An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
pcX USD Price: $699.95
Yes, those are the ones..! You might as well buy a pair now, you will need them
OK. I get it. Get the good tubes from the start and save frustration and money. Gulp.
I've been carefully reading through the early posts and see the synergy of all the tubes is critical. Do you have any updates about the best tubes to go with the Full Music 2A3/SE please? Thanks very much for sharing all your hard won experience with us so generously.
Also thanks to Peter for bringing his Tram2 around to my place so I could get hooked. It was one of the most exciting audio experiences Ive enjoyed.
Desmo 30th September 2012, "I will play a bit with rectifiers and mu tubes again. For now I use NOS RCA rectifier and a NOS Cunningham 6AS7. This combination is the most transparent and clean sounding of the tubes I have. The NOS Svetlana rectifiers and mu tubes I have are a bit fuller and warmer sounding. I will try these together with the 2A3/SE soon..."
Morten - thats very intriguing. I wonder which Svetlana model number tubes they are and how they sound. Thanks.
Morten - thats very intriguing. I wonder which Svetlana model number tubes they are and how they sound. Thanks.
Kazap (Hugh), at your place, I changed the NOS Rogers 5U4G for a NOS 1960s Black plate Svetlana 5U4G (5U3S, 5C3S) tube. Currently with the NOS Brimar (USA made) 45 ST tube, the Rogers 5U4G tube sounded better. Maybe a combination of the NOS Svetlana 5U4G and 6AS7G per Morten's findings would be good to try. The joys of ebay to find hard to get tubes.
Peter
Peter
Thanks for the link to the 6AS7 reviews... I'm not sure how the findings from the review will translate into the Tram II where these tubes are actually not in the signal path...
In my system I now use the Russians and the Chinese With the Full Music 2A3/SE I feel that the NOS Russian rectifiers and Mu tubes are a little bit better math. They might be a little bit more laid back, a little bit darker sounding and they don't have the ''sparkle'' in the treble as the other tubes, but they sound very coherent together with the 2A3/SE. In comparison the NOS RCA and Cunningham tubes can be a bit too much, a bit more forward and sparkling in the treble. This is not ''night and day differences'', just relatively small differences, and it really comes down to system matching, not that one is clearly better than the other - In my opinion.
The NOS Russian tubes are the Svetlanas that are all over e-bay for nearly no money. The rectifiers are 5U3C and the 6H13C are the 6AS7 replacement.
In my system I now use the Russians and the Chinese
With the Full Music 2A3/SE I feel that the NOS Russian rectifiers and Mu tubes are a little bit better math. They might be a little bit more laid back, a little bit darker sounding and they don't have the ''sparkle'' in the treble as the other tubes, but they sound very coherent together with the 2A3/SE. In comparison the NOS RCA and Cunningham tubes can be a bit too much, a bit more forward and sparkling in the treble. This is not ''night and day differences'', just relatively small differences, and it really comes down to system matching, not that one is clearly better than the other - In my opinion.The NOS Russian tubes are the Svetlanas that are all over e-bay for nearly no money. The rectifiers are 5U3C and the 6H13C are the 6AS7 replacement.
Thanks very much for clarifying those tubes.
With the DHT output tube choices go a friend highly recommends by the EML 45 solid plates. He says the 45's are better then the 2A3s in his Tram2 but I think he's been stymied with the Version1 heater regulators.
Has anyone compared the EML45's to any 2A3 tubes?
The qustion has been raised many times, can't really remember if anyone ever answered it. I'm not going to either
I have not hear the EML 45's, but I have made enough 45 - 2A3 comparisons in the Tram II that I will no longer even bother with 45's... Compared to good 2A3's they are simply too boring (IMHO)... The 45's are nice, coherent etc etc... But where did the drama and live feeling go..!? The good thing about the 45's is, that they run cooler...
Also, a friend of mine is a very skilled tube audio designer / repair person / audio dealer. He sells (or sold, because he stopped) both EML and KR tubes. He had a pair of KR 2A3 solid plates sitting on the shelf, I wanted to buy them from him, but he ''strongly advised me not to''. He recommended me the TJ / Full Music instead (that he does not sell).
