I have been on a recent mission to improve the sound of a living room hifi.
I'd previously had a set of home built KEF Calinda type speakers that I'd been running via a behringer ultradrive xover and a the power amps from a NAD home cinema set up. It was loud, lively, musical but unsubtle. Terrible soundstaging and uneven bass.
Several iterations of kit later I have a pair of ATC SCM11s, an home bulit Avondale power amp and an Audiolab 8200q preamp. Still htough, the kit sounded brash on some recordings and muffled on others. Despite the huge changes to my amps and speakers, these chararteristics have been common to all setups. So, I figure, it's the room?
Fair bet it is since the setup is textbook bad. The speakers sit against the end wall but with one in a corner and the other in the middle of the wall. Both are 'too close' to the wall even for sealed cabs. However, we have the space we have and that is where they need to sit.
So, preamble over, I bought a DRC24, UMIK1 and Dirac license from miniDSP (incredible shipping BTW, 3 days from HongKong!). It's installed in the tapeloop of the preamp so can be easily switched in/out.
I've run a single set of 13 room measurementswith fairly rough/ready mic placement and tried out four target curves. The results?
Really intersting. All recordings now sound really good. Or, at least as good as you can expect a given recording to sound (rubbish in, rubbish out and all that). Certainly, all the 'cliche' test tracks sound tremendous.
No boominess in the bass, totally consistent with no nasty resonances. A bizare 'scoop' in the bass responce from 80Hz to 150Hz is gone (I've measured this on all speakers I've tried in this room/loaction). More interesting (to me at least) is that a fatiguing 'harshness' in the upper mid band is just gone. No apparent loss of clarrity, just less tiring to listen to (especially when turned up).
The surprise was the sound staging. The speakers have vanished and, for good recordings, there is far more space around the lead instruments. It feels a bit like a surround sound feature has been added but this is absolutely not a feature of DIRAC. Apparently it simply comes from improve time allignment in all the drivers.
So, I'm a fan? I think so. There are some downsides though:
1. The miniDSP itself is not really HiFi. Stick it in bypass and you switch it in/out of the signal path in your amp and you will clearly hear it's presence. Using my turntabhle as a signal source, the tone is significantly changed. It almost allmost feels a bit 'smoothed out' (bearing in mind this is bypass so straight through the ADC - DAC and out). It's not unpleasant but there is info being lost. Basically, it has a sonic signature of its own.
2. On some true golden recordings (you know, the ones you can somehow play on any system and sound good) the DIRAC Live is too much. It can somehow suck a bit of the life out of the recording. I guess this is the case where the recording is so good that it can tolerate or maybe even 'enjoy' a bit of 'room interaction' without becoming unpleasant. Miles davis 'a kind o blue' would be a good example of this.
On balance though, I'd have to say that the gains out weight the losses. Sure, it is not a purist setup, info is definitely lost. But, unless you have perfect listenting room, the sonic impact of these losses pail into insignificance compared to the sonic imperfections imparted by the room.
In short, it's a keeper for me. For the rare recording that doesn't get on with it, I can always switch the miniDSP back out. Only thing I would change is that I wish i'd known about it earlier so I could have bough a preamp with DIRAC built in (NAD C658 for example) instead of having a preamp, riaa_preamp, streamer and miniDSP.
Hope that review is useful to someone.
Cheers,
iep
I'd previously had a set of home built KEF Calinda type speakers that I'd been running via a behringer ultradrive xover and a the power amps from a NAD home cinema set up. It was loud, lively, musical but unsubtle. Terrible soundstaging and uneven bass.
Several iterations of kit later I have a pair of ATC SCM11s, an home bulit Avondale power amp and an Audiolab 8200q preamp. Still htough, the kit sounded brash on some recordings and muffled on others. Despite the huge changes to my amps and speakers, these chararteristics have been common to all setups. So, I figure, it's the room?
