I have always felt likewise. My take is that most domestic rooms have dimensions of the same order of magnitude as the LF we are trying to reproduce, in sharp contrast to large halls. I also believe that the lower frequency reverberation we hear in concert halls plays a huge part in live sound. A domestic sub flat to 20Hz or below can reproduce much of this effect.
No, i find downward slope of harman curve boring.
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As a subwoofer, the increased HD is not as audible running at under 80 ~100 hz, where in most situations 2nd order distortion components dominate. This isn't as unpleasant, as long as the odd, higher order HD is considerably lower than the 2nd order HD itself.
I'm not at all saying there aren't exceptions to my initial remark that the vast majority of woofers exhibit acceptably low 3rd order + distortion behavior, but most will be tolerable to listen to operating at lower levels of excursion, LP filtered under 100 hz and as long as the cone composition and geometry is rigid and adequately dampened.
The motor design itself doesn't play as much of a role at lower excursion levels, based on my experiences with the majority of budget priced larger (12"+) diameter drivers. You'd be rather hard pressed to identify less than several percent of 2nd order HD at typical subwoofer LP filter cutoffs.
The upper spectrum of music will mask alot of the higher order HD to start with as long as the midrange on up is handled by other drivers. IMD is potentially a far greater influence on perceived SQ.
Modulated Le can also be very audible at lower SPLs, where the bulk of offensive behavior can come from poor cone construction, when VC excursion is kept considerably lower than xmax, even on drivers using even hung motors (where the upper pole plate thickness equals VC winding length). These can possess relatively low levels of HD when operating at minimal cone excursion. In this situation, BL linearity will remain above 80% total BL, which in most cases correlates to relatively low perceivable HD at frequencies under 100 hz.
Try to play carmina burana in concert level, see if your system can handle it...
Do not forget churches, church pipe organs are acoustic instruments, at least used to be, can play 16Hz ans scramble your intestines.
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Any recommendation of which recording? There are plenty on Spotify ... all pretty different.
I also prefer a linear response at high frequencies but add some bass boost under about 100Hz. 3-5dB for studio use and even more for home Cinema.
Helps in studio to get better translation for mixes and in home cinema to have more fun 😎
I have rew. And room mode xtz analyzer...far better than rew.
I am sorry for you that 31 band is not enough.
Flat EQ on the low end sounds thin and unnatural, especially at lower playback levels, thanks to the perceived loudness curve in our hearing.
I commonly defend the notion that flat EQ doesn't sound natural. Its not even suitable for professional monitoring unless the engineer is used to working with flat FR.
Achieving a natural sounding, well balanced low end is usually where most engineers get it wrong. The vast majority of pop recordings (having the greatest level of subjective discrepancies in relative SQ) aren't mixed or mastered considering any fundamental rules of psycho acoustics. Most of the sound is based on an artistic POV rather than sonic accuracy, especially in this day and age where its considered tolerable for pop music to contain unbearably high levels of distortion and imbalance. Anything and everything appears to go here, so it tends to sound offensive to people with trained ears, especially on higher resolution playback equipment.
Speakers designed for hifi playback should sound natural and reasonably accurate. They are different in form and function to dedicated studio monitors, which should favor neutrality above everything else. Monitors should possess very little sound character, but often don't. They also should present the entire spectrum with precise time and phase relationship, so ported enclosures shouldn't be used for this application, as they negatively affect low end phase relationship.
So In reality, most larger studio monitors are acoustically colored, especially in the lower end, yet some very good recordings have been made listening to them. That's simply because people are capable of adapting to discrepancies and within reason "hearing through" their deficiencies using relative comparison. The same holds true for home hifi speakers mainly designed for personal entertainment. If you're aware of the deficiencies, you can still make relative comparisons using your own reference. You don't need absolute linearity or accuracy, which in most cases isn't very pleasing to listen to.
Here's a good example of how we perceive LF distortion relative to the full audio spectrum. This YT clip from John Mayer has distortion levels which top out well over 20% in the LF thanks to brick wall limiting and heavy compression. Most people would find this music acceptably pleasant to listen to at average volume, yet the distortion is very high across the board (borderline unlistenable for me on my highly revealing reference system). Its when you turn up the level to above 90 dB C weighted, it becomes a completely garbled mess.
Whats an even greater crime is an otherwise very competent engineer mastered this album, yet unleashed this sonic butchery onto us. Very sad.
Whats an even greater crime is an otherwise very competent engineer mastered this album, yet unleashed this sonic butchery onto us. Very sad.
