Re: Much ado about nuthin ...
I didn't bash anyone - you should look at yourself trying
to bash me! I stated my view of 'open baffle' bass and
fellows with low self exteem like you came out of the
woodwork to protect their 'BELIEFS" by 'standing on the
shoulders' of this backward technology that lends itself
to low output, low sensitivity, low efficiency, over
excursion, and high distortion bass.
I on the other hand did not copy someone else's theory
(stand on the '"shoulders of bigger men" LOL) and did
my own thing that is better sounding with higher
output, higher sensitivity, higher efficiency, less excursion,
lower distortion, and probably better room integration
than the 'believers' bass belief. Put that in your pipe
and smoke it.
Rudolf said:
I didn't bash anyone - you should look at yourself trying
to bash me! I stated my view of 'open baffle' bass and
fellows with low self exteem like you came out of the
woodwork to protect their 'BELIEFS" by 'standing on the
shoulders' of this backward technology that lends itself
to low output, low sensitivity, low efficiency, over
excursion, and high distortion bass.
I on the other hand did not copy someone else's theory
(stand on the '"shoulders of bigger men" LOL) and did
my own thing that is better sounding with higher
output, higher sensitivity, higher efficiency, less excursion,
lower distortion, and probably better room integration
than the 'believers' bass belief. Put that in your pipe
and smoke it.
I agree with all this if he is going to use 2 bass drivers - one at 60 cycles or higher is pushing it in my experiance - I'd also bi-amp, and maybe run the mid up on a large open baffle - Kinda like what that fellow Thorsten that posts her does. - Biamping will clean up the sound (no inductors, better crossover control, more headroom, lower distortion, higher playback levels, ect......)- it could end up sounding fantastic. Problem is even on a BIG baffle the Beyma might not do much below 300 cycles without eq (driving the speaker into distortion).....
johninCR said:
BTW, JohninCR,
I just re-read your initial response to DarkOne, I think the system I posted above is very similar to what you were describing. I chose multiple sm dia. drivers to keep the baffle width reasonable and shape simple. Plus they were cheap! The KEFs very high Qts (its a ceiling speaker!) requires almost no eq. It shows very little rolloff down to 120-150hz. The Audax have 4mm xmax, so bas output is decent. Won't shake the house, but reasonable for most of my music taste/listening levels. Plus the're going upstairs to the rear of the theater. My music mains are Orion clones (aka distortion boxes). Those are plenty loud, even without the Rythmik Servosubs, which remain off 90% of the time.
Cheers,
AJ
KEF
I just re-read your initial response to DarkOne, I think the system I posted above is very similar to what you were describing. I chose multiple sm dia. drivers to keep the baffle width reasonable and shape simple. Plus they were cheap! The KEFs very high Qts (its a ceiling speaker!) requires almost no eq. It shows very little rolloff down to 120-150hz. The Audax have 4mm xmax, so bas output is decent. Won't shake the house, but reasonable for most of my music taste/listening levels. Plus the're going upstairs to the rear of the theater. My music mains are Orion clones (aka distortion boxes). Those are plenty loud, even without the Rythmik Servosubs, which remain off 90% of the time.
Cheers,
AJ
KEF
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I think the best thing I can do today is to dismount drivers from my Cantons and put them to some baffle (for first tests maybe from carton board)
BTW: As you mentioned Audax. These are great drivers (even if they are not pro drivers) and they are not expensive. So, it's time to take first compromises
BTW: As you mentioned Audax. These are great drivers (even if they are not pro drivers) and they are not expensive. So, it's time to take first compromises
DarkOne,
for testing as you implied with your Canton woofers, I would strongly suggest mounting them on a wood baffle wide enough for the drivers, then add (in all directions) cardboard to experiment with your baffle shapes.
Cheers,
AJ
for testing as you implied with your Canton woofers, I would strongly suggest mounting them on a wood baffle wide enough for the drivers, then add (in all directions) cardboard to experiment with your baffle shapes.
Cheers,
AJ
Guys, I've split off some mostly irrelevant carping. Unfortunately, the excision is a hastly one.
