Hi Guys,
Just bought myself some 0.5mm OD /24AWG/ .999 silver wire for interconnects between my DAC and AMP.
I read a lot about cables, blah blah, these days. So i decided to connect my ODAC and Moscode AMP with 1 x 24AWg wire diy cable. As Gizmo said somewhere / the guy that designed my amp/ there is no big difference if cheap RCA or expensive is used, the wire matters much more. SO at the moment or ever, i will not buy expensive pure silver RCAs or 20Euro silver coated RCA connectors.
I do not want to discuss the above said.
What i wonder and my BIG question is:
1.How the heck these super duper expensive 99.99999999... silver plated or pure silver doesn't tarnish? Cause i live near seaside and everything tarnishes. whats the gimmick there?
2.I have many hobbies and i found these silver plating kits. A friend has the gold plating one. So what if i make my own copper RCA plugs on my mini lathe and plate them? or just plate some cheaper connectors. So i end with better stuff on the cheap.
Plus i could silverplate all the RCAs on my preamp and amp?
-Plug N' Plate® Silver Plating Kit
-Silversmith 4 oz
What do you think /know/? ? i could not find info on that
Just bought myself some 0.5mm OD /24AWG/ .999 silver wire for interconnects between my DAC and AMP.
I read a lot about cables, blah blah, these days. So i decided to connect my ODAC and Moscode AMP with 1 x 24AWg wire diy cable. As Gizmo said somewhere / the guy that designed my amp/ there is no big difference if cheap RCA or expensive is used, the wire matters much more. SO at the moment or ever, i will not buy expensive pure silver RCAs or 20Euro silver coated RCA connectors.
I do not want to discuss the above said.
What i wonder and my BIG question is:
1.How the heck these super duper expensive 99.99999999... silver plated or pure silver doesn't tarnish? Cause i live near seaside and everything tarnishes. whats the gimmick there?
2.I have many hobbies and i found these silver plating kits. A friend has the gold plating one. So what if i make my own copper RCA plugs on my mini lathe and plate them? or just plate some cheaper connectors. So i end with better stuff on the cheap.
Plus i could silverplate all the RCAs on my preamp and amp?
-Plug N' Plate® Silver Plating Kit
-Silversmith 4 oz
What do you think /know/? ? i could not find info on that
silver is only 5% more conductive than copper, for the same wire diameter.
19cm of copper has same resistance as 20cm of silver. There is nothing else electrically special about silver... Silver oxide is still conductive, though; where copper oxides are not, but tarnish is more commonly sulfides and such, IIRC...
Silver plating from kits is a not terribly thick coating, but if you have interest, stop talking about it and just do it....
Messing about with wires is a waste of time and energy, unless you are doing it for pure aesthetic reasons, like making custom length interconnects so they dress in nicely to make a neat and organized install, etc...
19cm of copper has same resistance as 20cm of silver. There is nothing else electrically special about silver... Silver oxide is still conductive, though; where copper oxides are not, but tarnish is more commonly sulfides and such, IIRC...
Silver plating from kits is a not terribly thick coating, but if you have interest, stop talking about it and just do it....
Messing about with wires is a waste of time and energy, unless you are doing it for pure aesthetic reasons, like making custom length interconnects so they dress in nicely to make a neat and organized install, etc...
Plating your own connectors will be a bit of a problem... you are likely to have (as stated) a very thing plating that will wear of or tarnish, use decent quality commercial connectors, creating a high resistance connection point would mitigate the silvers lower resistance...
If you don't want to discuss an aspect of wire then I would not put up any comments about wire as the BS put forth by many regarding wire and cables is a bit of a red flag to many who understand signal propagation.....
If you don't want to discuss an aspect of wire then I would not put up any comments about wire as the BS put forth by many regarding wire and cables is a bit of a red flag to many who understand signal propagation.....
I did not want to discuss wire for the following points of view of mine:
-Cheap wire is crap, good wire is not necessary the most expensive wire. i am not into thousand $$ wires or similar.
But- people who don't hear a difference are either deaf or they don't have good enough combo.
Fact is i am an acoustic instrument maker and as such i have days fine tuning instruments so i really push my hearing to the limit. And yes, i hear a fly fart from 10 meters, so i am ready to slap in the face and send to an ophthalmologist anybody who says he doesn't hear the difference
between chinese 2$ cable and cheap but quality brand interconnect for example. Or between capacitors. Or between DAC and motherboard sound card for that matter .
I dont listen music to loud levels and wear always ear protection even when i am sanding and all laugh at me why that. If you know what i mean.
Don't tell that to my wife who did not manage to hear a difference between cheap 2$ interconnect and the cable i am using now between my Odac and my hybrid amp.
