Hi All,
I’m new to this forum making my first post. I have been somewhat hesitant because after looking around a little bit at old posts I’m surprised how quickly replies get really rude and nasty. I was hoping to find an audio DIY forum to be very open minded community to new brave ideas and different thinking instead I find a lot of Internet trolls lurking in the shadows screaming not-scientific, snake-oil, and worse.
I have been working as an electronics engineer for almost 40 years and have had my share of “science” during my university education and all my years as an R&D engineer. Science is not an absolute truth, science is constantly challenged, reevaluated and changing. “Science” is normally the best understanding and explanations we have available for the moment. If people aren’t willing to be open to new and different thinking the science will not progress and evolve. When you practice R&D engineering every day for a working life you run into many situations where you can’t explain the results with known knowledge. Sometimes these “mysteries” are explained years later due to advancements in new measuring equipment or gained understanding in complex interactions.
The human hearing is a very complex interaction between the pressure waves reaching our body and the brain’s interpretation of the stimulus. In audio we can’t hear everything we can measure and we can’t measure everything we can hear. I’m convinced that we will find different measuring techniques in the future that will quantify things we can’t today. A wise man said that there are 120 different ways to measure an amplifier but we have only been able to come up with the first 20 so far.
The laws of physics are fixed some might say and you can’t change them. Well I say the laws of physics are an attempt to mathematically represent what is going on around us. All these representations are more or less flawed but we are continually tweaking them as we are gaining more insight and understanding.
Legends in the audio field like; Andrew Jones, Nelson Pass, Karl-Heinz Fink, Jürgen Reis all rely on measurements in their work but all of them say that different circuits and components can sound different even if the measurements can’t tell them apart. I highly respect the insight these men and others in the audio field have acquired during lifelong commitment. So all of you Internet trolls screaming snake-oil behind the keyboards that have not paid your duce with your own first hand practical experience on subjects, your input is of no interest to me.
Am I saying there isn’t snake oil in the audio business? In audio, like in any other business, there will be questionable products and people trying to make easy money at the same time as there will also be devoted, honest, hardworking people bringing you their dream product.
Some products will be priced for a small very wealthy group of people which pay more for the exclusiveness rather than for actual performance benefits. If they are paying for snake-oil and are happy, why take that joy from them? It’s not your hard earned money at stake.
“- One man's ceiling is another man's floor” – Paul Simon
I’m hoping to get in touch with people that have experience from making their own DIY power cables. My own experience with power cables for audio equipment is rather limited. I have had the opportunity to listen to a handful of different commercial cables at home in my own HiFi-system. Of them the most expensive was priced to about EUR 600. Some of them didn’t make much of a difference compared to a basic cheap EUR 5 cable, but a few of them presented a clear audible difference. It is without a doubt to me that some power cables can have an impact to the sound, something I hadn’t been able to hear for myself until a few years ago. If not better or worse so at least different. But to my belief no high-end audio power cables can justify a price tag over EUR 9 000 for me. I will rather spend that kind of money on something different. But apparently there are enough people out there buying these products to keep many manufacturers in business. And that is fine with me, but not for me.
I’m looking to make a few good sounding (see note 1) power cables for my own HiFi-system with parts for around EUR 100 / complete cable (or less). Maybe EUR 10-20 per connector and EUR 50-60 for 2 m cable, some heat shrink tubing and possibly some sleeving material. I have plenty of experience making all kinds of everyday cables for industrial applications but I have only put together a few cables for my own HiFi-system.
Have you played around and made several audio power cables and found combinations of connectors and cables that have sounded particularly good to you? Can you describe what in the sound presentation made you a believer in that ‘recipe’? Do you have any listening comparisons to other ‘commercial’ cables?
Please let me know if you are willing to share your experiences and ‘recipes’.
I’m also grateful for tips where to buy the parts.
The possible combinations of different types of cable topologies (shielded, unshielded, braided, twisted, star-quad, etc.), materials and connectors are mind blowing and not doable for one man neither in time or cost so it would be great to build upon previous testing as a starting point.
I could easily buy some high grade Furutech connectors (FI-E50 NCF (R) Schuko EUR 400 + Furutech FI-52 NCF (R) IEC EUR 430) and high grade Furutech bulk cable (DPS-4.1 EUR 500/m) but that would be a total of EUR 1 830; well over my ‘EUR 100 price range’ and I have no experience with Furutech cables so I have no clue if I would like what they do for the sound, if anything. The cheapest Furutech would still be EUR 180 (FI-E11 (Cu) Schuko EUR 45, FI-11 (Cu) IEC EUR 45, cable FP-314 Ag II EUR 45/m). If I use the cheapest Furutech connectors and cable, does it make a big enough difference to the basic cheap EUR 5 to make it worthwhile?