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My speakers are loud enough for Carmina Burana with huge dynamic headroom, as long as the volume matches what I hear in the 37th row. 15"+CD, 98 db 1w1m, with lowest listening level about 1/8 w and 100 w/ch available. With my speakers backed against a 1" thick plaster wall, bass gain is about 6 db without equalization. I do not use any. Most material is classical where I know what the instruments are supposed to sound like. I bought my speakers because Steinway grand piano tracks sounded almost real. Distortion is plotted by Peavey at 5 w, 2nd harmonic 25 db down 70 hz - 12 khz. I listen to some pop music but distortion is part of that experience. The 1505-8kadt cone is kevlar reinforced and Xmax is 0.9 mm.
Speakers will produce 126 db @ 500 w, but I do not like it that loud. My ears buzz due to US Army damage. I managed to preserve 14000 hz high cutoff with earplugs. I wear earplugs at organ concerts when the trumpets are loosed. Bass goes right through.
16 hz cannot be heard as a tone, only a shaking feeling in the belly. I am happy to reproduce 27.5 hz, lowest piano note.
Speaking of systems with 6 or more 6.5 in drivers, I hated my friend's Bose 901s about 1978. The distortion chart post 1 may be the reason.
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Whats interesting with the audibility of very low frequencies is how they are perceived by our body's nervous system / senses and processed by our brains.
In the example of the 16.3 hz low C on a pipe organ, there is a strong fundamental frequency here with little harmonic content. Even though most people can "hear" this with their ears, they predominantly "feel" it with their gut, as our lungs and intestinal tract has air pockets which vibrate with such a low frequency. This feeling is stronger than our hearing in this case.
If you listen through a decent set of headphones to 16.3 hz, you can definitely hear it, but what you're actually prevalently hearing is the second harmonic at 32 hz thanks to the higher distortion level of the headphone's drivers at that low of a frequency. Even the best headphones have double digit distortion levels in that frequency range.
Many instruments have a higher percentage of harmonics than their fundamental frequency they reproduce. Piano, electric and acoustic bass and string instruments are like this. Our brains "fill in the blanks", giving us the perception of hearing the root note the loudest.
In the case of an electric bass, its actually the 2nd harmonic which prevails - our brain can identify the lowest note E @ 41hz on a 4 string bass playing on an AM car radio through a small speaker which can barely reproduce any low end. This is thanks to our brain's interpretation of the instrument's harmonic content faking us into hearing a lower note which in reality isn't there.
In the example of the 16.3 hz low C on a pipe organ, there is a strong fundamental frequency here with little harmonic content. Even though most people can "hear" this with their ears, they predominantly "feel" it with their gut, as our lungs and intestinal tract has air pockets which vibrate with such a low frequency. This feeling is stronger than our hearing in this case.
If you listen through a decent set of headphones to 16.3 hz, you can definitely hear it, but what you're actually prevalently hearing is the second harmonic at 32 hz thanks to the higher distortion level of the headphone's drivers at that low of a frequency. Even the best headphones have double digit distortion levels in that frequency range.
Many instruments have a higher percentage of harmonics than their fundamental frequency they reproduce. Piano, electric and acoustic bass and string instruments are like this. Our brains "fill in the blanks", giving us the perception of hearing the root note the loudest.
In the case of an electric bass, its actually the 2nd harmonic which prevails - our brain can identify the lowest note E @ 41hz on a 4 string bass playing on an AM car radio through a small speaker which can barely reproduce any low end. This is thanks to our brain's interpretation of the instrument's harmonic content faking us into hearing a lower note which in reality isn't there.
Still, one proper big woofer is better than four crappy small woofers.
You can defend whatever you want, there is a good reason loudness curve was abandoned.
Hmm, that seems counter-intuitive to me. When you look at the equal loudness curves, they are rising fast below 100 Hz. As a rough generalisation, they are rising at around 12dB per octave there. So, take a 40 Hz tone at 80 dB and a 20 Hz tone at 92 dB. They will be perceived as being equally loud. And if you have 2nd harmonic distortion of 10% on a 20 Hz tone, the harmonic will be perceived as being only 8dB quieter than the fundamental. So it will sound like 40% distortion.
No?
@adason I'm not defending the loudness curve itself. I'm simply saying flat FR sounds thin and unengaging. Everyone's ears are different and we prefer what we're used to, having acclimated to specifc tonal balance preferences.
The loudness curve itself also differs for each person. Distortion isn't as audible down low as it is around the 3 - 4k range, where you can hear 0.5% HD under specific circumstances. You'd be lucky to quantify or even hear anything under 5 - 7% HD under 80 hz. Room modes, resonances and other acoustic artifacts produced by the interaction of surrounding environmental components are overall more detrimental to perceived quality of in room LF.
The loudness curve itself also differs for each person. Distortion isn't as audible down low as it is around the 3 - 4k range, where you can hear 0.5% HD under specific circumstances. You'd be lucky to quantify or even hear anything under 5 - 7% HD under 80 hz. Room modes, resonances and other acoustic artifacts produced by the interaction of surrounding environmental components are overall more detrimental to perceived quality of in room LF.