In his opinion the reliability of the KR and EML tubes (made the same place according to him) is not very good. And the sound is -again according to him- no where near as good as the TJ / Full Music with the carbon anodes (C and SE versions). He is one of the most talented and experiences ''tube guys'' that I know, so I listen to him. That's why I got myself a pair of 2A3/SE instead of a pair of EML or KR
I have not hear the EML 45's, but I have made enough 45 - 2A3 comparisons in the Tram II that I will no longer even bother with 45's... Compared to good 2A3's they are simply too boring (IMHO)... The 45's are nice, coherent etc etc... But where did the drama and live feeling go..!? The good thing about the 45's is, that they run cooler...
Also, a friend of mine is a very skilled tube audio designer / repair person / audio dealer. He sells (or sold, because he stopped) both EML and KR tubes. He had a pair of KR 2A3 solid plates sitting on the shelf, I wanted to buy them from him, but he ''strongly advised me not to''. He recommended me the TJ / Full Music instead (that he does not sell).
In his opinion the reliability of the KR and EML tubes (made the same place according to him) is not very good. And the sound is -again according to him- no where near as good as the TJ / Full Music with the carbon anodes (C and SE versions). He is one of the most talented and experiences ''tube guys'' that I know, so I listen to him. That's why I got myself a pair of 2A3/SE instead of a pair of EML or KR
Last edited:
QUOTE=Desmo;3302499].....That's why I got myself a pair of 2A3/SE instead of a pair of EML or KR [/QUOTE]
Well I'm after an exciting sound so will definitely be getting 2A3's - in fact I already got a pair of alleged NOS RCA JAN VT-95 2A3 off eBay in anticipation of getting a Tram2. I realise they might be very disappointing with noise in a Tram2 but Im taking that risk. Hopefully the military spec might raise the long odds that they will be quiet. If not I'll just use the Music First 2A3SE and benefit from all your trials.
I wonder if I need to install the Coleman regulators when the Version3 regulators can handle the 2A3 load reliably? Has anyone updated the Version3 regulators to the Coleman and heard a difference? Thanks. Being so inexperienced I really appreciate the guidance.
Well I'm after an exciting sound so will definitely be getting 2A3's - in fact I already got a pair of alleged NOS RCA JAN VT-95 2A3 off eBay in anticipation of getting a Tram2. I realise they might be very disappointing with noise in a Tram2 but Im taking that risk. Hopefully the military spec might raise the long odds that they will be quiet. If not I'll just use the Music First 2A3SE and benefit from all your trials.
I wonder if I need to install the Coleman regulators when the Version3 regulators can handle the 2A3 load reliably? Has anyone updated the Version3 regulators to the Coleman and heard a difference? Thanks. Being so inexperienced I really appreciate the guidance.
Last edited:
Yep, I also bought two pairs of those RCA tubes... None of them really work in the Tram II (maybe I was just unlucky)... With some of them I have hum, with others there is so much microphonics, that they are useless.
Regarding the DHT regulators: To my knowledge the circuit in the new V.3 regulators is the same, as in the previous versions, only the cooling capacity is upgraded (I might be wrong, but it looks like this from the pictures)... Meaning, that the increase in sound quality with the Rod Coleman regulators should the same. And again (I know I keep repeating myself): This is the biggest sonical improvement I have yet made..! Bigger than going from standard tubes to the 2A3/SE, bigger than any cap upgrade or what ever one can make. The improvement in sound with those regulators is massive... And as a bonus, the noise is gone too...
The difference in sound quality is not because of cooling area, it's because the Rod Coleman regulators uses a totally different technology.
Regarding the V.3 regulators that now come with the Tram II, then I'm positive that the preamp will now run stable with those. Because the only reason for the problems with earlier versions was, that the heatsinks got too hot when using 2A3's. Look back in the thread, there is loads of info and discussions on this...
So to your question: No, you don't need the Rod Coleman regulators to have the preamp run stable. You need them if you want the best sound...
Last edited:
I should have asked you first before buying them.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I wonder if you got the actual VT-95 military versions? I hadnt seen anyone mention the VT-95 so thought it was worth a punt:
"the VT-95 look just like the 2A3 but they sound very different... being more focused with sharper imaging while pushing music to the back of the stage and allowing vocals to move to the front...music has wider dynamic range, good detail and impact. Precise but still relaxed..." EDITED.
