It was in the mail today, doing "smart tv" duty. Compared to the one that was there, it seems clear, watching news.
This thing doesn't have a usb input, but neither does my other cheap TV dac. Trying a movie with robust sound track, let's see....
Russellc
This thing doesn't have a usb input, but neither does my other cheap TV dac. Trying a movie with robust sound track, let's see....
Russellc
A little brash. I guess I shouldn't complain, it cost 20 bucks, and my "signal" right this minute is pretty weak. First a roku box on amazon music, then to samsung tv Lord knows what internals, squeezed through an optical port into this little gizmo. Not to mention the PS is the usb on the back of the TV.
On the other hand, the 3 knobs on my preamp cost more and it does work. I would do a "comparison" to the Avantree twenty something dollar dac that was doing this tv duty. But I'm not sure what that would serve
It will be doing tv duty for a while. Since it doesn't have a usb input I can't try it on laptop as is. Is there a way to feed it from laptop? I've seen usb to an rca little converter box, but whether this would work without further messing up things or not work at all, I have no idea.
It's a decent tv rig, seems a little drier than the other cheap TV dac....maybe it needs to run a bit...a good bath and a power supply.
Inexpensive fun,
Russellc
On the other hand, the 3 knobs on my preamp cost more and it does work. I would do a "comparison" to the Avantree twenty something dollar dac that was doing this tv duty. But I'm not sure what that would serve
It will be doing tv duty for a while. Since it doesn't have a usb input I can't try it on laptop as is. Is there a way to feed it from laptop? I've seen usb to an rca little converter box, but whether this would work without further messing up things or not work at all, I have no idea.
It's a decent tv rig, seems a little drier than the other cheap TV dac....maybe it needs to run a bit...a good bath and a power supply.
Inexpensive fun,
Russellc
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Thanks for posting your experiences! Well, at least it converts to analog =)
Regarding replacements for USB, some computers (MAC, at least some of them), have an optical out INSIDE the little analog jack output. So that means an optical cable, with a jack at one of the ends, will be sufficient. That means galvanic separation from the computer as well. I have not tried this, but it is a possibilty. Another would be to opt for a USB->SPDIF converter. But many of those probably cost too much compared to the DAC.
Regarding replacements for USB, some computers (MAC, at least some of them), have an optical out INSIDE the little analog jack output. So that means an optical cable, with a jack at one of the ends, will be sufficient. That means galvanic separation from the computer as well. I have not tried this, but it is a possibilty. Another would be to opt for a USB->SPDIF converter. But many of those probably cost too much compared to the DAC.
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Check out this link: Hama ODT Toslink 3.5 mm adapter - Kabler og adaptere til TV og bilde -
Elkjop
There you can see that the tip of the mini jack, has a optical head. Fancy, hidden, digital in analog!
Don’t know how well it works though. And you probably would need to change some audio out settings on your computer, possibly also having to throw ASAPI out of the equation. A world of compromises. Ahhh, would’nt it be nice if analog was as practical as digital.
Elkjop
There you can see that the tip of the mini jack, has a optical head. Fancy, hidden, digital in analog!
Don’t know how well it works though. And you probably would need to change some audio out settings on your computer, possibly also having to throw ASAPI out of the equation. A world of compromises. Ahhh, would’nt it be nice if analog was as practical as digital.
Btw, very good DACs from Bryston, having a ton of inputs and input possibilities, can also be had for medium amounts of money right now. According to Stereophile, they were top notch at launch. Probably not nearly as good as «the one and only» Pass DAC, but possibly cheaper in the used market.
Bryston BDA-1: should be had for +/- 400 dollars. New: approx 2500,-. I have owned this. Very good.
Bryston BDA-2: Should be had for between 700-1000 used.
Both are good. BDA-1 apparently having the upper hand in analog feel.
If I can’t find anything nearly as versatile or equvalent price vs performance ratio, I might just lend back the BDA I sold and test it. When the time comes. But I think they have opamps =S
Bryston BDA-1: should be had for +/- 400 dollars. New: approx 2500,-. I have owned this. Very good.
Bryston BDA-2: Should be had for between 700-1000 used.
Both are good. BDA-1 apparently having the upper hand in analog feel.