@ianbo Your theory is in line with what I'm trying to explain. Relative vs absolute HD is the difference and I'm not trying to harp on specific orders of HD other than comparing the audibility of 2nd vs 3rd order HD, specifically how they're perceived in relation to their percentage. A given amount of 3rd order HD is far more unpleasant and noticeable than 2nd order HD.
Answering the OP's question, my opinion is that large speakers produce a "big sound", which fills the environment in a way that small speakers cannot, no matter how many tricks you use to make the cabinet "performing" (high SPL).
And if they are quality, - well-developed speakers- , the better. I think the measurements are important, FR, CSD... but that doesn't say it all, although if I had a pair of these, I wouldn't complain if it has little or a lot of distortion....😉
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm
And if they are quality, - well-developed speakers- , the better. I think the measurements are important, FR, CSD... but that doesn't say it all, although if I had a pair of these, I wouldn't complain if it has little or a lot of distortion....😉
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm
Attachments
I have found that a speaker that is EQ'd flat under anechoic conditions, sounds right (or close to right) in the low/mid/upper bass when put in a room. For most of us, the best way to measure anechoic at low frequencies is an outdoor ground plane measurement, with about 25+ feet to the nearest reflecting surface. This gives resolution down to 23 Hz.
When I listened to my speakers under outdoor ground plane conditions, they did sound "thin and unnatural" in this purely 4-pi environment.
When I make in-room measurements of this system, with multiple scans at many positions, I have bass response that is elevated by about 4 dB at 100 Hz, and almost 10 dB at 30 Hz. To my ears, acoustic instruments with deep bass content sound right; piano, harp, trombone, tuba, double bass, bass clarinet, bassoon, baritone sax, Johnny Cash, Barry White, Matti Salminen. So my experience matches up well with the explanation by @profiguy
Technically, and in an ideal world, 100% agree.
Problem is, to present the entire spectrum....means the very lowest frequencies (for all practical purposes at home levels).
The thing is, it takes minimal number crunching to realize the sealed displacement to cover the lowest end of the spectrum goes beyond feasible.....
So folks boost sealed boxes to get the low end gain. And then the boost comes from either PEQ's to avoid excessive boost at very lowest freqs like a shelf, or a LT transform, or who knows....
But point is, by the time you boost a sealed to provide level response...if you have to hpf it in any shape form or fashion, you're kidding yourself as to "sealed response" phase and group delay.
It simply takes a huge amount of "truly sealed" low end, to be any different than ported.A
An acoustic response trace says it it all... if acoustic response is the same, doesn't matter sealed vs ported vs whatever...same response / same sound.
I think this paragraph from the link I attached above may be clarifying for some, for others it will be debatable, as always.
It would be interesting to know if some here disagree, on what?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm
The sound?
Hmm... In terms of dynamics and transparency it beats anything I've made before. This even from speakers twice the building price. Price to pay is size - and weight, not to forget! I had to call in a couple of bodies to help getting the speakers to our living room. Size matters and none of these drivers have to work hard to do the SPL. The 18" bass drivers hardly moves delivering thunderous bass. The midrange is as dynamic and transparent as can be and the compression driver delivers a resolution and lack of distortion that leaves even the best of domes behind. Say no more!
Some of the design features here build on client work and one of them had a visitor claiming the sound being too dynamic! How can a speaker be too dynamic? One thing we've been very good at over the last 50 years - since the days of JBL/Altec/Klipsch and others - is killing the dynamics of reproduced music, and I guess many people have gotten accustomed to dull and lifeless reproduction or maybe never realise that most of live concert dynamics can be had at home. I fully acknowledge that most people may not want home reproduction as dynamic as live concerts.
It would be interesting to know if some here disagree, on what?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm
The sound?
Hmm... In terms of dynamics and transparency it beats anything I've made before. This even from speakers twice the building price. Price to pay is size - and weight, not to forget! I had to call in a couple of bodies to help getting the speakers to our living room. Size matters and none of these drivers have to work hard to do the SPL. The 18" bass drivers hardly moves delivering thunderous bass. The midrange is as dynamic and transparent as can be and the compression driver delivers a resolution and lack of distortion that leaves even the best of domes behind. Say no more!
Some of the design features here build on client work and one of them had a visitor claiming the sound being too dynamic! How can a speaker be too dynamic? One thing we've been very good at over the last 50 years - since the days of JBL/Altec/Klipsch and others - is killing the dynamics of reproduced music, and I guess many people have gotten accustomed to dull and lifeless reproduction or maybe never realise that most of live concert dynamics can be had at home. I fully acknowledge that most people may not want home reproduction as dynamic as live concerts.