There are so many different manufacturer of good connectors and cables for professional and home audio use, not targeting the high-end Audiophile market, where I hope to find better price/performance ratio. But where to start? How good can I get for EUR 100? Ok, I’m not ruling out pushing the limit to EUR 200 if my ears tell me a significant difference.
I believe, but don’t know for a fact, that when you have good enough parameters for resistance, inductance and capacitance in a well-designed cable there is little to gain with exotic materials and treatments. Any benefit is hardly likely to justify the exponential increasing costs. But I would like to find out for myself, trusting my ears. Where is the sweet spot for price-performance in a DYI power cable? Is it already at EUR 10 or can it be 50, 100 or 200? I’m curious to find out for myself.
Some of you think I’m a fool, that’s your right to do so but it doesn’t make it a fact. Again I like comments from people with their own practical experience. Open your mind to new possibilities, listen, learn and be nice to those that are trying. Looking forward to read about your experiments and experiences.
Note 1:
I’m fully aware that sound impression is highly subjective and what suits some don’t fit others and the environment (EMI/RFI, power grid) the cables work in and what they are connected to makes a difference (some amps, DACs, etc. will be affected more than others by different power cables) but since there is still no way of measuring and quantify some of the differences we still can hear, the ears will have to be the judge.
I’m new to this forum making my first post. I have been somewhat hesitant because after looking around a little bit at old posts I’m surprised how quickly replies get really rude and nasty. I was hoping to find an audio DIY forum to be very open minded community to new brave ideas and different thinking instead I find a lot of Internet trolls lurking in the shadows screaming not-scientific, snake-oil, and worse.
I have been working as an electronics engineer for almost 40 years and have had my share of “science” during my university education and all my years as an R&D engineer. Science is not an absolute truth, science is constantly challenged, reevaluated and changing. “Science” is normally the best understanding and explanations we have available for the moment. If people aren’t willing to be open to new and different thinking the science will not progress and evolve. When you practice R&D engineering every day for a working life you run into many situations where you can’t explain the results with known knowledge. Sometimes these “mysteries” are explained years later due to advancements in new measuring equipment or gained understanding in complex interactions.
The human hearing is a very complex interaction between the pressure waves reaching our body and the brain’s interpretation of the stimulus. In audio we can’t hear everything we can measure and we can’t measure everything we can hear. I’m convinced that we will find different measuring techniques in the future that will quantify things we can’t today. A wise man said that there are 120 different ways to measure an amplifier but we have only been able to come up with the first 20 so far.
The laws of physics are fixed some might say and you can’t change them. Well I say the laws of physics are an attempt to mathematically represent what is going on around us. All these representations are more or less flawed but we are continually tweaking them as we are gaining more insight and understanding.
Legends in the audio field like; Andrew Jones, Nelson Pass, Karl-Heinz Fink, Jürgen Reis all rely on measurements in their work but all of them say that different circuits and components can sound different even if the measurements can’t tell them apart. I highly respect the insight these men and others in the audio field have acquired during lifelong commitment. So all of you Internet trolls screaming snake-oil behind the keyboards that have not paid your duce with your own first hand practical experience on subjects, your input is of no interest to me.
Am I saying there isn’t snake oil in the audio business? In audio, like in any other business, there will be questionable products and people trying to make easy money at the same time as there will also be devoted, honest, hardworking people bringing you their dream product.
Some products will be priced for a small very wealthy group of people which pay more for the exclusiveness rather than for actual performance benefits. If they are paying for snake-oil and are happy, why take that joy from them? It’s not your hard earned money at stake.
“- One man's ceiling is another man's floor” – Paul Simon
I’m hoping to get in touch with people that have experience from making their own DIY power cables. My own experience with power cables for audio equipment is rather limited. I have had the opportunity to listen to a handful of different commercial cables at home in my own HiFi-system. Of them the most expensive was priced to about EUR 600. Some of them didn’t make much of a difference compared to a basic cheap EUR 5 cable, but a few of them presented a clear audible difference. It is without a doubt to me that some power cables can have an impact to the sound, something I hadn’t been able to hear for myself until a few years ago. If not better or worse so at least different. But to my belief no high-end audio power cables can justify a price tag over EUR 9 000 for me. I will rather spend that kind of money on something different. But apparently there are enough people out there buying these products to keep many manufacturers in business. And that is fine with me, but not for me.