If I can’t find anything nearly as versatile or equvalent price vs performance ratio, I might just lend back the BDA I sold and test it. When the time comes. But I think they have opamps =S
For a USB solution, has anyone tried the Focusrite Scarlett series, for example,
the Solo or 2i2? In addition as a dac, you can use it for measurements:
Howto - Distortion Measurements with REW
the Solo or 2i2? In addition as a dac, you can use it for measurements:
Howto - Distortion Measurements with REW
The sound quality of converters for project studios at that price range is more similar than different in my experience. They are all great for the price due to very competitive market. The difference you would probably notice is USB driver stability and sound quality from headphone out. Scarlett seems to have a good reputation, but I would recommend to check the overall reputation and the driver stability for your computer (OSX/WINDOWS) at Gearslutz or some other pro audio forum.
The Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 works fine for me. Very stable both on Mac and Windows + sounds good, although the Abacus-Aroio I mentioned early sounds more musical.
I had an old FiiO laying around to try.
This seems to very good:
MacBook Air - > USB Bolt to HDMI converter -> HDMI to smart TV (Vizio in my case) - > FO from Vizio to FiiO Taishan -> B1 Korg -> Sony VFET ->TQWT
Works well with Disney plus, etc.
Cheers
This seems to very good:
MacBook Air - > USB Bolt to HDMI converter -> HDMI to smart TV (Vizio in my case) - > FO from Vizio to FiiO Taishan -> B1 Korg -> Sony VFET ->TQWT
Works well with Disney plus, etc.
Cheers
I am not really sure why the rpi was brought into the game, but if you want it, then my experience here after trying more than 10 DACs.
First of all, its not only the voltage from the pi, that kills all quality, but also its very bad i2s output. If you consider using a rpi, then you HAVE to buy a reclocker. Ian‘s implementation is high end, but i also had some nice experince with the allo kali reclocker (feeding it with an analog psu, in my case ecs design charge transfer psu).
To the DACs themselves : Please simply forget ALL pcm51xx based DACs. All DACs you mentioned sound very grainy, distorted and digital in the higher frequencies. Some of them, like the piano, have a usable mid range, but far from high end. All of them lack a good bass. The pcm51xx chips are meant for mid range devices like mp3 players and TVs, but not what you want it to deliver. Its PLL based clocks are a problem as many other things (whole output stage). It sounds VERY digital if you are used to DACs based on pcm63 or tda1541s and alike.
From all rpi DACs i found only one resonably priced (dam is a bit pricey and needs a lot more parts to achieve its full potential, like high end psus). It was the DIAL DAC, by a user from the forum here (LaxanErde). It uses the pcm1793 ic and a Burr brown opamp based Output stage. You can also buy a linear psu from him that is very nice and also a linear psu for the rpi. The pcm1793 has a nice jitter rejection. So even without a reclocker it was enjoyable. Smooth sounding and not so flat and digital as all pcm51xx implementations i tried. The instruments have a seperation and dont sound smeared into each other like on the hifiberry (yes, even the one with on board clocks sounds bad). It was nice without, but what you want is this DAC WITH a reclocker. I also own a pcm1794a and pcm63 DAC and the Dial DAC comes very close to this two if reclocked properly. In the last weeks im building ryans D3 DAC based on the tda1541a in sim mode and nos with tube output, but this is another quality leap. If you want to use something like this, you get really nice quality (i love the tda1541 🙂 ).
So before buying a raspberry pi DAC, consider something else or go the reclocker/linear psu path or you will have a bad, digital, distorted sound.
One more experience with the pi. Forget pi4. Its higher frequencies and emi / rfi emissions are very problematic. Best rpi for sound remains the rpi 3b with disabled wifi and bluetooth.
For anyone considering the dial DAC, my experience was like this : Buy the DACs soldered, it was a pain to solder it myself. The small smd parts made it really hard to get it right. The psu was no problem. Here i would buy the kit and solder myself, all tht parts, very easy to solder.
First of all, its not only the voltage from the pi, that kills all quality, but also its very bad i2s output. If you consider using a rpi, then you HAVE to buy a reclocker. Ian‘s implementation is high end, but i also had some nice experince with the allo kali reclocker (feeding it with an analog psu, in my case ecs design charge transfer psu).
To the DACs themselves : Please simply forget ALL pcm51xx based DACs. All DACs you mentioned sound very grainy, distorted and digital in the higher frequencies. Some of them, like the piano, have a usable mid range, but far from high end. All of them lack a good bass. The pcm51xx chips are meant for mid range devices like mp3 players and TVs, but not what you want it to deliver. Its PLL based clocks are a problem as many other things (whole output stage). It sounds VERY digital if you are used to DACs based on pcm63 or tda1541s and alike.
