Front view.
They have different shapes and the Dayton is made of smooth, hard plastic while the other is softer and textured. I'm curious how they alter the sound and will report back as soon as I am able - maybe not until next week since I have to cut some wood first.
Enjoying the process even with all the frustrations. Thanks everyone.
They have different shapes and the Dayton is made of smooth, hard plastic while the other is softer and textured. I'm curious how they alter the sound and will report back as soon as I am able - maybe not until next week since I have to cut some wood first.
Enjoying the process even with all the frustrations. Thanks everyone.
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Face, I'm using this crossover plus an l-pad. I hope it gets me in the ballpark. The sound is balanced in my room after adjusting the l-pad. Overall the sound is very good it's just figuring out the horn I prefer and then adjusting the crossover if necessary. I'm enjoying the process - slow and steady.
Eminence PXB2:1K6 2-Way Speaker Crossover Board 1,600 Hz
Eminence PXB2:1K6 2-Way Speaker Crossover Board 1,600 Hz
>>> how did you EQ your horn/driver/pad combo ?
No EQ. Crossover plus L-pad. I downloaded some software over the weekend I hope will allow me to produce an in-room frequency response chart. I'll adjust the sound to the way I like and put the mic right about where my head is and run the tones. I will run for each tweeter and see what happens.
No EQ. Crossover plus L-pad. I downloaded some software over the weekend I hope will allow me to produce an in-room frequency response chart. I'll adjust the sound to the way I like and put the mic right about where my head is and run the tones. I will run for each tweeter and see what happens.
freddi ( & others who may want to harp on the lack of CD compensation ),
It's very likely that CD compensation isn't necessary for a good listening experience ( with the shallow depth waveguides ).
The driver on the various shallow horns/guides, is relatively flat out to 13K.
The larger of the horn-mouth sizes ( for the constant coverage type W-Guide ) will have a very "listenable" downward tilt ( that's not extreme in it's down slope ).
Owners of this driver might also discover they have a scalloped out HiMid ( due to binding diaphragms ) .
- Some may prefer this curve (somewhat, a la BBC curve ).
Here's a trace of an un-EQed DT250P ( on the H812 clone ).
- the diaphragm was rotated , some care implemented to find the best location within the gap, the diaphragm held in place with eTape and the back-cap left off.
- The resulting trace is quite good ( pay attention to the vertical scale ).
- Distortion (3rd Harmonic ) fell to very tolerable levels.
- Installation of this drivers back-cap, brought back some distortion in the 2.5K region.
🙂
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Love the charts EarlK! Thanks for your input.
I'm happy to experiment with different horns. The Eminence CD sounds different than the Dayton (titanium v poly?). Eminence is slightly more sensitive and has more sibilance - which is a shame - in the Dayton H6512 (JBL clone). Once either tweeter is dialed in I certainly get an enjoyable listening experience. In general, the Eminence is brighter than the Dayton. I hope to find the best combination among the drivers and horns I purchased. I cut up some wood over the weekend to make it easier to swap horns and drivers.
The Dayton cd seems pretty cheaply made. The back cap is thin plastic. Originally I thought it was metal. The Eminence is built like a tank in comparison.
When I get around to running test tones I'm curious to see the shape of my curves.
I'm happy to experiment with different horns. The Eminence CD sounds different than the Dayton (titanium v poly?). Eminence is slightly more sensitive and has more sibilance - which is a shame - in the Dayton H6512 (JBL clone). Once either tweeter is dialed in I certainly get an enjoyable listening experience. In general, the Eminence is brighter than the Dayton. I hope to find the best combination among the drivers and horns I purchased. I cut up some wood over the weekend to make it easier to swap horns and drivers.
The Dayton cd seems pretty cheaply made. The back cap is thin plastic. Originally I thought it was metal. The Eminence is built like a tank in comparison.
When I get around to running test tones I'm curious to see the shape of my curves.
about the only bolt-on driver waveguide around my place for the Dayton are the old QSC and a little PRV - I'll try them on the Dayton and see how they do compared to B&C DE25. I have a Pyle waveguide but would have to try it with my B52 and Peavey -thread-on drivers. If there's nothing needed for a shallow WG then that would be nice with the PRV piece. I play with more K-stuff than horn - should put my Unity on top of a little front load horn and give that a go
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This is my first time doing this but I wanted to share my results. Now that I know how to do this I will try to be even more accurate and include more frequencies. I must be hearing the PSD 2013's 7kHz which would explain the added sibilance.
