" ... I think exemplary sound is possible with 16bit. Listen to almost anything on the GRP label, for example. These guys were all digital in the seventies. ..."
... I think exemplary sound is possible only with 24bit or better. Listen to almsot anything from EMI in Europe or ClassicRecords.com 's collection of retro 24bit/96K & 24bit/192K DVD-A discs.
And no one was "all digital" in the seventies. The microphones all connected to analog boards which in turn connected to tape recorders. The only reason digital may have crept into the mix is for effects like synthesizers and delay lines ... GRP, et al, included.
Of course this would mean you would have to abandon that tired old CD player in favor of something capable of playing DVD-A and/or SACD.
... I think exemplary sound is possible only with 24bit or better. Listen to almsot anything from EMI in Europe or ClassicRecords.com 's collection of retro 24bit/96K & 24bit/192K DVD-A discs.
And no one was "all digital" in the seventies. The microphones all connected to analog boards which in turn connected to tape recorders. The only reason digital may have crept into the mix is for effects like synthesizers and delay lines ... GRP, et al, included.
Of course this would mean you would have to abandon that tired old CD player in favor of something capable of playing DVD-A and/or SACD.
" My CDP is only ~20 years old! ..."
Replacements: http://oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp ... US$185 shipped plus applicable taxes, if any ... and it will play all that really great 24bit music that your $9000 CD player can't.
Replacements: http://oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp ... US$185 shipped plus applicable taxes, if any ... and it will play all that really great 24bit music that your $9000 CD player can't.
Hmm, I feel CDs are good enough. The sound quality available is very high indeed, although it does take a bit of investment in a good player. Sadly only about 5% of my CD collection sounds excellent. Most sound good, a few sound terrible, and below terrible there's The Scissor Sisters!!!!
Simon
Simon
I have to agree with a previous post. It depends on the man at the controls. I have several CDs of my favorite LPs and the only difference is the lack of a few pops and clicks. 
I have also captured many LPs to disk and the result is a accurate reproduction. And yes, even at 16 bits!
It's not the Digital VS Analog. It's Crap VS Quality. It's "let's make it sound loud" VS "let's make an accurate reproduction".
Both the consumer and the engineer are at fault. Personally, I would hold the engineer to higher standards. But also, most of them don't have a lot to work with. Like the poor guy that has to make Brittany Spears sound like a singer!
PS Why is C.R.A.P. not allowed. You think I had said ****!
I have also captured many LPs to disk and the result is a accurate reproduction. And yes, even at 16 bits!
It's not the Digital VS Analog. It's Crap VS Quality. It's "let's make it sound loud" VS "let's make an accurate reproduction".
Both the consumer and the engineer are at fault. Personally, I would hold the engineer to higher standards. But also, most of them don't have a lot to work with. Like the poor guy that has to make Brittany Spears sound like a singer!
PS Why is C.R.A.P. not allowed. You think I had said ****!
Oh I had quite a few disappointing CD's. It's probably due to the fact that I was there at the launch and one of, if not the first, owner of a CD player in my neighborhood. I couldn't wait to replace some of my vinyl with CD copies but I had problems with quite a few. Take for example Peter Framptons "Frampton comes alive" double LP. The CD version lacked some kind of soul compared to the vinyl, it was actually tiring to listen to so I just kept spinning the Vinyl. Tamita's "Snowflakes are Falling" is another. Just recently a friend of mine came to listen to my newly acquired Arcam CD player and we had a discussion about those who prefer vinyl to CD and of course I explained that I could understand why and showed him some examples, including Frampton's LP. After listening, he agreed that there was something wrong with the CD and suggested that some of my early CD's sounded wrong due to the incorrect amount of pre-emphasis applied, it was after all a new medium to many mastering engineers and was often badly done.
So he took away my worst CD's, returning next day with what he called a re-mastered version and they sounded great! Since then, he has corrected many of my early CD's that suffered with this loss of feel but it is nice to hear that most CD's I buy today sound OK. Not sure how he did the conversion but he says he just used a plug-in on Sony Soundforge. Still look forward to my occasional "Vinyl Evenings" though!
So he took away my worst CD's, returning next day with what he called a re-mastered version and they sounded great! Since then, he has corrected many of my early CD's that suffered with this loss of feel but it is nice to hear that most CD's I buy today sound OK. Not sure how he did the conversion but he says he just used a plug-in on Sony Soundforge. Still look forward to my occasional "Vinyl Evenings" though!
He probably used a de-emphasis plugin. It's used to remove the emphasis info. If you happen to have a DAC that doesn't support it or want to burn the disc, since burning software generally doesn't support it, it can be useful. Only old CDs have this problem as newer discs don't even use emphasis at all By the way, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you could only put or remove pre-emphasis, not put too much or not enough...