Fair bet it is since the setup is textbook bad. The speakers sit against the end wall but with one in a corner and the other in the middle of the wall. Both are 'too close' to the wall even for sealed cabs. However, we have the space we have and that is where they need to sit.
So, preamble over, I bought a DRC24, UMIK1 and Dirac license from miniDSP (incredible shipping BTW, 3 days from HongKong!). It's installed in the tapeloop of the preamp so can be easily switched in/out.
I've run a single set of 13 room measurementswith fairly rough/ready mic placement and tried out four target curves. The results?
Really intersting. All recordings now sound really good. Or, at least as good as you can expect a given recording to sound (rubbish in, rubbish out and all that). Certainly, all the 'cliche' test tracks sound tremendous.
No boominess in the bass, totally consistent with no nasty resonances. A bizare 'scoop' in the bass responce from 80Hz to 150Hz is gone (I've measured this on all speakers I've tried in this room/loaction). More interesting (to me at least) is that a fatiguing 'harshness' in the upper mid band is just gone. No apparent loss of clarrity, just less tiring to listen to (especially when turned up).
The surprise was the sound staging. The speakers have vanished and, for good recordings, there is far more space around the lead instruments. It feels a bit like a surround sound feature has been added but this is absolutely not a feature of DIRAC. Apparently it simply comes from improve time allignment in all the drivers.
So, I'm a fan? I think so. There are some downsides though:
1. The miniDSP itself is not really HiFi. Stick it in bypass and you switch it in/out of the signal path in your amp and you will clearly hear it's presence. Using my turntabhle as a signal source, the tone is significantly changed. It almost allmost feels a bit 'smoothed out' (bearing in mind this is bypass so straight through the ADC - DAC and out). It's not unpleasant but there is info being lost. Basically, it has a sonic signature of its own.
2. On some true golden recordings (you know, the ones you can somehow play on any system and sound good) the DIRAC Live is too much. It can somehow suck a bit of the life out of the recording. I guess this is the case where the recording is so good that it can tolerate or maybe even 'enjoy' a bit of 'room interaction' without becoming unpleasant. Miles davis 'a kind o blue' would be a good example of this.
On balance though, I'd have to say that the gains out weight the losses. Sure, it is not a purist setup, info is definitely lost. But, unless you have perfect listenting room, the sonic impact of these losses pail into insignificance compared to the sonic imperfections imparted by the room.
In short, it's a keeper for me. For the rare recording that doesn't get on with it, I can always switch the miniDSP back out. Only thing I would change is that I wish i'd known about it earlier so I could have bough a preamp with DIRAC built in (NAD C658 for example) instead of having a preamp, riaa_preamp, streamer and miniDSP.
Hope that review is useful to someone.
Cheers,
iep
Thanks, this is very helpful.
I'm in a similar position and am thinking of either the miniDSP or the Behringer DCX 2496 driving an active bi or tri amped system in a 13 foot square room.
Did you use the regular model or the HD version of the DSP ? I wonder if that would improve on the sound signature you mention.
I'm in a similar position and am thinking of either the miniDSP or the Behringer DCX 2496 driving an active bi or tri amped system in a 13 foot square room.
Did you use the regular model or the HD version of the DSP ? I wonder if that would improve on the sound signature you mention.
I have the miniDSP DDRC24 which is basically the HD version with a built in DIRAC license. So, short of moving up to one of their really pricey boxes, I think it is as good as they get.
As to your decision, I have not A/B'd against the Behringer but I would say this. The behringer is very noisy. I ended up building -12dB of padding into the output cables to try to get the noise to be inaudible at the speakers. The mini DSP is quieter and interconnects are easier (presuming you have RCA on the rest of your gear).
I also really like the miniDSP software.
For me, I'd go with the miniDSP. If you can stretch to the DIRAC version. It's very interesting.
As to your decision, I have not A/B'd against the Behringer but I would say this. The behringer is very noisy. I ended up building -12dB of padding into the output cables to try to get the noise to be inaudible at the speakers. The mini DSP is quieter and interconnects are easier (presuming you have RCA on the rest of your gear).