Keep to the subject at hand, not to one another's habits, proclivities, or endowments. This is Loudspeakers, not curing cancer- no need to get emotional.
Karlson on bass
Hi Magnetar
How low will a Karlson K12 go? And a K15? I am moving into a much smaller place, so low bass (below 40Hz or so) will just excite room modes too much. The speakers will also have to stand right against the rear wall. I was thinking of using a Karlson K12 (or a K15 with a 12" driver in it) to get the punch in the bass I want. The front baffle will just be extended further up and be used to load a Goodmans Axiom 201 in an open-baffle config (with an Aurum Cantus GSi2 tweeter in it's own box on top). I like your quasi-dipole idea 😀 , but I just won't have the space to implement it.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Deon
PS. Where can I go to the the latest pics of your current set-up. I am really curious. 😉 😀
Hi Magnetar
How low will a Karlson K12 go? And a K15? I am moving into a much smaller place, so low bass (below 40Hz or so) will just excite room modes too much. The speakers will also have to stand right against the rear wall. I was thinking of using a Karlson K12 (or a K15 with a 12" driver in it) to get the punch in the bass I want. The front baffle will just be extended further up and be used to load a Goodmans Axiom 201 in an open-baffle config (with an Aurum Cantus GSi2 tweeter in it's own box on top). I like your quasi-dipole idea 😀 , but I just won't have the space to implement it.
Any suggestions?Thanks,
Deon
PS. Where can I go to the the latest pics of your current set-up. I am really curious. 😉 😀
Deon,
Don't let Magnetar scare you off from the dipole idea. Keep in mind that he demands a very high output system and that's where the distortion he talks about comes into play (extreme excursion). Using the Behringer unit plus one of the Beyma's, a tweeter on top, and a pair of 12"s for bass fill will result in a fine OB speaker especially in your small room.
Don't let Magnetar scare you off from the dipole idea. Keep in mind that he demands a very high output system and that's where the distortion he talks about comes into play (extreme excursion). Using the Behringer unit plus one of the Beyma's, a tweeter on top, and a pair of 12"s for bass fill will result in a fine OB speaker especially in your small room.
Hi John
Thanks for the reply. 🙂 I have long been a fan of open-baffle, and no-one will scare me of off them. 😉 However the driver that I want to use I can only get a single pair of (Philips Bombardon), and they are lowish Q (0.29 - 0.3) so that W/O some EQ compensation they will not really work on an open-baffle. Add to that the fact that they will have to stand hard up against the rear wall, and I don't think that OB will work in this instance. 🙁 I am thinking of Karlson because I can then load the drivers into a low Q reflex/Karlson which might suit that type of placement better. I might even go for sealed (if the Karlson will reach low enough). My mid-range (from about 100Hz and up) will be OB (the Axiom 201s). If you have any ideas please let me know.
😀
My preferred system will be top go OB all the way down to 30Hz - 40Hz, and ELF below that, but in this case it will not work. Later on when I can afford them I might buy a pair of Madison X21 drivers and load them into OB cabinets for bass. That should be good enough for bass down to the low 30 Hz, but will have to wait.
Enjoy,
Deon
Thanks for the reply. 🙂 I have long been a fan of open-baffle, and no-one will scare me of off them. 😉 However the driver that I want to use I can only get a single pair of (Philips Bombardon), and they are lowish Q (0.29 - 0.3) so that W/O some EQ compensation they will not really work on an open-baffle. Add to that the fact that they will have to stand hard up against the rear wall, and I don't think that OB will work in this instance. 🙁 I am thinking of Karlson because I can then load the drivers into a low Q reflex/Karlson which might suit that type of placement better. I might even go for sealed (if the Karlson will reach low enough). My mid-range (from about 100Hz and up) will be OB (the Axiom 201s). If you have any ideas please let me know.
😀 My preferred system will be top go OB all the way down to 30Hz - 40Hz, and ELF below that, but in this case it will not work. Later on when I can afford them I might buy a pair of Madison X21 drivers and load them into OB cabinets for bass. That should be good enough for bass down to the low 30 Hz, but will have to wait.
