I can say without fear of contradiction and without any qualification what so ever: no, it definitely does have relevance. I can't possibly be less unambiguous.
I can't answer your other questions, but feel free to ask me different questions.
BTW, if you have some important point to make, perhaps you could just state your point of view instead of masking it as a question.
Ben
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Base on my research the threshold for 3rd harmonic non-linearity would be extremely high, somewhere around 15-20% or maybe even higher. It is likely that a pure third order non-linearity would more likely be heard as a limiting of dynamic range than distortion. We didn't test for dynamics, just distortion.
Thank you. Although your distortion research shows somewhat lower hearing threshold than I would expect in the bass region for the 3'rd harmonic non-linearities, the key is IMO the perception of dynamic range limitations due to the nature of the loudspeaker drivers and consequently scaling of the system.
It would be great if you could point to research on this subject.
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"It would be great if" there was any research on this topic. Toole, et.al. have never considered "dynamics" as an attribute of a loudspeaker. I don't know what it is exactly or how to measure, but I do accept that it is a factor. If my "perception" of dynamics is the same as others, I also have no idea. We could all be talking about completely different things. With no objective definition and hence no way to measure it, all the discussion along these lines is purely hypothetical.
PS. I have made a serious study of this issue trying to find something quantifiable, but alas, to no avail. It is likely Not thermal, I have pretty much ruled that out unless its perception is below what I could measure.
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You can check out this.
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/index...nmenu-70/239-klirrfaktor-wie-viel-ist-zu-viel
It's in German but you can always use Google Translate.
In their reviews of raw drivers, this website always relate measured distortion of different orders and at different frequencies to psychoacoustic thresholds of audibility, which is very useful.
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/index...nmenu-70/239-klirrfaktor-wie-viel-ist-zu-viel
It's in German but you can always use Google Translate.
In their reviews of raw drivers, this website always relate measured distortion of different orders and at different frequencies to psychoacoustic thresholds of audibility, which is very useful.
Thanks POOH. The method Klippel have used does not differ very much from the other methods proposed in previous posts. The only difference is that Klippel have referred to the response measured at the starting amplitude to better visualize the amplitude compression over frequency. The measurement uses isolated sinusoidal signals over the frequency band.
However, when complex signal is applied and due to amplitude modulation, the nonlinear effects will not be possible to read from such measurements.
With regards to driver nonlinearities, BL(x)/K(x) measurements is IMO by far the most precise tool we have for speaker construction. Le(x,i) comes in handy for passive crossovers. But I have not yet seen equally applicable measurement methods for verification of system performance.
However, when complex signal is applied and due to amplitude modulation, the nonlinear effects will not be possible to read from such measurements.
With regards to driver nonlinearities, BL(x)/K(x) measurements is IMO by far the most precise tool we have for speaker construction. Le(x,i) comes in handy for passive crossovers. But I have not yet seen equally applicable measurement methods for verification of system performance.
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Klippel further illustrates what a horrible conceptual mishmash "compression" is. It includes effects that occur on every cycle peak, during every cycle, and some in a time course of minutes. Some you can hear immediately as distortion and some are abstract and conceptual and only known by hypothetical comparison to some imaginary "original" sound. Some can be fixed by motional feedback and some are permanently inherent in Rice-Kellogg driver design (like voice coils getting hot).
Can't make progress without conceptual clarity and making distinctions between one kind of compression and another.
Ben
Can't make progress without conceptual clarity and making distinctions between one kind of compression and another.
Ben
My experience is that different people put different meaning to the term dynamics. If this is the same for the dynamic compression as well, I don't know.
Anyway I totally agree - "it would be great"!
My opinion is that speakers don't have dynamics. Music has dynamics that loudspeakers try to reproduce. Modern recordings often lack dynamics as part of loudness wars. I don't think the term dynamics relative to music is ambiguous at all.
Compression is relevant to music, loudspeakers and amplifiers.
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Speaking for my self, I'm not pro this or that principle as long as the system and room integrates and the system is properly made for its purpose. The two (by margin) best bass systems I have listened to uses very different principles. One is a line array slot loaded open baffle (SLOB) system using 10pcs 15" drivers pr side. The other is a Double Bass Array system I constructed for a buddy, consisting of 8 pcs 18" AE drivers in sealed enclosures pr. wall. Both systems shares many of the same qualities, have plenty of headroom and integrates perfectly into their respective rooms. Needless to say, they both brutally kicks and slams and present bass tones just as naturally as I can imagine is possible with loudspeakers (for those who believe it is not possible with dipole designs)
I have also listened to other large OB's and my own system uses four AE 18" drivers in sealed enclosures. In not so perfect environments they sound descent, but limited by their rooms.
None of the above systems have in my ears shown any sign of harshness or abnormalities when presented with music material of any specific type. The two latter have off course limited output capacity compared to the other two.
I have also experience with dipoles, sealed enclosures and bass reflex systems that sound well balanced on some material and harsh on other, depending on SPL and dynamic range of the records. These systems uses either poor components and/or their dynamic range is limited.
Fabric or no fabric surround, heavy or light cone, I don't think you should put too much into that subject. What matters more IMO is to know your components and room, and design and scale the system accordingly.
I have also listened to other large OB's and my own system uses four AE 18" drivers in sealed enclosures. In not so perfect environments they sound descent, but limited by their rooms.
None of the above systems have in my ears shown any sign of harshness or abnormalities when presented with music material of any specific type. The two latter have off course limited output capacity compared to the other two.
I have also experience with dipoles, sealed enclosures and bass reflex systems that sound well balanced on some material and harsh on other, depending on SPL and dynamic range of the records. These systems uses either poor components and/or their dynamic range is limited.
Fabric or no fabric surround, heavy or light cone, I don't think you should put too much into that subject. What matters more IMO is to know your components and room, and design and scale the system accordingly.
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