From all rpi DACs i found only one resonably priced (dam is a bit pricey and needs a lot more parts to achieve its full potential, like high end psus). It was the DIAL DAC, by a user from the forum here (LaxanErde). It uses the pcm1793 ic and a Burr brown opamp based Output stage. You can also buy a linear psu from him that is very nice and also a linear psu for the rpi. The pcm1793 has a nice jitter rejection. So even without a reclocker it was enjoyable. Smooth sounding and not so flat and digital as all pcm51xx implementations i tried. The instruments have a seperation and dont sound smeared into each other like on the hifiberry (yes, even the one with on board clocks sounds bad). It was nice without, but what you want is this DAC WITH a reclocker. I also own a pcm1794a and pcm63 DAC and the Dial DAC comes very close to this two if reclocked properly. In the last weeks im building ryans D3 DAC based on the tda1541a in sim mode and nos with tube output, but this is another quality leap. If you want to use something like this, you get really nice quality (i love the tda1541 🙂 ).
So before buying a raspberry pi DAC, consider something else or go the reclocker/linear psu path or you will have a bad, digital, distorted sound.
One more experience with the pi. Forget pi4. Its higher frequencies and emi / rfi emissions are very problematic. Best rpi for sound remains the rpi 3b with disabled wifi and bluetooth.
For anyone considering the dial DAC, my experience was like this : Buy the DACs soldered, it was a pain to solder it myself. The small smd parts made it really hard to get it right. The psu was no problem. Here i would buy the kit and solder myself, all tht parts, very easy to solder.
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For digital from Nelson, shouldn't you be looking for something like this ?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/335134-pass-d1v33-spencer-fet-audio.html#post5725663
Patrick
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/335134-pass-d1v33-spencer-fet-audio.html#post5725663
Patrick
If price is not a problem, yes of course. Then go with a proper implementation of either pcm63, pcm1704, ad1865 or tda1541a. This r2r DACs sound sweet and if implemented right, they are for my ears better than most newer designs.
I only wrote my experiences, because i saw people here in thread calling cheap rpi dacs good sounding. It would be a waste to use cheap pcm51xx dacs with pass amps.
So you believe raspberry pi, not talking about their DACs, just the mini computer itself is flawed for simple streaming?
My interest in Raspberry pi is an educational one as I have little understanding of the whole streaming thing and what is required to stream in terms of hardware. Not the dac at this point....
I bought the Fiio Taishon for the same reason. With it and RP, my understanding of how all this goes together is a little more clear..harboring no thoughts that it is at pass level.
On the other hand, when I see a commercial streamer, and here I am only considering ones WITHOUT dac, that is north of 1000 dollars my BS meter goes off the scale.
How can a simple stripped down computer tasked with streaming a signal to a dac cost more than a fully loaded laptop/desktop PC?
Maybe there is a good reason and I just haven't learned enough to get to clear. DACS, I can see worlds of differences, my question is how much difference does the part that is just streaming the signal make?
Maybe more than I am thinking, which would be fine.
What I do know is that I can build something to stream music to a DAC that isn't going to be that expensive.
Raspberry pi is way cheap, and makes it easier to learn. Once I'm there, I can upgrade the whole mess. In researching this, many have written that they went down this road, some still with RP as stream source, others drifted to other systems, either commercial or using Intel NUC over RP, saying improvement in sound...I don't know if this improvement was simply what was doing the streaming, or a change in DAC.
I would like to get to the bottom of it and RP will let me get there cheapest. Then changes will be made where necessary.
Any comment about improved sound quality on the streaming end, (not the DAC end) would be very, very welcome.
I could be wrong and certainly have been before, but I'm having hard time believing there is a big difference in what is doing the streaming duty...
Russellc
My interest in Raspberry pi is an educational one as I have little understanding of the whole streaming thing and what is required to stream in terms of hardware. Not the dac at this point....
I bought the Fiio Taishon for the same reason. With it and RP, my understanding of how all this goes together is a little more clear..harboring no thoughts that it is at pass level.
On the other hand, when I see a commercial streamer, and here I am only considering ones WITHOUT dac, that is north of 1000 dollars my BS meter goes off the scale.