I’m looking to make a few good sounding (see note 1) power cables for my own HiFi-system with parts for around EUR 100 / complete cable (or less). Maybe EUR 10-20 per connector and EUR 50-60 for 2 m cable, some heat shrink tubing and possibly some sleeving material. I have plenty of experience making all kinds of everyday cables for industrial applications but I have only put together a few cables for my own HiFi-system.
Have you played around and made several audio power cables and found combinations of connectors and cables that have sounded particularly good to you? Can you describe what in the sound presentation made you a believer in that ‘recipe’? Do you have any listening comparisons to other ‘commercial’ cables?
Please let me know if you are willing to share your experiences and ‘recipes’.
I’m also grateful for tips where to buy the parts.
The possible combinations of different types of cable topologies (shielded, unshielded, braided, twisted, star-quad, etc.), materials and connectors are mind blowing and not doable for one man neither in time or cost so it would be great to build upon previous testing as a starting point.
I could easily buy some high grade Furutech connectors (FI-E50 NCF (R) Schuko EUR 400 + Furutech FI-52 NCF (R) IEC EUR 430) and high grade Furutech bulk cable (DPS-4.1 EUR 500/m) but that would be a total of EUR 1 830; well over my ‘EUR 100 price range’ and I have no experience with Furutech cables so I have no clue if I would like what they do for the sound, if anything. The cheapest Furutech would still be EUR 180 (FI-E11 (Cu) Schuko EUR 45, FI-11 (Cu) IEC EUR 45, cable FP-314 Ag II EUR 45/m). If I use the cheapest Furutech connectors and cable, does it make a big enough difference to the basic cheap EUR 5 to make it worthwhile?
There are so many different manufacturer of good connectors and cables for professional and home audio use, not targeting the high-end Audiophile market, where I hope to find better price/performance ratio. But where to start? How good can I get for EUR 100? Ok, I’m not ruling out pushing the limit to EUR 200 if my ears tell me a significant difference.
I believe, but don’t know for a fact, that when you have good enough parameters for resistance, inductance and capacitance in a well-designed cable there is little to gain with exotic materials and treatments. Any benefit is hardly likely to justify the exponential increasing costs. But I would like to find out for myself, trusting my ears. Where is the sweet spot for price-performance in a DYI power cable? Is it already at EUR 10 or can it be 50, 100 or 200? I’m curious to find out for myself.
Some of you think I’m a fool, that’s your right to do so but it doesn’t make it a fact. Again I like comments from people with their own practical experience. Open your mind to new possibilities, listen, learn and be nice to those that are trying. Looking forward to read about your experiments and experiences.
Note 1:
I’m fully aware that sound impression is highly subjective and what suits some don’t fit others and the environment (EMI/RFI, power grid) the cables work in and what they are connected to makes a difference (some amps, DACs, etc. will be affected more than others by different power cables) but since there is still no way of measuring and quantify some of the differences we still can hear, the ears will have to be the judge.
The are 'good engineering practices' for all types of cables. These practices (analog & power) have been known for a decade to over a half century.
- not all cables are good cables
- there are different levels of goodness, depending on length and other demands
- all well chosen good cables will sound the same (and measure about the same)
- each type of cable has it's own 'good engineering practices'
- many types of cables require big expensive machines to manufacture the bulk cable
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Hello,
Couple of other points I would mention.
1. If you are going from a good low impedance source to a high impedance load (think preamp to amp connections) then cables are far less likely to make any difference than with equipment that doesn't have good impedance design.
2. Speaker cables - low resistance has been shown to be the most important factor. Using reasonable cables (not super high capacitance or inductance) - resistance is a real factor.
3. If you have a long cable between two "units", making it half as long means there will be half as much resistance, inductance and capacitance. Don't use cables longer than needed.
Regards,
Greg
Couple of other points I would mention.
1. If you are going from a good low impedance source to a high impedance load (think preamp to amp connections) then cables are far less likely to make any difference than with equipment that doesn't have good impedance design.
2. Speaker cables - low resistance has been shown to be the most important factor. Using reasonable cables (not super high capacitance or inductance) - resistance is a real factor.
3. If you have a long cable between two "units", making it half as long means there will be half as much resistance, inductance and capacitance. Don't use cables longer than needed.