Enjoy,
Deon
Deon,
I'm sorry, I was thinking you were the original poster. FWIW, I'm using an FE206E on OB without EQ (Qts .18), so low Q drivers can work. I believe it's just a matter of finding bass fill drivers with a highish Q that go high enough so a 1st order low pass on the woofer section makes for a seamless integration.
In fact, if you plan to go with no EQ, a lower Q main driver may provide a smoother response because baffle size is far less critical and you can contour your response to have the first dipole null at a much higher frequency where your off center driver position will have a far greater smoothing effect on response. Then you can utilize the rising response of your helper woofer section up to the peak at "d"=1/2 wavelength to your advantage, so your 1st order low pass gives you a relatively flat response and the first null above that point helps cross to the main driver.
I think that trying to accomplish the same thing with a higher Q driver will prove more difficult just like trying to use a very high Q driver is much more tricky to get the baffle size just right.
I'm sorry, I was thinking you were the original poster. FWIW, I'm using an FE206E on OB without EQ (Qts .18), so low Q drivers can work. I believe it's just a matter of finding bass fill drivers with a highish Q that go high enough so a 1st order low pass on the woofer section makes for a seamless integration.
In fact, if you plan to go with no EQ, a lower Q main driver may provide a smoother response because baffle size is far less critical and you can contour your response to have the first dipole null at a much higher frequency where your off center driver position will have a far greater smoothing effect on response. Then you can utilize the rising response of your helper woofer section up to the peak at "d"=1/2 wavelength to your advantage, so your 1st order low pass gives you a relatively flat response and the first null above that point helps cross to the main driver.
I think that trying to accomplish the same thing with a higher Q driver will prove more difficult just like trying to use a very high Q driver is much more tricky to get the baffle size just right.
Re: Karlson on bass
Hello, I tune my Karlsons to work best 50-300 cycles because I use subwoofers. I can't imagine any open baffle system really outperforming them from 100 cycles down. If you tune the box with a long port and a .28 to .35 QTS 15" driver (along with the wall placement) surely they will get into the 30's with authority. The Karlson is still KING in my book with a drum kit for PUNCH and live feel it in your body percussion without smear or distortion. Sure a couple of BIG horns will compete but you got to have the room for them. The system you suggest will probably be supremo if you can get the mid down below 250 cycles - that's where the Karlson starts loosing it's appeal and the response gets really bumpy. I recommend using at least 20 watts with a Karlson and the more the better.
DeonC said:Hi Magnetar
How low will a Karlson K12 go? And a K15? I am moving into a much smaller place, so low bass (below 40Hz or so) will just excite room modes too much. The speakers will also have to stand right against the rear wall. I was thinking of using a Karlson K12 (or a K15 with a 12" driver in it) to get the punch in the bass I want. The front baffle will just be extended further up and be used to load a Goodmans Axiom 201 in an open-baffle config (with an Aurum Cantus GSi2 tweeter in it's own box on top). I like your quasi-dipole idea 😀 , but I just won't have the space to implement it.
Thanks,
Deon
Hello, I tune my Karlsons to work best 50-300 cycles because I use subwoofers. I can't imagine any open baffle system really outperforming them from 100 cycles down. If you tune the box with a long port and a .28 to .35 QTS 15" driver (along with the wall placement) surely they will get into the 30's with authority. The Karlson is still KING in my book with a drum kit for PUNCH and live feel it in your body percussion without smear or distortion. Sure a couple of BIG horns will compete but you got to have the room for them. The system you suggest will probably be supremo if you can get the mid down below 250 cycles - that's where the Karlson starts loosing it's appeal and the response gets really bumpy. I recommend using at least 20 watts with a Karlson and the more the better.
Hi Magnetar
That is what was hoping. The XO will be set at about 100Hz. The Goodmans can get that low on the OB w/o too many proiblems.
Just a few Qs about your Karlsons if you don't mind. 😀
1. I see you use a slanted front baffle ISO the woofer baffle being slanted. Is your cabinet the standard height (i.e. 33"), or is it shorter? If the cabinet is the normal height, then your Karlson slot will be longer than the standard slot. This might help in the lower frequencies.
