I believe you, but who asks the end customer what they prefer? has there been any clinic study's made? (serious question).
Well once we get gravity and inertia under control then perhaps we can take a shot at the four wheels thing, but until then no.
Meanwhile there are numerous well known alternatives to bass reflex, and in my personal opinion and experience better alternatives with regards to experience, the downside is that they usually require more effort and are more expensive.
Do not take this personally, my issue is with the industry conformity, design choices and the (lack of) experience I feel that brings, not the one that tells me why that is (you), thanks for dropping some insight, keep it coming.
Do you mean those little upper-bass horn shapes like Altec "Voice of the Theater" or even the mini-horn-like Cornwallis from Klipsch (I think that's the model), not Klipschhorn horns? Klipschorn excepted, not sure any of those horn-shaped speakers had true horn action (no more than does the phony-named "TH").
The Altec was a BR (or something resembling that) for the lower bass, or at least as low as that speaker would go.
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The Klipsch Cornwall (PWK chose the name as a contraction of corner/wall) has a 15" K-33-E direct radiating bass driver in a reflex enclosure. The La Scala and now discontinued Belle Klipsch models have 15" K-33-E bass drivers loaded by relatively short "compromised mouth" horns.
Attachments
Serious answer: yes.
They have "voted with their wallet" meaning that after a certain date they switched to BR.
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Bass horns WERE available, they were being used and sold, then one by one they were abandoned in favour of BR type cabinets.
State of the art Market Research, producing what is being chosen by users.
I have been making MI amplifiers and speakers for Stadium playing and touring bands since 1969 , not having a PA company of my own but both operating hired systems and in general being asked to provide Audio and Live Sound advice, and closely following PA systems evolution, not only as just said but also because available PA directly influenced my designs.
As in: with a poor PA system, you needed large amps on stage; with PA evolution you "might" use matchbox sized stuff, and reamplify as needed.
And followed the full journey, from lots of 4 x 12" columns (so zero bass and limited/ugly treble) to A7 type "half horn/half BR" to huge stacks with a continuous stage width side by side line of large horns (what you seem to miss) to all-in-one large BR cabinets such as Claire Brothers S4 to line arrays who declined to provide Bass in exchange of narrow tall flown size and relying on floor mounted lots and lots of very high power BR to get it which about sums up the current situation.
Your opinion 🙂 and quite a few think the same, but not all , by any means.
Large horns are ... ummm .... LARGE and that is unavoidable, complicating transport big time.
there was a path leading to that "conformity", nobody was held at gunpoint to choose BR over other options.
IF you have a long boring evening, search for live shows from different eras andn check for yourself.
Starting with 50´s Elvis Presley plugging his microphone into Guitar Player´s Guitar amplifier, because it provided better sound than House PA 😱 to Frank Sinatra´s Vocal Master to Beatles struggling at Shea Stadium to .....
Do not misstake end customer for end user, as I see it the end customer pays for an expirience, the end user provides it, I'm a typical end customer when I pay for concert tickets, and thereby also pay the end user, and latley I have been found wanting when it comes to soundquality, especially in the lower frequency range where my expiriences tells me that the typical bassreflex/linearray setups simply does not deliver, sure you get great coverage and massive sub, but the impact and definition is not there, it takes away alot from the expirience, last time it was a kara/ks28 setup.
The customer (the Artist or band) has a contract with the contract promoter or sound provider directly. The contract has a "sound rider" that specifies their requirements.
Most of the riders specify "X" number of 18" drivers for a given venue capacity, assuming they are in bass reflex cabinets.
A sound provider using horn loaded cabinets would have to convince the artist's representative, who may have little sound knowledge, that half the amount of drivers may put out more SPL or sound better, or whatever.
When a sound provider is competing with others that can provide exactly what the rider asks for, they are at a disadvantage when trying to convince them that what they ask for is "wrong", and there is no financial incentive to make sales more difficult.
As JMFahey wrote, "bass horns WERE available, they were being used and sold, then one by one they were abandoned in favour of BR type cabinets."
And Ben, those bass horns varied from VOTT, 4560 hybrid BR/Horn to FLH with a FC anywhere from 30 Hz up to 80Hz, most commonly "W" bins with around 60 Hz Fc in singles, though even those could put out loads of 40Hz when used by the dozens.