Regards,
Greg
Don't want to be pessimistic but past experience shows you are most likely to get in touch with the army of trolls here.
I use almost exclusively Furutech power cord termination and power inlets and imho you get pretty much what you pay for. The cheap connectors are much better than the generics but if you can afford them go for NCF.
Metal is a question of taste.
Try this, which most people could accept: a well-shielded mains wire of sufficient gauge for the intended current-draw may help reduce [induced] RF interference in certain situations. This doesn't have to cost much, so trying it is inexpensive. Even cheaper: add a ferrite and see if it makes any difference.
For the rest -knock yourself out if it makes you happy. Standard remarks apply as always: just make sure whatever you do adheres to your local safety requirements / guidelines. If you burn your house / apartment block down otherwise, your insurance company may not be very impressed, or the rozzers for that matter if somebody gets hurt. I mention this because 'a certain vendor' here a few years back thought it would be a good idea to make and sell mains cables using clapped out tin-plated solid core wire manufactured by WE about 60 years ago. It wasn't rated for mains use anywhere on this planet, it had a waxed cloth covering, and both in the intervening decades had, by the vendor's admission 'become very hard'. And that's just one example of such questionable practice. I could mention a dozen others. In other words: it can happen, so it's worth raising the subject, in a non-personal / non-specific manner.
As a gentle suggestion: this is a friendly place. Nice people, by and large, are to be found on diyAudio.com Making disparaging comments about fellow members with [one of] your first lengthy post isn't a particularly good way to win friends and influence people though. If you have a point or perspective you wish to discuss, great, but please make it sans ad hominem.
For the rest -knock yourself out if it makes you happy. Standard remarks apply as always: just make sure whatever you do adheres to your local safety requirements / guidelines. If you burn your house / apartment block down otherwise, your insurance company may not be very impressed, or the rozzers for that matter if somebody gets hurt. I mention this because 'a certain vendor' here a few years back thought it would be a good idea to make and sell mains cables using clapped out tin-plated solid core wire manufactured by WE about 60 years ago. It wasn't rated for mains use anywhere on this planet, it had a waxed cloth covering, and both in the intervening decades had, by the vendor's admission 'become very hard'. And that's just one example of such questionable practice. I could mention a dozen others. In other words: it can happen, so it's worth raising the subject, in a non-personal / non-specific manner.
As a gentle suggestion: this is a friendly place. Nice people, by and large, are to be found on diyAudio.com Making disparaging comments about fellow members with [one of] your first lengthy post
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No problem with really high quality audio cable but when you read subjectivism that goes into the realms of Disney fantasy and quotes of "dark sounding - very bright - very smooth - and--- "like a stream gently burbling down a valley " it kind of puts you off the reality of an electronic engineering which is the down to earth , logical ,practical basis of both designing and repairing audio equipment .
And if you think DIY Audio -quote - "is full of trolls" then D.Self whose opinion I know very well having had "words " with him on EW must be the "king of trolls" then ?
Or is he just speaking the truth ?
Every human being has their own opinion on music because ( shock/horror ) we all have different viewpoints due to personality- hearing ability-audio discrimination- shape of our ears -auditory nerves connected to the brain and so on.
But engineering is engineering and must be kept down to earth otherwise bridges collapse-buildings fall down etc causing loss of life so no matter how beautiful a bridge looks if its engineering principles are lacking then it will not sustain a viable existence.
And if you think DIY Audio -quote - "is full of trolls" then D.Self whose opinion I know very well having had "words " with him on EW must be the "king of trolls" then ?
Or is he just speaking the truth ?
Every human being has their own opinion on music because ( shock/horror ) we all have different viewpoints due to personality- hearing ability-audio discrimination- shape of our ears -auditory nerves connected to the brain and so on.
But engineering is engineering and must be kept down to earth otherwise bridges collapse-buildings fall down etc causing loss of life so no matter how beautiful a bridge looks if its engineering principles are lacking then it will not sustain a viable existence.
To create a budget DIY power cable, first choose a standard, but high quality, plug and connector
My budget (UK) choices are:
My budget (UK) choices are:
- MK Tough Plug 655
- Kaiser IEC C13 794 Connector
Attachments
Approven security properties is most important with power cables. Far more than anything else. Followed by cross section, which needs to fulfil the power demands.
As you don't have too much influence on the cabling and the components between the electrical power plant and your wall outlet, how would you expect that exactly this relatively short piece of cable between outlet and unit might impact, or even improve, your gear's sound? And - shielded power cable is utter BS.