I also really like the miniDSP software.
For me, I'd go with the miniDSP. If you can stretch to the DIRAC version. It's very interesting.
Hi, I'm afraid not. The tool itself does not re-test after correction and I have not 'bothered' to verify myself. This is not very scientific of me but there are two reasons:
1. Room correction takes about 30m mins all told. I have to keep my family out of the room during this time which is a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure they'd tolerate this
2. I'm very 'sold' on the effect. In my system/room you simply do not hear any peaks or troughs in the bass as bass lines move through the octave. Every note comes through clear and the 'bloom' associated with resonance is gone. It particularly helps with sub integration even if you choose not to run the sub as a separate channel.
Ultimately, I'm curious how it might measure after correction but, with limited time, I'm prepared to believe it has worked based on listening. Appreciate that is of no use to you though
Everyone has a different idea of 'HiFi'. Two, maybe helpful, observations.
1. miniDSP do now provide a multitude of solutions. I've gone for the base model which features a 'not so HiFi' ADC/DAC codec but there are higher spec models in their hardware portfolio that will also run Dirac. If you're running a purely digital setup they provide a purely digital processor that can sit before your DACs.
Dirac Series : DDRC-22D
If, like me, you listen to a lot of vinyl, then you could go for this, though it is fairly 'big bucks':
SHD - Audiophile Digital Audio Processor
It would still allow you to route digital audio direct to your DACs but also provide higher fidelity analogue paths (certainly than my DDRC model).
2. All that said, it really comes down to how much it gives vs how much it takes away. In my system (in a slightly challenging room) while the miniDSP unit does impose a certain 'sound of it's own' the overall effect is positive. I could have 'more' by spending more but there's the law of diminishing returns there as usual.
I also think it helps to put the unit in your tape loop (if you have one) since that sits before the vol control, provides a good signal level in/out and keeps you further from the noise floor of the unit (not that it is very noisy). FYI, it sounds better than my old behringer digital xover.
Last but not least, a wee update on its use. I recently built a set of small markaudio full range speakers for use with a sub.
I like full range speakers, they provide a fantastic focused soundstage but the price is always frequency response. The Markaudio units I used (10m3) are pretty good but do have a pronounced peak around 6kHz, some roll off above 10kHz and a wee bit 'missing' around 300Hz. By running the room correction software with them I was left with a really (really) good sound that has ultimately lead me to sell on my ATC SCM11s (because they now provide so little an advantage over the markaudio boxes).
Interesting to note though that you are still left with some signature of the original speakers. Possibly testament to ATC, but the room correction did 'much less' to the sound of these speakers. They still sounded like ATC, very neutral (too neutral?) and with, to my ear, an irritatingly recessed vocal. The Markaudio speakers, possibly in part due to the 6kHz peaking, have far more 'presence' and vocals leap out at you. After correction, this was still the case but it no longer became fatiguing to listen too. Ultimately, the thing I liked about the speakers was 'still there' but the harsher inconsistencies were gone.
Basically, for me, it works.
iep
Nice to read your review, I have it as well and was wondering how other people feel about it. The first thing I realized just using the test microphone was just how much the room was effecting my sub woofer. I have built 3 subsystems and was never pleased with how boomy they were, now measuring them as could see the peeks caused by the room. Then adding the room correction greatly improved my soundstage and the feeling of space surrounding the individual instruments. Since I am dabbling in learning to play guitar and produce music I can pick out a lot more detail in the recordings. Since my playback is from a digital music player imputing USB into my dac I don’t feel I am loosing much detail from processing. Overall everyone who Has listened to the system feels it is an improvement over dry sound.
Bill
Bill
Yes the DACs in the miniDSP products seem to be the weak link.
A bit of a pricey solution for home, but what we're doing at a local recording studio that I've helped sort out a monitoring environment for, is...