When I played the 15 and 20kHz tones I didn't hear anything. It was strange to see the meter move.
When I played the 15 and 20kHz tones I didn't hear anything. It was strange to see the meter move.
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freddi,
How old is your D250P ?
Regarding your distortion spec., have you tried rotating the orientation of the diaphragm in the driver ( as well as altering the diaphragms concentricy within the gap ) , all the while running the test signal showing the harmonic structure ?
- One can do this with the driver still mounted onto the horn ( pointing down some absorbent stuffing within the horn bell ) , the back-cap removed and the test mic pointing at the exposed diaphragm.
I'm curious ( whether or not ) your drivers also have warped back-caps ( shown in this pic ) ?
🙂
EarlK, I was able to remove the back cap and screw it back on. I noticed one of the screws did not easily thread into the metal of the magnet. Once I got everything back together the back cap looks fine (much better than your picture but still not perfect). It was enjoyable to listen to. After running the test tones I sat down for some music.
here's a B52 screw-on cousin of my bolt-on Dayton 250p with 3.3uF/0.25mH highpass on 3 different horn/WG - maybe closer to two as the Klipsch K703 "tractrix" is shallow like the Pyle PH612 waveguide.
If not outside rotting in the sun, I have some oval horns - much like smaller versions of what was used in JBL's "Paragon", which have very long neck and a lot of on-axis acoustic EQ so would be flat higher than my little Gollehon horn.
Look at 12KHZ - there's about 7-8dB difference on-axis more for the old school horn vs Pyle's PH612 - is that audible? or does the wider horizontal dispersion of the shallow WG vs power response of the compression driver make up for things ?
If not outside rotting in the sun, I have some oval horns - much like smaller versions of what was used in JBL's "Paragon", which have very long neck and a lot of on-axis acoustic EQ so would be flat higher than my little Gollehon horn.
Look at 12KHZ - there's about 7-8dB difference on-axis more for the old school horn vs Pyle's PH612 - is that audible? or does the wider horizontal dispersion of the shallow WG vs power response of the compression driver make up for things ?
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Same 7kHz peak. I will post my more detailed chart tomorrow morning. Thanks for posting your chart freddi.
did you ask Wayne or others for a RC scheme to work with your Eminence network to flatten response? the Econowave did it this way - might need a shunt resistor (16R below) before the EQ RC to keep your 1K6 network's highpass happy. If I could find some jumpers, etc. then might try it on the B52 to see what happens. (I have the old and new 1K6 boards - same parts values on both)
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Thanks for the Econowave image. You might be correct about the resistor as indicated on my chart (peak at 1600kHz). I think the peaks around 1600, around 7000 and 9000 are what distinguishes the sound of this combination. I'd like to reduce those peaks. Curious how the other horns will measure and what differences there will be - and how significant? Overall the sound was musical but with bite. After listening to and measuring the three horns and both tweeters I'll dive into crossover mods if necessary.
Honestly, there's a lot of potential for a nice sounding speaker. Very lively with a great big image. Eventually I'll get around to measuring some of my full range driver projects out of curiosity. I wonder if they also have 20 and 30 db swings?
Take these measurements with a grain of salt. I'm using a cheap mic and an iPhone.
Honestly, there's a lot of potential for a nice sounding speaker. Very lively with a great big image. Eventually I'll get around to measuring some of my full range driver projects out of curiosity. I wonder if they also have 20 and 30 db swings?
Take these measurements with a grain of salt. I'm using a cheap mic and an iPhone.
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Joined 2006
Any suggestion on a passive xover for SEOS-12 /Dayton D250P-8 and Altec 406 woofer (in Altec Madera box)? 🙂
Zilla - that 1K6 peak with the ~3K highpass was on a Gollehon radial horn - small but much larger and longer path than the waveguides. I don't think I have a bolt on to 1 3/8" adapter to try my 250p bolt on drivers with the Pyle waveguide - - will look.
Hi EarlK - mine are about a year old - no warp in the one I'm using - don't even know where the other one is in my pile - that one has never been run - is the pole piece not centered or the former not round ? I know compression drivers can be tricky as things are tight gap wise.