2. Do you think a pair of 12" drivers will work in a cabinet like yours? The reason I am buying the Philips Bombardon 12"-ers is because I (later on) want to use them with a Philips AD5200M in a single mono speaker (for all my 78 RPM records and old mono Decca FFRR records and the like).
3. Do you make any mods to the design? I don't see the internal shelf (just above the woofer) in your cabinets.
4. Have you ever thought of bracing the slotted panel? I heard (and it makes sense) that it improves the low-end definition. Any ideas?
5. Last question for now. 😀 What reasonably priced 15"-ers can you suggest? Eminence maybe? I am not sure if the Madison drivers are low Q enough (albeit that they are priced very well).
Thanks,
Deon
That is what was hoping. The XO will be set at about 100Hz. The Goodmans can get that low on the OB w/o too many proiblems.
Just a few Qs about your Karlsons if you don't mind. 😀
1. I see you use a slanted front baffle ISO the woofer baffle being slanted. Is your cabinet the standard height (i.e. 33"), or is it shorter? If the cabinet is the normal height, then your Karlson slot will be longer than the standard slot. This might help in the lower frequencies.
2. Do you think a pair of 12" drivers will work in a cabinet like yours? The reason I am buying the Philips Bombardon 12"-ers is because I (later on) want to use them with a Philips AD5200M in a single mono speaker (for all my 78 RPM records and old mono Decca FFRR records and the like).
3. Do you make any mods to the design? I don't see the internal shelf (just above the woofer) in your cabinets.
4. Have you ever thought of bracing the slotted panel? I heard (and it makes sense) that it improves the low-end definition. Any ideas?
5. Last question for now. 😀 What reasonably priced 15"-ers can you suggest? Eminence maybe? I am not sure if the Madison drivers are low Q enough (albeit that they are priced very well).
Thanks,
Deon
Hi John
Thanks for being patient with me. 🙂
Thanks,
Deon
Yes, and of good enough quality. 😀
Run that by my again... slowly... 😕 I understood about half of what you said there, but still remain horribly confused. I think I might have an idea of what you are talking about, but I am not very technical. I do use Thorsten's XL Baffle and have noticed the nulls you are talking about. Are you saying that this can be better used (ITO XO points) with a lower Q driver? What about the low bass? WO EQ the low bass will be all but missing. Sorry if I am not keeping up to you.
How so? Is it more affected by the size? Why? Again you lost me.
Thanks for being patient with me. 🙂
Thanks,
Deon
I've been looking for drivers suitable for OB bass, but found nothing. My final thoughts are about using Jordan JX54 mounted on open baffle and Seas L26RFX/P for bass in closed box with eq. Crossover point would be at 400Hz (12 or 24dB/oct LR).
I'm just not sure about integration of open baffle mid-treble and closed box woofer.
Maybe it seems like I changed the faith, but I must make compromises
I'm just not sure about integration of open baffle mid-treble and closed box woofer.
Maybe it seems like I changed the faith, but I must make compromises
Re. integration of open baffle mid-treble and closed box woofer
Hi there
Compromise by going for aperiodic bass. This can be done either by using Scan Speak Flow resistance vents (I can tell you how to DIY something similar if you're interested), or by building an open baffle with a difference. Build a normal floorstanding box, but leave the back off. Then damp the rear wave of the woofer by hanging many carpet underfelt 'curtians' behind it. This will be a cross between OB and aperiodic.
Enjoy,
Deon
PS.
Hi there
Compromise by going for aperiodic bass. This can be done either by using Scan Speak Flow resistance vents (I can tell you how to DIY something similar if you're interested), or by building an open baffle with a difference. Build a normal floorstanding box, but leave the back off. Then damp the rear wave of the woofer by hanging many carpet underfelt 'curtians' behind it. This will be a cross between OB and aperiodic.
Enjoy,
Deon
PS.
There are MANY out there. What are the qualities you were looking for and found lacking???
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