Martinsson, "impact and definition" are often hard to come by in large venues, regardless of the type of cabinets used- often the beats per minute, instrumentation, mix and song arrangement has more to do with that than anything else. All those aspects have changed in concert sound over the last 50 years too, and many of those changes not for the positive as far as "impact and definition".
Art
Its the most bang for buck....least amount of design effort for the widest useable frequency response per square ft....outside of SQ
The main SQ differences live under the Schroeder frequency where the average person has no idea whats going on.... Mainstream establishment somewhat allows the sound engineering industry to "slack" as well...though those who care easily go for sealed and transmission line...which makers of both style cabinet are doing well in the sound engineering industry.
How does one even use a bass horn? XD I designed one (front loaded with sealed rear) in HR for a sub and I got way too much pattern flip in the phase to make a nice flat line on the FR after crossover....
In my own personal design I keep having thoughts of "what if" I just port it and tune it to say 22hz or 18hz...I made a whole post about how I think bass reflex or any vented sub should be tuned like a horn (1/2 desired system cutoff)...I've never had a powerful sealed system before so I have no plans of changing right now, but the +4db or so of gain I'd get with that low tuning and light damping...the huge dip in excursion place right at the bottom....seems like it makes sense to me.
The main SQ differences live under the Schroeder frequency where the average person has no idea whats going on.... Mainstream establishment somewhat allows the sound engineering industry to "slack" as well...though those who care easily go for sealed and transmission line...which makers of both style cabinet are doing well in the sound engineering industry.
How does one even use a bass horn? XD I designed one (front loaded with sealed rear) in HR for a sub and I got way too much pattern flip in the phase to make a nice flat line on the FR after crossover....
In my own personal design I keep having thoughts of "what if" I just port it and tune it to say 22hz or 18hz...I made a whole post about how I think bass reflex or any vented sub should be tuned like a horn (1/2 desired system cutoff)...I've never had a powerful sealed system before so I have no plans of changing right now, but the +4db or so of gain I'd get with that low tuning and light damping...the huge dip in excursion place right at the bottom....seems like it makes sense to me.
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That is true, BR has it's advantages, but some other types sound better. In the dj world horn subs are still king. That is the reason why Function One and Void Acoustics are so popular and are often explicit demanded by the promotors or dj's of that kind of events. And in more niche genres where bass is fundamental, they make their own systems. UK dub, Jungle and underground dubstep (not the mainstream variation) use almost only horns, scoops, folded horns and lately more and more tapped horns. Bass Reflex can't keep up with their demands.
But for the mainstream p.a. world, economy and uniformity is more important, and most of the crowd they serve does not care, as long as there is bass...
Indeed! At the brand new Atlanta Stadium [1965], I paid a budget busting $30/pr., ~50% of a week's net pay [$252.64 inflated] and we never heard a single note/word of the concert, just the screaming crowd. 🙁
GM
I throw in a few cents into this nice discussion.
Sometimes what the client wants is not possible because of environment and noise pollution restrictions. For example in my country on outdoor festivals it's not allowed to place endfire sub arrays, neither it is allowed to 'fly' the bass cabinets.
We also 'require' to do cardioid setups where the noise pollution at the back is minimised. Even if in some occasions it's not needed at all.
A government taks-force (The urban sound expert group), without assistance from the people who actually know how you can do sound setups, decided that after a few tests that those setups polluted the most. Because logic predicts that bass in high in the air travels further and the same for endfire setups. And we should use 'real cardioid' setup.
I am not making this up. You can read about the government 'guidelines' here, and I am curious what you think about this, so please do read it, because it is also interesting!
Sometimes what the client wants is not possible because of environment and noise pollution restrictions. For example in my country on outdoor festivals it's not allowed to place endfire sub arrays, neither it is allowed to 'fly' the bass cabinets.
We also 'require' to do cardioid setups where the noise pollution at the back is minimised. Even if in some occasions it's not needed at all.
A government taks-force (The urban sound expert group), without assistance from the people who actually know how you can do sound setups, decided that after a few tests that those setups polluted the most. Because logic predicts that bass in high in the air travels further and the same for endfire setups. And we should use 'real cardioid' setup.