To put things bluntly, most of the people who insist there is not difference are not aware that no electrons are traveling path between 2 elements in the audio chain but more like, to simplify it- every element of the chain has particles that vibrate and transmit that vibration to the other element vibrating particles. So if thats true, hows that the material will not affect the sound???
That being said i am not into gimmicks and still wonder how's that pure silver interconnects will not tarnish, or they are not so pure?
-Cheap wire is crap, good wire is not necessary the most expensive wire. i am not into thousand $$ wires or similar.
But- people who don't hear a difference are either deaf or they don't have good enough combo.
Fact is i am an acoustic instrument maker and as such i have days fine tuning instruments so i really push my hearing to the limit. And yes, i hear a fly fart from 10 meters, so i am ready to slap in the face and send to an ophthalmologist anybody who says he doesn't hear the difference
between chinese 2$ cable and cheap but quality brand interconnect for example. Or between capacitors. Or between DAC and motherboard sound card for that matter . I dont listen music to loud levels and wear always ear protection even when i am sanding and all laugh at me why that. If you know what i mean.
Don't tell that to my wife who did not manage to hear a difference between cheap 2$ interconnect and the cable i am using now between my Odac and my hybrid amp.
To put things bluntly, most of the people who insist there is not difference are not aware that no electrons are traveling path between 2 elements in the audio chain but more like, to simplify it- every element of the chain has particles that vibrate and transmit that vibration to the other element vibrating particles. So if thats true, hows that the material will not affect the sound???
That being said i am not into gimmicks and still wonder how's that pure silver interconnects will not tarnish, or they are not so pure?
Silver not only leaches onto other metals and grows micro finger, it tarnishes badly, goes black and becomes a poor conductor. Gold does not tarnish but is not as good at conducting as copper.
"To put things bluntly, most of the people who insist there is not difference are not aware that no electrons are traveling path between 2 elements in the audio chain but more like, to simplify it- every element of the chain has particles that vibrate and transmit that vibration to the other element vibrating particles. So if thats true, hows that the material will not affect the sound???"
You are asking for confirmation?
You need to get out more!
"To put things bluntly, most of the people who insist there is not difference are not aware that no electrons are traveling path between 2 elements in the audio chain but more like, to simplify it- every element of the chain has particles that vibrate and transmit that vibration to the other element vibrating particles. So if thats true, hows that the material will not affect the sound???"
You are asking for confirmation?
You need to get out more!
If you had a physical science degree you would know the answer. If you do not have such a degree you probably would not understand the answer; in any case you probably don't want to hear the answer.Boyan Silyavski said:
Make your cables; enjoy them. Continue to ignore science, but try not to provoke those who know you are mistaken.
That's why i said i don't want to discuss cables, but silver plating.
Though i could speak about dogs. I have a hunting dog. We go on a walk with friends and other dogs. We walk and dogs and people pass without stopping. Suddenly my dog stops urgently, walks back a meter and then starts running left. In 20 seconds seems he found a rabbit and starts chasing. the other dogs still don't know what is happening.
So if i could not smell the rabbit, neither the other dogs, that does not necessarily mean there is no rabbit smell crossing the road , and a rabbit near by. Which is like a big red sign for my dog's senses
I am not inventing this story . i have exceptional hunting dog. And that thing happens at least 2-3 times a month.
So of 10 people could not hear sth, that does not necessarily mean there is nobody that could hear it or that there is nothing to hear.
Anyways, seems instead of learning something useful , this discussion goes the wrong way. So lets stop here or if sb has something to contribute, let that be for silver plating RCAs and how that age.
Though i could speak about dogs. I have a hunting dog. We go on a walk with friends and other dogs. We walk and dogs and people pass without stopping. Suddenly my dog stops urgently, walks back a meter and then starts running left. In 20 seconds seems he found a rabbit and starts chasing. the other dogs still don't know what is happening.
So if i could not smell the rabbit, neither the other dogs, that does not necessarily mean there is no rabbit smell crossing the road , and a rabbit near by. Which is like a big red sign for my dog's senses
I am not inventing this story . i have exceptional hunting dog. And that thing happens at least 2-3 times a month.
So of 10 people could not hear sth, that does not necessarily mean there is nobody that could hear it or that there is nothing to hear.
Anyways, seems instead of learning something useful , this discussion goes the wrong way. So lets stop here or if sb has something to contribute, let that be for silver plating RCAs and how that age.
You could make cables out of mud, they sound good. Or a potato or a banana. I'm not kidding.
A few years back I made such cables, recorded thru them and posted the files here on DIYaudio.
Most people could not tell the difference between copper, mud, bananas or potatoes - and the original file.