Hi EarlK - mine are about a year old - no warp in the one I'm using - don't even know where the other one is in my pile - that one has never been run - is the pole piece not centered or the former not round ? I know compression drivers can be tricky as things are tight gap wise.
freddi,
I returned ( last week ) my 2 Dayton drivers( to Solen ) for a refund so I can't answer your question regarding the concentricy of the driver's gap ( though the parts are tight ).
My feeling is that I was going to need to create more lateral wiggle room for the diaphragm setup ( by slightly sanding down the edge of the outer plastic ring ).
- I would have then found the cleanest harmonic structure ( using the RTA/ Spectrum Analysis mode of REW ) , then e-Taped the diaphragm in place before replacing the back-cap.
- This all might have occurred if the back-cap's mating surface hadn't been warped ( on both drivers ).
- The warp in those caps is the deal-breaker for me ( since any warp means the back-cap applies uneven pressure onto the diaphragm clamp-points as the cap gets tightened into place ).
🙂
jimbro, to date, my favorite speaker is still an open baffle Eminence 12LTA plus ASD1001 on top of H-frames. I will measure it once it’s rotated back into my system. For now, I am trying to better understand why so many audiophiles love compression drivers with big horns. At this point I simply think pro drivers implemented well for a home system really bridges the gap between smooth sounding home speakers and powerful pro audio. I see (and feel) the allure!
I never would have gone for the Eminence Lil’ Buddy if I wasn’t happy with the 12LTA. Honestly, the Beta 10B is not my cup of tea. I think it belongs solidly in the Pro camp because of it’s rougher sound whereas the 12LTA can be tamed (dustup removal) and the Lil’ Buddy sounds great without modification - but it requires a much lower crossover than the 12LTA so it’s a completely different project when trying to get the best sound. I’m a fish out of water with lower crossovers so I appreciate all the help I’m getting here!
Pro drivers offer higher efficiency than home drivers but at the cost of smoothness. I found the 12LTA smooth enough (as well as the Lil’ Buddy - but not the 10B) to listen to for extended periods without fatigue. Trying to mate a tweeter with the Lil’ Buddy is enjoyable since I’m already getting good sound. These drivers offer more punch and realism than even the expensive Fostex 168Z and Tangband 1808 (which sound wimpy beside the beefier pro drivers).
Regarding the DT250P, mine has a warped back cap too but I was able to screw it down so that the gaps are barely there. I think it’s just a cheaply made plastic back cap made to look like metal. If it wasn’t pointed out in the thread I may not have noticed at all. It’s disconcerting and I’m glad EricK was able to return them. But I hooked them up the other day and felt they sounded good enough to keep. Certainly offers a different sound than the titanium Eminence PSD2013. Listening to all these components is giving me some experience to form opinions about different drivers and horns.
freddi, I'm looking forward to hearing the other horns - exponential vs waveguide. Should be interesting.
I appreciate everyone coming along for the ride.
I never would have gone for the Eminence Lil’ Buddy if I wasn’t happy with the 12LTA. Honestly, the Beta 10B is not my cup of tea. I think it belongs solidly in the Pro camp because of it’s rougher sound whereas the 12LTA can be tamed (dustup removal) and the Lil’ Buddy sounds great without modification - but it requires a much lower crossover than the 12LTA so it’s a completely different project when trying to get the best sound. I’m a fish out of water with lower crossovers so I appreciate all the help I’m getting here!
Pro drivers offer higher efficiency than home drivers but at the cost of smoothness. I found the 12LTA smooth enough (as well as the Lil’ Buddy - but not the 10B) to listen to for extended periods without fatigue. Trying to mate a tweeter with the Lil’ Buddy is enjoyable since I’m already getting good sound. These drivers offer more punch and realism than even the expensive Fostex 168Z and Tangband 1808 (which sound wimpy beside the beefier pro drivers).
Regarding the DT250P, mine has a warped back cap too but I was able to screw it down so that the gaps are barely there. I think it’s just a cheaply made plastic back cap made to look like metal. If it wasn’t pointed out in the thread I may not have noticed at all. It’s disconcerting and I’m glad EricK was able to return them. But I hooked them up the other day and felt they sounded good enough to keep. Certainly offers a different sound than the titanium Eminence PSD2013. Listening to all these components is giving me some experience to form opinions about different drivers and horns.
freddi, I'm looking forward to hearing the other horns - exponential vs waveguide. Should be interesting.
I appreciate everyone coming along for the ride.
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