Disregarding the cheap and corny sounding names for now, I got an email about these today.
Dayton Audio PSS545HE-4 Vortex 21" Pro Subwoofer with 5" Voice Coil 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio HTS545HE-4 Kraken 21" High Excursion Subwoofer with 5" Voice Coil 4 Ohm
At first glance these appear to have some value. Specs are very similar, maybe same motor and frame and just different soft parts? Klippel verified 21 mm xmax which is quite a bit considering most high xmax drivers are definitely not Klippel verified. "Unique over-excursion protection system warns you just before catastrophic failure" means this is a hard bottom driver. It's got a shorting sleeve but ridiculously high inductance.
Interesting but I have to check the data sheet and see what it sims like.
Dayton Audio PSS545HE-4 Vortex 21" Pro Subwoofer with 5" Voice Coil 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio HTS545HE-4 Kraken 21" High Excursion Subwoofer with 5" Voice Coil 4 Ohm
At first glance these appear to have some value. Specs are very similar, maybe same motor and frame and just different soft parts? Klippel verified 21 mm xmax which is quite a bit considering most high xmax drivers are definitely not Klippel verified. "Unique over-excursion protection system warns you just before catastrophic failure" means this is a hard bottom driver. It's got a shorting sleeve but ridiculously high inductance.
Interesting but I have to check the data sheet and see what it sims like.
Looking at the section drawing, the Kraken seems to have only a shorting ring as opposed to a sleeve.
It's an interesting driver. Le is huge. Calculated semi-inductance values (derived from the published impedance curve) suggest that it's even larger through the driver's useful passband. Don't expect it to be useful above 60 Hz, at least that's what the sims say. I've tried a couple of different sims - passively-assisted sealed alignment looks the best (e.g. 200 L with about 850 uF in series), though I might be a bit biased as that's the type of alignment that's caught my attention these days...
Not sure the trade-offs are worth it for the Vortex vs. the Eminence NSW6021.
$498 vs. $750
105lbs vs. 48lbs
Inductance is quite a bit higher.
Surround looks a bit shallow for 21mm Bl based xmax.
5" vs. 6" coil.
Hard vs. soft bottom design.
A pair would make my boxes weigh 334lbs vs 220lbs with the Eminence.
The Kraken seems to have more value in ht/car or installs where it won't be moved much.
$498 vs. $750
105lbs vs. 48lbs
Inductance is quite a bit higher.
Surround looks a bit shallow for 21mm Bl based xmax.
5" vs. 6" coil.
Hard vs. soft bottom design.
A pair would make my boxes weigh 334lbs vs 220lbs with the Eminence.
The Kraken seems to have more value in ht/car or installs where it won't be moved much.
It's not like it's a great idea to be carting around 50 lbs (or more) extra in your car all the time, either.
True...I would also never have a 21" sub in my car. I can picture some SUV's with the third row area devoted to one or two of these. The price, size, and looks are right on point for a neighborhood terrorizer.
I can't say much as four 21's will carry pretty far even in rural farmland...
Nice to see you back JAG.
I can't say much as four 21's will carry pretty far even in rural farmland...
Nice to see you back JAG.
Thanks ErnieM and sine143.
I was also looking at the eminence 21, I didn't think eminence was ever going to get into the excursion game but it looks like they did. At a glance it appears to be much better than the dayton drivers but over $700 US plus international shipping makes me cringe a bit. Loudspeakers.ca won't stock them anytime soon and will likely want $1250 each if and when they do.
So ... I should probably just play with what I already have but the new toys are shiny and fun to look at.
And I'm still trying to imagine why both the dayton drivers have such ridiculous inductance.
I was also looking at the eminence 21, I didn't think eminence was ever going to get into the excursion game but it looks like they did. At a glance it appears to be much better than the dayton drivers but over $700 US plus international shipping makes me cringe a bit. Loudspeakers.ca won't stock them anytime soon and will likely want $1250 each if and when they do.
So ... I should probably just play with what I already have but the new toys are shiny and fun to look at.
