroy a driver. If it does not do that it will produce distortion. People may argue that bh69 only wants to listen at low levels and that won’t happen. But what about those 90dB peaks I mentioned? Even if DC is not produced the amp/speaker combination will not have the required dynamic range. I use a 150watt per channel amplifier to drive a pair of Quad ESL57 which are allegedly prone to damage from too much power. Well my experience is that the volume is too loud for comfortable listening long before they are driven to their maximum specified power.
2. The vast majority of modern amplifiers have a flat frequency response well beyond that of any loudspeaker so what you use almost becomes more a choice of facilities and appearance. At the moment my main speakers I described above are driven by a Marantz NR1200 which has a similar power output to the PM7000N. It works acceptably well as an amplifier and I bought it for similar reasons to the OP. As it turns out using FLAC files on a USB device (my main music source) lacks the facilities I need like random play, metadata information, cover display etc. I don’t need all those HDMI inputs but do want more optical inputs. Of course none, of that has anything to do with the quality of the amplification. Where the NR1200 fails is handling those pesky 90dB peaks, there is just not enough reserve current to drive the speakers fully which means I don’t jump when the brass kicks in and the impact of the music is lost. I shall replace it with an Audiolab or Arcam.
My advice therefore is get your new speakers first. Use them with the existing amplifier. Decide what is wrong with that system and then choose an amplifier, or modify the speakers to fix the problems that you have.
Oops I forgot one other very important point. The reason why most commercial speakers need high volume to "come alive" is because the woofer and mid-range drivers have high moving mass i.e. heavy cones. the easiest way to find a loudspeaker that sounds good at low volume is to have low moving mass. But if you do not have access to that information how will you know? Most loudspeaker manufactures publish response curves which show the frequency range. The graph should also show the impedance across that range. Low moving mass is indicated by slim sharp peaks on that curve, wide peaks indicate high mass or poor crossover design. No response curve = don't buy it.
I read it and (as proof) will ask: what 2" and 8" drivers? is sphere 25cm not 25mm? is XO 6dB/oct not 3dB (how)? THANKS
Thanks for reading,
The drivers are Bandor-50 a 2" metal cone no longer produced, the same driver as in my Atavar. Bass driver is a Volt B200-4, I think also out of production although the 10" version is still available. Sphere is 25cm, a well spotted typo. Crossover is 3dB with simple capacitor/inductor network. This does not produce a flat response curve around the crossover, but as I implied previously, phase coherence trumps response flatness every time when it comes to actual music. Which is the only thing that matters.
Bandor speakers were hand made made by Doreen Bance who was production manager for Ted Jordon. My original design used her 8 inch bass drivers which were also metal cone but when I tried tto buy a pair they were unavailable. The Volt although very good has a higher moving mass which means in theory it would have poorer transient response. However, I will never know, and what I have got works fine.
Your statement 'Phase coherence trumps respone flatness every time' is just plain wrong. Yes, that is just an opinion.
Flat fr response is the king. Phase response in many highly regarded speakers is often rollercoaster. Phase importance is highly debated issue.
By diy it isn't hard to achieve both, reasonably flat FR and coherent phase around XO, even without complicated tools and techniques, given that we can choose compatible drivers and physically shift them. Android Frequency Sound Generator APP playing XO frequency sweep tells a lot.
Back to the OP question. Here in Beijing almost no one lives in a "house"; neighbors are always a thin wall/floor/ceiling/window away. To date, I have not reached a conclusion on what qualities are predictive of "HQ low-volume-listening". It isn't clear to me, given the "hearing loudness" issue, a flat FR will beat an extended but overly-hot HF, listening late at night. Since very HF will be too faint to be heard, imaging will suffer and airyness is out. Bass impact forget it. Dynamic compression becomes a good thing, lest brass section wakes up the neighborhood. Micro-dynamic linearity or life-like articulation, #1 in my book, may become even more important--but do I really desire palpable yet faint (distant) music, surely a contradiction? I face these same questions most nights and still don't know. 😵
What about headphones? Working on them https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-crossfeed-stereo-sound.391630/#post-7163533
What about headphones? Working on them https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-crossfeed-stereo-sound.391630/#post-7163533