By the way, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you could only put or remove pre-emphasis, not put too much or not enough...
Oh wait, now I remember, one of the first CD's I bought when I started working, was Frank Black teeanger of the year.... what an awesome CD, it became the soundtrack to my early 20s, anyhow one day we were haveing a little party... I walk into the living room to find my friends useing CDs as frisbees... The CD had a massive crack from hitting a wall. Man was I pissed off.
Anyhow years later my wife bought me a replacement, but it was so hard to hide the dissapointment, the original was a double CD with 3 tracks on the second CD, that I loved. Amnesia was the one, I think an accoustic version of (I got me a) Headache....
Anyhow the replacement was a flat sounding single CD without the bonus tracks. Will forever be looking for a replacement it seems.
Anyhow years later my wife bought me a replacement, but it was so hard to hide the dissapointment, the original was a double CD with 3 tracks on the second CD, that I loved. Amnesia was the one, I think an accoustic version of (I got me a) Headache....
Anyhow the replacement was a flat sounding single CD without the bonus tracks. Will forever be looking for a replacement it seems.
Us and Them, Symphonic Pink Floyd.
Done by thew London Philharmonic.
I used to like their version of comfortably numb.
Then I listened on a high resolution system. Where is the treble? Where is the ambience BETWEEN the notes? It sounds like MP3 copied onto a cassette compared to a good recording.
Done by thew London Philharmonic.
I used to like their version of comfortably numb.
Then I listened on a high resolution system. Where is the treble? Where is the ambience BETWEEN the notes? It sounds like MP3 copied onto a cassette compared to a good recording.
Eric Clapton's Charity CD for his Crossroads Center @ Antigua ... bad engineering, mostly = gain set too high so there is a lot of clipping. Surprising considering its mostly solo acoustical guitar blues. (Both of the Crossroads Festival DVDs are fantastic,however = great mix down of live concerts.)
(As for Pink Floyd / Roger Waters, "The Wall" concert in no man's land in Germany just after the Berlin wall came down (1990) = best monstrous concert possible considering the crowd was greater than 1 million fans!)
(As for Pink Floyd / Roger Waters, "The Wall" concert in no man's land in Germany just after the Berlin wall came down (1990) = best monstrous concert possible considering the crowd was greater than 1 million fans!)
Better Sound CD's
I agree with all who suffer through the compression and poor techniques of the recording industry. Let me suggest a breath of fresh air; a listen to some of the offerings from REFERENCE RECORDING. You may try their sampler; I did, and immediately bought 6 of their cd's. I also highly recommend their Crown Imperial cd see referencerecordings.com
I agree with all who suffer through the compression and poor techniques of the recording industry. Let me suggest a breath of fresh air; a listen to some of the offerings from REFERENCE RECORDING. You may try their sampler; I did, and immediately bought 6 of their cd's. I also highly recommend their Crown Imperial cd see referencerecordings.com
" I also highly recommend their Crown Imperial cd see referencerecordings.com "
Fantastic resource! ... Best of the best "remastering" from original tapes ... They have yet to acknowledge or offer any 24 bit DVD-A or SACD, but do a wonderful job of boiling down "legacy" sources to quite listenable mostly red book CD.
(My OppoDigital.com '980 "universal" player does decode their "HDCD" technology, so I will be getting some of these when I can't find a DVD-A or SACD version.)
( FYI: " In 2000, Keith Johnson and Michael Pflaumer sold their HDCD patents to Microsoft ... but they have peripheral interest in audio. ... "New technologies, however, have narrowed the gap between what the recording engineer and consumer hears. Although DVD-Audio and SACD at their best can deliver high-resolution digital audio to consumers, it’s really the advent of computer-based audio and Internet downloads that will usher in the new era of high-resolution digital." ... " - from: http://www.ultraaudio.com/features/20090201.htm )
Fantastic resource! ... Best of the best "remastering" from original tapes ... They have yet to acknowledge or offer any 24 bit DVD-A or SACD, but do a wonderful job of boiling down "legacy" sources to quite listenable mostly red book CD.
(My OppoDigital.com '980 "universal" player does decode their "HDCD" technology, so I will be getting some of these when I can't find a DVD-A or SACD version.)
( FYI: " In 2000, Keith Johnson and Michael Pflaumer sold their HDCD patents to Microsoft ... but they have peripheral interest in audio. ... "New technologies, however, have narrowed the gap between what the recording engineer and consumer hears. Although DVD-Audio and SACD at their best can deliver high-resolution digital audio to consumers, it’s really the advent of computer-based audio and Internet downloads that will usher in the new era of high-resolution digital." ... " - from: http://www.ultraaudio.com/features/20090201.htm )
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