No excuses. They got to play to back on any system they chose, in any way they chose. The only clue anyone found was a tiny bit more noise on the weird cables. That's because of the gain boost needed to overcome their high impedance. That was the ONLY tell.
If no one could tell the difference between mud, metal, bananas and potatoes, what chance do you think anyone who have telling one metal from another?
A few years back I made such cables, recorded thru them and posted the files here on DIYaudio.
Most people could not tell the difference between copper, mud, bananas or potatoes - and the original file.
No excuses. They got to play to back on any system they chose, in any way they chose. The only clue anyone found was a tiny bit more noise on the weird cables. That's because of the gain boost needed to overcome their high impedance. That was the ONLY tell.
If no one could tell the difference between mud, metal, bananas and potatoes, what chance do you think anyone who have telling one metal from another?
Ok, we will continue to speak about cables, now that you told me about the experiment
It would have been valid if you have made people listen behind an visual obstacle and you changed the cables, and kept same system and levels.
Hows that a valid experiment if i listen through my system to your recording? The only difference that could be heard would be as you said minor inconsistencies or noise or whatever strange.
So as i said that cable experiment tells me no facts nor points to deeper understanding how sound perception works.
I will try to explain what we hear and don't hear in yet another ways, no mumbo jumbo:
I designed and have ongoing small production of an acoustic musical instrument. Some of them i sell for one price, some more expensive and some 10 times the price of the first. 10 of 10 people / non musicians/ when visit me could not make difference in sound and i most hate when sb visits me and picks up negligently to try my personal master instrument to which all are tuned and compared to. Cause i keep it near to me for my own pleasure.
Whats the difference then if they all sound the same to the potential buyer?
Very simple in fact. They all sound the same. Play them for month or 2 every day and you will start to hear better and understand the limits of the cheap ones. The most expensive ones, which i call concert, do not have that limits. Plus its perfectly tuned not only for the base note, but octave and perfect fifth. Not that an inexperienced ear could hear that.
So what does that prove? People have different level of awareness and perception, not that there is not any difference in the source.
Other facts:
I have a friend studying classical guitar under one of the best classical guitar players and professors here in Spain. So sometimes he borrowed and changed the guitar playing. i was able 100% to guess what level the guitar is and how much is valued, even guessed right a guitar say priced 700 euro that played like a top guitar costing 5 times as much. And all that only after a couple of seconds. He was always astonished and said his professor said exactly what i said about the instrument.
So the fact is that an experienced ear would hear for 3 seconds what sb would need 10 years to develop himself to distinguish. Not that i am not making various instruments from about 10 years.
What i am saying, please Respect what others hear, even if you don't, cause maybe there is sth there. Sometimes may be not, but that doesn't prove a thing. As i respect people and don't tell them that they are bloody f***ing deaf if they don't hear what i am hearing
It would have been valid if you have made people listen behind an visual obstacle and you changed the cables, and kept same system and levels.
Hows that a valid experiment if i listen through my system to your recording? The only difference that could be heard would be as you said minor inconsistencies or noise or whatever strange.
So as i said that cable experiment tells me no facts nor points to deeper understanding how sound perception works.
I will try to explain what we hear and don't hear in yet another ways, no mumbo jumbo:
I designed and have ongoing small production of an acoustic musical instrument. Some of them i sell for one price, some more expensive and some 10 times the price of the first. 10 of 10 people / non musicians/ when visit me could not make difference in sound and i most hate when sb visits me and picks up negligently to try my personal master instrument to which all are tuned and compared to. Cause i keep it near to me for my own pleasure.
Whats the difference then if they all sound the same to the potential buyer?
Very simple in fact. They all sound the same. Play them for month or 2 every day and you will start to hear better and understand the limits of the cheap ones. The most expensive ones, which i call concert, do not have that limits. Plus its perfectly tuned not only for the base note, but octave and perfect fifth. Not that an inexperienced ear could hear that.
So what does that prove? People have different level of awareness and perception, not that there is not any difference in the source.
Other facts:
I have a friend studying classical guitar under one of the best classical guitar players and professors here in Spain. So sometimes he borrowed and changed the guitar playing. i was able 100% to guess what level the guitar is and how much is valued, even guessed right a guitar say priced 700 euro that played like a top guitar costing 5 times as much. And all that only after a couple of seconds. He was always astonished and said his professor said exactly what i said about the instrument.
So the fact is that an experienced ear would hear for 3 seconds what sb would need 10 years to develop himself to distinguish. Not that i am not making various instruments from about 10 years.