I am not making this up. You can read about the government 'guidelines' here, and I am curious what you think about this, so please do read it, because it is also interesting!
Sometimes it sure seems that the soul purpose of government beige coats armed with notepads is to rid the world of inspiration, fun, progress and tolerance, devoting their lives to enforcing important issues such as changing the name of manhole covers to personhole covers... (thanks Billy), one things for sure, with those guys in charge we would never have made it to the moon or even Woodstock.
But let me put me share my view on the main topic, most if not all of the reasons and explanations so far put forward in favor of the BR design principle in this thread all falls into the second category, so let's hear some arguments for the BR in favor of what is important for the end customer (concert goer) - sound quality.
The slightly idealistic view I have is that sound quality is the soul reason for the existence of the professional sound industry, and yes people do care, if they do not have the listener's experience as the core value in what they do then they are in the wrong business.
Conformity is a sign of lack of competition, a lack of competition is a lack of effort and in the end a lack of progress, that is of course if the ultimate goal has not already been reached and BR is indeed the answer to the question - what gives the listener the best possible experience in terms of sound quality.
But let me put me share my view on the main topic, most if not all of the reasons and explanations so far put forward in favor of the BR design principle in this thread all falls into the second category, so let's hear some arguments for the BR in favor of what is important for the end customer (concert goer) - sound quality.
The slightly idealistic view I have is that sound quality is the soul reason for the existence of the professional sound industry, and yes people do care, if they do not have the listener's experience as the core value in what they do then they are in the wrong business.
Conformity is a sign of lack of competition, a lack of competition is a lack of effort and in the end a lack of progress, that is of course if the ultimate goal has not already been reached and BR is indeed the answer to the question - what gives the listener the best possible experience in terms of sound quality.
" BR is indeed the answer to the question - what gives the listener the best possible experience in terms of sound quality."
Amusing to read about the world of PA sound. But I'd be more interested in places where - quite literally - quality matters more than quantity: opera houses and concert venues (maybe even houses of worship), such as might use any modest amount of amplification in keeping with their sound quality standards.
Not denying that some PA environments need very skillful engineering, including from distinguished posters in this thread. But HiFi is a purpose they can compromise while loudness, size, weight, and cost aren't.
Do my eyes deceive me that I see fancy JBL boxes (likely BRs) hanging over the stage at many concert halls?
I doubt these boxes hold any lessons for most people at DIYaudio who are obsessed with quality reproduction at home. But still they seem an effort to bring pretty good sound (or at least, loudness enhancement) to concerts.
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Amusing to read about the world of PA sound. But I'd be more interested in places where - quite literally - quality matters more than quantity: opera houses and concert venues (maybe even houses of worship), such as might use any modest amount of amplification in keeping with their sound quality standards.
Not denying that some PA environments need very skillful engineering, including from distinguished posters in this thread. But HiFi is a purpose they can compromise while loudness, size, weight, and cost aren't.
Do my eyes deceive me that I see fancy JBL boxes (likely BRs) hanging over the stage at many concert halls?
I doubt these boxes hold any lessons for most people at DIYaudio who are obsessed with quality reproduction at home. But still they seem an effort to bring pretty good sound (or at least, loudness enhancement) to concerts.
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I would love to have some measurements to post here but I need a time machine to get them.
We where 5 different persons listening to the ROAR12 that day and everyone noticed the surprisingly narrow dispersion pattern of the ROAR design.
Sorry, it didn't happen if there are no measurements. Your subjective observation defies laws of physics. ROAR design can't have better directivity than a horn with the same dimensions.
A few more 2c comments...
Ime/imo, highest sub SQ comes from sealed, followed by FLH which is essentially sealed and horn loaded.
My choice between those two most often comes down to SPL...outdoors FLH always wins.
Indoors, when lowest freq extension is the goal and I don't need so much SPL, my choice is sealed.
I know this will be controversial, but after sealed and FLH, my next pick for SQ is a well designed, low distortion, bass-reflex.
I think a well designed BR is better in the time domain than tapped horns, or other subs that have greater path length distances, front side of cone vs back side of cone, than BR's do.