How can a simple stripped down computer tasked with streaming a signal to a dac cost more than a fully loaded laptop/desktop PC?
Maybe there is a good reason and I just haven't learned enough to get to clear. DACS, I can see worlds of differences, my question is how much difference does the part that is just streaming the signal make?
Maybe more than I am thinking, which would be fine.
What I do know is that I can build something to stream music to a DAC that isn't going to be that expensive.
Raspberry pi is way cheap, and makes it easier to learn. Once I'm there, I can upgrade the whole mess. In researching this, many have written that they went down this road, some still with RP as stream source, others drifted to other systems, either commercial or using Intel NUC over RP, saying improvement in sound...I don't know if this improvement was simply what was doing the streaming, or a change in DAC.
I would like to get to the bottom of it and RP will let me get there cheapest. Then changes will be made where necessary.
Any comment about improved sound quality on the streaming end, (not the DAC end) would be very, very welcome.
I could be wrong and certainly have been before, but I'm having hard time believing there is a big difference in what is doing the streaming duty...
Russellc
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My 2 cents;
Whatever computer you chose, RPI, laptop or something else there are three major things that needs to be taken into consideration.
1. You want bit perfect output, no resampling etc. One solution is to use an operating system like Volumio or Moode
2. You want to get rid of jitter caused by the clocks in the computer. A reclocker solves that as mentioned before.
3. You do not want crap from switch mode voltage converters, processor and so on into your DAC. Some kind of galvanic isolation solves this. I use the WaveIO USB to I2S that has isolated I2S output.
If you have these things sorted the choice of computer gets less critical since you correct the weak points later in the chain and a Raspberry Pi will do fine.
Whatever computer you chose, RPI, laptop or something else there are three major things that needs to be taken into consideration.
1. You want bit perfect output, no resampling etc. One solution is to use an operating system like Volumio or Moode
2. You want to get rid of jitter caused by the clocks in the computer. A reclocker solves that as mentioned before.
3. You do not want crap from switch mode voltage converters, processor and so on into your DAC. Some kind of galvanic isolation solves this. I use the WaveIO USB to I2S that has isolated I2S output.
If you have these things sorted the choice of computer gets less critical since you correct the weak points later in the chain and a Raspberry Pi will do fine.
This is why the Elac discovery DS-S101-G is awesome - no bloody computer needed.
You do need a wired ethernet connection close to where you plan to use it or install one.
You control it with either a phone or tablet.
You get a free roon life subscription.
You essentially get the dac for free.
You do need a wired ethernet connection close to where you plan to use it or install one.
You control it with either a phone or tablet.
You get a free roon life subscription.
You essentially get the dac for free.
If you reclock the i2s signal, then the little rpi is very well suited for streaming purposes. There is very nice software available, that for me functions better than most ready to go streamers. Its also very easy to setup, i tested volumio, moode and squeeze lite. All of them are very good and offer outstanding support by a large community.
Bit perfect or not is not the question, as long as you reclock. After the reclocker the i2s signal gets recreated upon two crystals (for 44,1 and 48 multiples), so the signal is bitperfect after the reclocking.
Dont get me wrong, the pi can be a very good streamer at a very low price, but you should know what to buy to achieve this and not just use a hat dac that shares the rpi power. This would sound awful. For high quality you need a linear psu and if your dac does not offer high jitter rejection, then also a reclocker.
Bit perfect or not is not the question, as long as you reclock. After the reclocker the i2s signal gets recreated upon two crystals (for 44,1 and 48 multiples), so the signal is bitperfect after the reclocking.
Dont get me wrong, the pi can be a very good streamer at a very low price, but you should know what to buy to achieve this and not just use a hat dac that shares the rpi power. This would sound awful. For high quality you need a linear psu and if your dac does not offer high jitter rejection, then also a reclocker.
Yes, of course i bet its nice. You use a linear psu with very good regulator (lt3045). The digione sig costs more than my whole streaming setup 😉 (without the DAC). But its worth the price, i know. It uses very good clocks with low jitter and isolation.
But you need an external DAC, so i went the i2s way and use a r2r DAC from the past, i just like this chips.
Did you try if there is a difference between the rpi 3 and 4 ? In my setup the rpi4 creates so much emi, that i need to put it behind a grounded screen or i can measure its emi all over the sound system.
Which PSU is this ? Looks very interesting with multiple linear outputs and the lt3083 for the pi itself.