Where's the snake oil thread gone?
Best regards!
As you don't have too much influence on the cabling and the components between the electrical power plant and your wall outlet, how would you expect that exactly this relatively short piece of cable between outlet and unit might impact, or even improve, your gear's sound? And - shielded power cable is utter BS.
Where's the snake oil thread gone?
Best regards!
Er, let's not get carried away. A power lead is a piece of wire. The last time I checked, the laws of physics / basic electrical engineering state that like any other piece of wire, it can pick up external interference, especially in longer lengths. [Far] too much can be made of this, and in most conditions it's unlikely to be an issue, but a shield, ferrite, or some other form of filter when appropriate is not in itself BS.
Now, I wonder where the OP has gone. I may be mistaken, but I think I recognise the prose style...
Now, I wonder where the OP has gone. I may be mistaken, but I think I recognise the prose style...
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Yes, an audio component's AC mains power cord can act as interference antenna (either receiving or transmitting).
But it's not a common occurrence. It requires:
a] a source of interference.
b] a cord of a length and placement to act as an antenna of that interference.
c] an audio component susceptible to that interference.
For problems like this, twisted pair or triplet cords are always a good first step.
Audio Engineering Society, Fellow (and interference expert) Jim Brown often writes about this problem.
But it's not a common occurrence. It requires:
a] a source of interference.
b] a cord of a length and placement to act as an antenna of that interference.
c] an audio component susceptible to that interference.
For problems like this, twisted pair or triplet cords are always a good first step.
Audio Engineering Society, Fellow (and interference expert) Jim Brown often writes about this problem.
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Quite so. The point is, it happens. As noted, it's not necessarily all that common, but 'uncommon' is not a synonym for 'non-existent'.
Take muggins here. For many years, lived in a house which also contained my father, who happens to be an internationally known radio ham. His gear was approximately 15ft from what passed for my audio setup. Curiously enough, he was and remains big on RFI.
Mainly self-interest to ensure quality time with his own hobby (his current pet hate are the large number of badly installed or designed solar panels in the area), but also out of common decency because he could wipe out a good portion of the street if he fired up the linear amplifier and happened to start transmitting at or near the relevant frequencies. QED. Since a piece of shielded mains wire costs about the same as a 'boutique' bag of crisps these days, and ferrite clamps can be found for tuppence-ha'penny, it's not exactly an expensive nor arduous exercise, and the benefits in RF rich environments can be worth the minimal cost and few minutes of time involved.
Take muggins here. For many years, lived in a house which also contained my father, who happens to be an internationally known radio ham. His gear was approximately 15ft from what passed for my audio setup. Curiously enough, he was and remains big on RFI.
Mainly self-interest to ensure quality time with his own hobby (his current pet hate are the large number of badly installed or designed solar panels in the area), but also out of common decency because he could wipe out a good portion of the street if he fired up the linear amplifier and happened to start transmitting at or near the relevant frequencies. QED. Since a piece of shielded mains wire costs about the same as a 'boutique' bag of crisps these days, and ferrite clamps can be found for tuppence-ha'penny, it's not exactly an expensive nor arduous exercise, and the benefits in RF rich environments can be worth the minimal cost and few minutes of time involved.Gotham Cables from Switzerland make good wire for power cables
Gotham AG - Gotham Cables - Gotham Cables English - powered by cloudrexx
Gotham AG - Gotham Cables - Gotham Cables English - powered by cloudrexx
Again: What should some feet of shielded power cord do, whereas there are hundreds of miles of unshielded cables between the power plant and the wall outlet?
Regarding ferrite rings or cores: My information is that they primarily serve to prevent RFO from getting outside the equipment?
If there are concerns regarding RFI intruding audio gear, and yes, due to gazillions of SMPS powered units and lamps, indeed there are several reasons to be concerned: I prefer to install a certified five to ten bucks apiece three pronged RFI filter into my amps etc. instead of spending tons of money for doubtful (to be euphemistic) power cords.
Best regards!
Regarding ferrite rings or cores: My information is that they primarily serve to prevent RFO from getting outside the equipment?
If there are concerns regarding RFI intruding audio gear, and yes, due to gazillions of SMPS powered units and lamps, indeed there are several reasons to be concerned: I prefer to install a certified five to ten bucks apiece three pronged RFI filter into my amps etc. instead of spending tons of money for doubtful (to be euphemistic) power cords.
Best regards!
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