So now returning to why BR's in professional applications.....well, when they are well designed they are dang close to what I feel are best, and have all the advantages mentioned in this thread.
Plus, we need to be real about when are the differences in SQ even hearable.
Even indoors, unless you are optimizing your home audio personal experience in the hi-fi sense (at lower volume)..... hard to hear.
Outside at concerts, in most all the various venue types.... impossible to hear over audience SNR or venue acoustics.
I think a well designed indoor club with all the right acoutics, or outdoor venue againn considering acoustics, is the only time a bank of sealed or FLH will ever be truly appreciated over BR.
Ime/imo, highest sub SQ comes from sealed, followed by FLH which is essentially sealed and horn loaded.
My choice between those two most often comes down to SPL...outdoors FLH always wins.
Indoors, when lowest freq extension is the goal and I don't need so much SPL, my choice is sealed.
I know this will be controversial, but after sealed and FLH, my next pick for SQ is a well designed, low distortion, bass-reflex.
I think a well designed BR is better in the time domain than tapped horns, or other subs that have greater path length distances, front side of cone vs back side of cone, than BR's do.
So now returning to why BR's in professional applications.....well, when they are well designed they are dang close to what I feel are best, and have all the advantages mentioned in this thread.
Plus, we need to be real about when are the differences in SQ even hearable.
Even indoors, unless you are optimizing your home audio personal experience in the hi-fi sense (at lower volume)..... hard to hear.
Outside at concerts, in most all the various venue types.... impossible to hear over audience SNR or venue acoustics.
I think a well designed indoor club with all the right acoutics, or outdoor venue againn considering acoustics, is the only time a bank of sealed or FLH will ever be truly appreciated over BR.
Based on others reports and my own (limited) measurements, it is very possible the ROAR has higher (more narrow) directivity above 60 Hz than a BR or FLH of similar dimensions.
The ROAR shares many features with a "Tapped Horn", among them radiation from both sides of the woofer arriving "in phase" over a large portion of the operating range.
Tapped Horn Directivity
That said, I don't think directivity (or lack thereof) above 60 Hz has much to due with the popularity of BR over front loaded or tapped horns.
Hi Art, yeah, i'm not sure what sub directivity has to do with SQ, other than maybe handling specific acoustic environments and goals.
And i can't help but think that for directivity, it's more about size than anything.
I get how cardioid cancellation lobes work to keep bass where we don't want it, but as far as i've heard and measured, they are ultimate SQ pits of despair.
So I guess the sub SQ purist in me, simply wants to hear and see the cleanest impulses possible, and well designed BR ain't bad !
And i can't help but think that for directivity, it's more about size than anything.
I get how cardioid cancellation lobes work to keep bass where we don't want it, but as far as i've heard and measured, they are ultimate SQ pits of despair.
So I guess the sub SQ purist in me, simply wants to hear and see the cleanest impulses possible, and well designed BR ain't bad !
I am sorry. I have really tried to get my ROAR in line and submit to your knowledge of physics... But it is stubborn... It just keeps on having a really narrow directivity despite all my threats and persuasive talks I have with it. It is soo bad it is actually a problem in a normal living room. I wish I could get it to comply with your "physics", as this would solve a lot of the problems I experience regularly while using it.. 😉
If you want folks to take your ROAR directivity claims as plausible, I'd suggest you take some new measurements, especially since you say it's so easy to experience. Should be so easy to measure too.
Saying meas are lost in wayback doesn't lend any credence...
Although I would also suggest outdoor measurements, as indoors is an acoustical summation crap shoot, that i doubt anyone will care enough to dissect.
And sorry, one more thing...even if the ROAR has the claimed directivity increase....how does that make for higher SQ?
What's the needed directivity match with the rest of the speaker, that blends with the ROAR's directivity? To let you hear it's superior SQ?
Saying meas are lost in wayback doesn't lend any credence...
Although I would also suggest outdoor measurements, as indoors is an acoustical summation crap shoot, that i doubt anyone will care enough to dissect.
And sorry, one more thing...even if the ROAR has the claimed directivity increase....how does that make for higher SQ?
What's the needed directivity match with the rest of the speaker, that blends with the ROAR's directivity? To let you hear it's superior SQ?