Obviously that description has nothing to do with the Tram2 but is intriguing. Time will tell.
Thanks - will definitely install the Rod Coleman Regulators then. They are also very affordable making them great value.
Morten, Im also wondering if I should try your Dueland CAST mod but the expense is a hurdle for me. Are there any other capacitors that come really, really close in sound quality; or are the CAST's out in a class of their own? Thanks again.
The VT stands for:
vacuum tube
n. Abbr. VT
An electron tube from which all or most of the gas has been removed, permitting electrons to move with low interaction with any remaining gas molecules
This was a second World War US Miitary designation for tubes used in their equipment. Even today, the US Military will procure parts/spares from the OEM at large quantities and have their own Part No. designation. The part manufactured has to be to a specification desigated by the US Military. The specification might require the 6DJ8 plates for example to be extremely closely matches for it's peice of equipment to operate within it's operational parameters. Since the Tube Manufacturers in their hay day made tubes to high tolerances with materials that would withstand higher voltages, they would just restamp the civilian tube Part No. to a Military Part No. VT or CV designation. Most of the time the tube will have both the Civilian and Military Part No. on the tube. The VT or CV tube most of the time was nothing special. Only when the manufacture was required to produce a close tolerance tube, then it was special. That's all.
vacuum tube
n. Abbr. VT
An electron tube from which all or most of the gas has been removed, permitting electrons to move with low interaction with any remaining gas molecules
This was a second World War US Miitary designation for tubes used in their equipment. Even today, the US Military will procure parts/spares from the OEM at large quantities and have their own Part No. designation. The part manufactured has to be to a specification desigated by the US Military. The specification might require the 6DJ8 plates for example to be extremely closely matches for it's peice of equipment to operate within it's operational parameters. Since the Tube Manufacturers in their hay day made tubes to high tolerances with materials that would withstand higher voltages, they would just restamp the civilian tube Part No. to a Military Part No. VT or CV designation. Most of the time the tube will have both the Civilian and Military Part No. on the tube. The VT or CV tube most of the time was nothing special. Only when the manufacture was required to produce a close tolerance tube, then it was special. That's all.
Thanks for clarifying that but at least if we buy VT designations we know its origins were at least a factory tested and selected tube for superior performance, with the normal designation possibly lower performing and re-badged possibly even worse. Maybe.
Hugh, you still pay for the special selected tubes. Unfortunately with tubes, if you get into what is the best tube for your audio equipment, you could purchase many tubes to find the right one for your audio system. It ends up to be the synegy. With tubes you can fine tune your sound. It my take several attempts to get it right. It's all time, effort and of course money. It's people like Desmo who are an extremely knowledgable and helpful to put you on the right track.
Peter
Peter
I'm no tube expert, so I can't tell if VT-95 are different than other. What I have learned is to stop reading all the nonsense on the Internet (well knowing that I participate myself). I have learned, that the only way to learn is to experiment by buying a lot of different tubes and/or to listen to friends with experience whom you trust. I have tried both, the first way is the most expensive, brings up the number of tubes sitting in the box with your spare tubes. The second way, listening to friends, is cheaper and the result is tubes that works and sound good...
I looked in my tube box, and I do have a pair of VT-95. I was told, that they are identical to other RCA 2A3 double plates. They also look 100% the same in their internal structure and they sound the same. Non of these really work in the Tram II though (two are extremely microphonics, two results in hum. The hum can be fixed with grounded metal containers over the tubes, but I don't want that). The sound is OK, you can read my impression of them here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diy-hifi-supply/191572-tram-2-45-tubes-3.html I think that they are almost as good as the better current production tubes like Treasure and the JJ's that Bjarne uses. But since the RCA cost the same (or more) then I see no point in using them since they are so unreliable...
Why pay for something old and unreliable, when you can reliable tubes for the same money, that sounds better..? Personally I believe the answer is the ''storytelling'' about NOS tubes being SO MUCH better, and new production tubes from China being SO BAD... Well, if hearing is believing, then that is not true (for me). I'm done spending money on NOS triodes for the Tram II...
Regarding the caps... Again: It has been asked and answered several times during the tread. So please read and find the answers, otherwise we keep filling up the thread with the same again and again... The short answer though: Upgrade the output cap first, that gives the biggest improvement compared to the input caps, and the 2,2uF tinfoil Obbligatos needed are not that expensive...