What i am saying, please Respect what others hear, even if you don't, cause maybe there is sth there. Sometimes may be not
, but that doesn't prove a thing. As i respect people and don't tell them that they are bloody f***ing deaf if they don't hear what i am hearing
But- people who don't hear a difference are either deaf or they don't have good enough combo...
...And yes, i hear a fly fart from 10 meters, so i am ready to slap in the face and send to an ophthalmologist anybody who says he doesn't hear the difference
The two of you need to get your story straight.
I use Caig Deoxit D100L. It is a red liquid in a small dropper bottle. The first thing you do when you get a bottle is to transfer a bit more than 1/2 of the amount into another small bottle that seals well. The dropper bottle it comes in is too narrow and falls over spilling 1/2 the contents!
I have measured the improvement this makes on connectors. It is not an instant miracle. But applying it to the plugs and jacks, waiting overnight, the next day the contact loss is less. Leaving the connectors out of the jacks for a few weeks they go back to where they started.
I find the clean contacts make more of a difference than wire type, except of course for a few really bad cables.
I have measured the improvement this makes on connectors. It is not an instant miracle. But applying it to the plugs and jacks, waiting overnight, the next day the contact loss is less. Leaving the connectors out of the jacks for a few weeks they go back to where they started.
I find the clean contacts make more of a difference than wire type, except of course for a few really bad cables.
How come audio "purists" never directly solder wires between devices? It seems to me that would ELIMINATE all connector issues.....and save a ton of money. RCA connectors were the cheapest connector design by RCA, as far as I know. I can't help but think the slight advantages from esoteric ($$$) cables would be completely swamped by the inherent weaknesses of the connectors. Does anyone else agree?
I heard (perhaps apocryphal) of a musician who had convinced himself that a certain gold battery sounded better and would only have those in his gear. The techs could not understand this and one day, not having the preferred battery, they substituted something else. The musician got mad when he found the wrong batteries so later, but he never said anything about the sound, until he knew the batteries were wrong...
People who fret about wires, batteries, other insignificant details are seemingly afflicted with some sort of OCD or neurotic perfectionism that is often more about confirming their own neuroses (like stepping on cracks, or not, affecting your day's outcome) than anything else. Wire mfg's love and depend on this, as wires are the highest margin product in the business.
“The general root of superstition : namely, that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss; and commit to memory the one, and forget and pass over the other.”
― Francis Bacon, The Collected Works of Sir Francis Bacon
People who fret about wires, batteries, other insignificant details are seemingly afflicted with some sort of OCD or neurotic perfectionism that is often more about confirming their own neuroses (like stepping on cracks, or not, affecting your day's outcome) than anything else. Wire mfg's love and depend on this, as wires are the highest margin product in the business.
“The general root of superstition : namely, that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss; and commit to memory the one, and forget and pass over the other.”
― Francis Bacon, The Collected Works of Sir Francis Bacon
There are peaks and limitations wire can only get so good. I do tend to gravitate more towards wire with more coppers in them than anything else. If one can make out a discernible difference between a 10 dollar RCA vs a 100 dollar RCA thats one thing. A 100 dollar RCA vs a 500 dollar RCA thats another. It can only get so good.
Obviously you completely misunderstand the test. If you cannot, on your own wonderful system, with your own wonderful ears, tell the difference between the original recording and a re-recording done thru mud or bananas, what possible chance will you have to hear subtle things like different metals in your connections? Believe me, the guys taking the test were quite sure of their hearing abilities and systems - before the test. Some where puzzled, others amazed or embarrassed.
You said this, but you do not understand it
I do not know what "sth" means, sorry.
Unlike many on this forum I DO believe in fine listening skills. I believe that they can be developed with practice over many years. For example, you, as a luthier, will hear all sorts of things in a guitar that I will completely miss. And one should hope so! As a video engineer and projectionist, I will see many things that you are completely unaware of. That a trained skill. That's worth money.
However, I have yet to find anyone who can tell the difference in (clean) interconnects in a blind test. Could a person be trained to? Perhaps. But what would be the point?
The two of you need to get your story straight.
Thanks, now i have a psychologist
The first one is for people who think they know everything and "insist"
The second is for humble people who are ready to hear other opinions.
Now all is clear?
So back to the question. Nobody silverplated his RCAs or something so he could shed a light? I guess it would be easier if i buy the kit and check howo it works on my amp.
I have always said the differences between certain cables can be measured but are NOT audible... I am also very aware of how signals travel.... and those that understand how signal travel are less likely to believe in the magic of cables and silver and look at boring factors such as capacitance, inductance and resistance and maybe conductance if you are getting into transmission line territory.....
As regards to connector plating you tend to have to use intermediate metals such as nickel to get a robust finish, silver is pointless it tarnishes hence why gold is used, it doesn't tarnish.
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