Use the miniDSP DDRC 88D, which is all digital with 8 in, 8 out in AES/EBU or SPDIF. We're using the AES/EBU because the recording interface in the studio has AES/EBU outs.
So we go from recording interface to miniDSP 88D via digital. Then out of the 88D into an 8 channel DAC. We're using the Okto Research DAC8, Okto Research
I don't understand why miniDSP doesn't either make a pro version with top notch DACs or why they don't sell a pro quality DAC to match with the all digital products. But there are alternatives, so no biggie.
Then out of that into amps/speakers.
Of course an equally important (maybe more) aspect is to get the room acoustics treated correctly first. You can't "fix" a standing wave in your room with DSP.
So get your room right first. Then use the DSP to balance and correct what comes out of your speakers, and optionally for Xovers. If you have speakers that are reasonably flat, matched with a good sub, in a good room, the DSP can tweak it all to be very very good.
For the studio it's great, since the DSP unit has 4 profiles that can be switched easily (we're using the infrared remote) and we have main and nearfield monitors with subs. We can switch between mains, mains+subs, nearfields, and nearfields+subs. Each of those profiles is corrected to the room.
gabo
A bit of a pricey solution for home, but what we're doing at a local recording studio that I've helped sort out a monitoring environment for, is...
Use the miniDSP DDRC 88D, which is all digital with 8 in, 8 out in AES/EBU or SPDIF. We're using the AES/EBU because the recording interface in the studio has AES/EBU outs.
So we go from recording interface to miniDSP 88D via digital. Then out of the 88D into an 8 channel DAC. We're using the Okto Research DAC8, Okto Research
I don't understand why miniDSP doesn't either make a pro version with top notch DACs or why they don't sell a pro quality DAC to match with the all digital products. But there are alternatives, so no biggie.
Then out of that into amps/speakers.
Of course an equally important (maybe more) aspect is to get the room acoustics treated correctly first. You can't "fix" a standing wave in your room with DSP.
So get your room right first. Then use the DSP to balance and correct what comes out of your speakers, and optionally for Xovers. If you have speakers that are reasonably flat, matched with a good sub, in a good room, the DSP can tweak it all to be very very good.
For the studio it's great, since the DSP unit has 4 profiles that can be switched easily (we're using the infrared remote) and we have main and nearfield monitors with subs. We can switch between mains, mains+subs, nearfields, and nearfields+subs. Each of those profiles is corrected to the room.
gabo
If I'm not mistaken, all MiniDSP products are limited to 96KHz. You generally want to avoid downsampling in your chain. The data loss is unrecoverable. You'll have much more headroom, improved handling of aliasing, reduced distortion as DACs work better at higher rates, improved DSP for similar reasons, and potential for a cleaner sound all by keeping your source rate. Whether that's 96KHz or 768KHz... As soon as you connect any MiniDSP product your ceiling is always 96KHz and all that extra data is lost forever.
I'm sure there's a debate to follow over whether or not 96KHz is enough. Who cares if human hearing is limited to 20KHz... etc. Devices are inherently different. And the spirit of audiophile is not to be destructive to the source.
With that said, I'm not an "audio scientist" so I welcome any corrections.
I'm waiting on an Okto Research DAC8 Pro and a Okto Research DAC8 Stereo.
I'm sure there's a debate to follow over whether or not 96KHz is enough. Who cares if human hearing is limited to 20KHz... etc. Devices are inherently different. And the spirit of audiophile is not to be destructive to the source.
With that said, I'm not an "audio scientist" so I welcome any corrections.
I'm waiting on an Okto Research DAC8 Pro and a Okto Research DAC8 Stereo.
Maybe you can measure and EQ your bass. A multi-sub application as well would be even better.
At higher frequencies a solution that doesn't rely on dirac type room correction techniques would be superior. Sometimes this means modifying speakers acoustically, which isn't everyone's cup of tea.