I looked in my tube box, and I do have a pair of VT-95. I was told, that they are identical to other RCA 2A3 double plates. They also look 100% the same in their internal structure and they sound the same. Non of these really work in the Tram II though (two are extremely microphonics, two results in hum. The hum can be fixed with grounded metal containers over the tubes, but I don't want that). The sound is OK, you can read my impression of them here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diy-hifi-supply/191572-tram-2-45-tubes-3.html I think that they are almost as good as the better current production tubes like Treasure and the JJ's that Bjarne uses. But since the RCA cost the same (or more) then I see no point in using them since they are so unreliable...
Why pay for something old and unreliable, when you can reliable tubes for the same money, that sounds better..? Personally I believe the answer is the ''storytelling'' about NOS tubes being SO MUCH better, and new production tubes from China being SO BAD... Well, if hearing is believing, then that is not true (for me). I'm done spending money on NOS triodes for the Tram II...
Regarding the caps... Again: It has been asked and answered several times during the tread. So please read and find the answers, otherwise we keep filling up the thread with the same again and again... The short answer though: Upgrade the output cap first, that gives the biggest improvement compared to the input caps, and the 2,2uF tinfoil Obbligatos needed are not that expensive...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Last edited:
I'm done spending money on NOS triodes for the Tram II...me too thanks to you... Music First 2A3SE next
Upgrade the output cap first, that gives the biggest improvement compared to the input capsgot it thanks very much for all your help
Hugh, next is to place an order for a Tram2 with eight extra Obbligatos 2.2uf Tinfoil caps. You can find these caps at Obbligato 2.2uf/250vdc Tinfoil/film Coupling Cap | Diy HiFi Supply
Peter
Peter
thanks Peter.. I appreciate that precise info that a beginner like me needs
Ive been looking at installing the Rod Coleman Regulators so here's some ideas I hope might help you a little with your installation designing:
Rod Coleman recommends using the chassis side wall as the heat sink as per the photo below and writes:
"If the chassis is made from 3mm thick Aluminium, or thicker, and exposed to he outside air, the performance will be excellent. To test this claim, a regulator was set up to supply ... filaments running 3.3A, mounted on some scrap 3mm Aluminium, 275mm x 100mm ..... The high power heater can operate with this heatsink indefinitely, and only reach about 45 deg C.....
Temperature Effect. You will notice that the current falls back a little after 5 - 20 minutes. This is because of the temperature coefficients in the transistor junctions, and the sense resistor. Use better heatsinking if you wish to minimise the difference between cold turn-ON current & steady-state level."
I think the design rationale in using the chassis side wall as the heat sink for the Regulators is brilliant as
a. its simple
b. it will tend to transmit heat out of the case compared to mounting heat sinks under the tubes
c. it might minimise any stray electrical fields from affecting the tubes/wires and thus aid in keeping the noise floor lower?
I wonder if this installation into the Tram2 chassis can be optimised via:
a. removing the epoxy paint on the chassis inner side wall to achieve a smooth raw aluminium exposed surface to maximise heat conduction transfer
Either mounting the transistors using heat conducting tape
OR better still: screwing the transistors into the side wall if you have a deft touch so as not drill though the chassis (perhaps wind tape around the drill to build up a 2mm wide collar allowing a safe drill depth 1mm shorter then the case thickness).
Use a copper shim for best heat transfer between the transistor and chassis and plenty of Thermal conducting CPU paste between all surfaces.
b. sticking heat insulation tape to the inner chassis wall adjacent to the transistor mounting; with the aim of minimising heat transmission back inside the case
c. optionally sticking heat sink fins on the outside of the case (if you don't like the look or they don't drop temperature appreciably just pull them off)
4. Put aluminium shielding on the inner side of the regulators to minimise stray electrical fields and further minimise radiant heat transfer - the fins of that linked heatsink will need to be flattened back with a hammer leaving just the top fins as a mounting base to the underside of the top plate. The inner vertical surface should have the thermal-electrical insulation tape glued to it.
Please let me know if any of this is mistaken? I haven't actually tried it and I am just a beginner.
Cheers
Hugh
Attachments
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.