There is a digital-only version of the Dirac-enabled miniDSP, so one could use that with an external DAC. I am seriously considering that.
Jan
The internal processing in the 8 channel digital only DDRC-88D is 48kHz. So the 192kHz signal you feed in is first downsampled to 48kHz.. processed as 48kHz.. then converted back to the source 192kHz. I don't know for a fact how MiniDSP is treating the data, but these operations are generally destructive...
MiniDSP makes the argument that despite any losses... a properly room corrected system at 48kHz is more relevant than listening to 768kHz raw.
That also means that 48kHz is the ceiling. Any audio source you have with higher sampling won't make it across the chain.
I'd love to see the DDRC-88D tested.
I don't know where it says the internal processing is at 48Khz. But I'm sure you know, just curious as to where it shows that.
The only info I see on the 88D just says.
"Processor: 32-bit floating-point Analog Devices SHARC DSP
Input/Ouput resolution: 24 bits
Dirac V3 support
Matched sample rate clocked to first input channel (e.g. 192kHz in, 192kHz out)"
I don't think the studio I work at does much (if any) at 192Khz. I think most of it is 48 and some at 44.1.
I can't hear the difference between 192k and 48K as long as the DAW's plugins do upsampling, which most everything does these days. But then again, I'm old, so my hearing is not what it used to be
The problem I've had with the miniDSP DACs hasn't been digital sampling noise, it's just been analog noise/hiss and it sounds bad. To my ears it just sounds dull and lifeless, more an analog problem than a digital one.
I don't really have the equipment to do a proper test, but to me the 88D along with the okto DAC8 sounds great.
gabo
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It may be marketing, but having first hand experience with Dirac Live, I am inclined to support this. It really is of a different, and much larger, order than the subtle differences between sample rates or DACs.
Jan
I just did some initial measurement with Dirac Live (software only version with 14 day free trial license) vs. Yamaha YPAO with my Lowther Fidelio and Quad Z-1. You can find the results (verified with REW measurement) at the bottom of my little blog https://homeaudio.jimdofree.com/ . Dirac Live made a fantastic job in my very problematic room. Especially the Lowther Fidelio result is stunning from measurement and listening perspective and it doesn't kill the good sides of the Lowthers. So I am also now looking for a long term Dirac license solution, software only license, miniDSP with Dirac support or one of the new affordable AV Receivers from Onkyo, Pioneer or perhaps even NAD with DIRAC support. Currently I tend to go for the Pioneer vsx-lx305 elite, which should be available soon in germany too. Unfortunately this would mean to retire my otherwise loved Yamaha R-N803D Class A/B and go for a Class D amp (where 7 of the 9 channels will never get used), but the Dirac Live enhancement is so significant that I cannot ignore it. I hope the AV Receiver or miniDSP based Dirac Live implementation will perform similar to the software only version.
I’m happy to read it went so well. I’m going to be taking that plunge soon myself. Can’t you use the DDRC-24 and still use your regular amp? Ooorrrr it’s an integrated - the you couldn’t.
I’ve got separate preamp and amps, so the ddrc is going to sit after the preamp and before the power amps. My preamp doesn’t have a sub out, so it’s going to handle that too.
I was chatting to a friend of mine and he pointed out that if I don’t send a full range signal to my main floor standers, they will be able to play much louder. The sub will handle the low stuff. I’m excited for that too.
Can you use only part of your integrated? Does it have a pre-out you could put into a separate power amp? Then the minidsp could sit between integrated and power amp.
I’ve got separate preamp and amps, so the ddrc is going to sit after the preamp and before the power amps. My preamp doesn’t have a sub out, so it’s going to handle that too.
I was chatting to a friend of mine and he pointed out that if I don’t send a full range signal to my main floor standers, they will be able to play much louder. The sub will handle the low stuff. I’m excited for that too.
Can you use only part of your integrated? Does it have a pre-out you could put into a separate power amp? Then the minidsp could sit between integrated and power amp.