And I'm still trying to imagine why both the dayton drivers have such ridiculous inductance.
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VC winding height and top plate thickness, I assume. It is really weird. Looking at a somewhat comparable driver: B&C Speakers we see that it has half the Le and a higher BL product, but a slightly lower Xmax. I'm going to guess that the top plate is very far from saturation.
I hope these drivers don't suffer immensely from Le(i) and Le(x) non-linearities but I'm not holding my breath.
Aussie 21" options???
SB Audience - NERO-21SW1100D = $759 AUD
Dayton Audio PSS555-8 = $715 AUD
Dayton Audio PSS545HE-4 = $1050 AUD
Seems the SB has many of the features of the PSS545HE-4 and lower Le than both Dayton options - do I really need all that Xmax in a 21" for HT duties?
😕
SB Audience - NERO-21SW1100D = $759 AUD
Dayton Audio PSS555-8 = $715 AUD
Dayton Audio PSS545HE-4 = $1050 AUD
Seems the SB has many of the features of the PSS545HE-4 and lower Le than both Dayton options - do I really need all that Xmax in a 21" for HT duties?
😕
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I just noticed data-bass already measured the new eminence 21. I'm a little bit shocked to see that it runs head to head with the displacement kings like TC 5400, RE XXX, Sundown ZV4 at max output but without any of the inductance issues of those high excursion 18s IN THE SAME SIZE BOX.
Why the hell are the traditional high excursion drivers all so incredibly bad at inductance control when eminence is able to knock it right out of the park on the first swing? Is eminence really the only company that knows what they are doing? To be fair, yes I'm comparing a 21 with some 18s so the 21 doesnt have to move the cone as far for equal spl, but imo the fact that the 21 can do it with far better frequency response in the same size box makes the driver size difference moot.
Three attached pics show the eminence 21 head to head with 18 inch RE XXX (with claimed 54 mm xmax), both in the same size sealed box. Showing max long term output, CEA 2010 short burst and burst with no thd limit.
Have there been previous discussions about the eminence driver? It seems to be pretty special, maybe a game changer. It seems to have completely solved the inductance issue.
Why the hell are the traditional high excursion drivers all so incredibly bad at inductance control when eminence is able to knock it right out of the park on the first swing? Is eminence really the only company that knows what they are doing? To be fair, yes I'm comparing a 21 with some 18s so the 21 doesnt have to move the cone as far for equal spl, but imo the fact that the 21 can do it with far better frequency response in the same size box makes the driver size difference moot.
Three attached pics show the eminence 21 head to head with 18 inch RE XXX (with claimed 54 mm xmax), both in the same size sealed box. Showing max long term output, CEA 2010 short burst and burst with no thd limit.
Have there been previous discussions about the eminence driver? It seems to be pretty special, maybe a game changer. It seems to have completely solved the inductance issue.
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Mainly talked about in the Data-Bass forum and AVS forums.
Other than the minor(but very annoying edge tik) issue I've had with two out of my four drivers, they do seem to be quite special. Nearest competitor is the B&C Ipal 21and then the $2,000 Rockford Fosgate T19.
They did hire quite the resume a couple of years ago.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtneyfmorgan
Other than the minor(but very annoying edge tik) issue I've had with two out of my four drivers, they do seem to be quite special. Nearest competitor is the B&C Ipal 21and then the $2,000 Rockford Fosgate T19.
They did hire quite the resume a couple of years ago.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtneyfmorgan
Thanks ErnieM I'll try to find those threads. I don't like the pricetag but these seem to be well worth it and then some.
I wonder if there's going to be a Canadian source anytime soon. Cant get into shipping back and forth internationally for small but annoying issues.
I wonder if there's going to be a Canadian source anytime soon. Cant get into shipping back and forth internationally for small but annoying issues.
Yeah...if they put just a bit more glue on the surround to frame joint they would've been fine. Instructed to put Glue-All in a bead around the rear of the surround after the two replacements had similar issues. I asked if I could fix it myself instead of going further with the issue.
I have a feeling that is why Ricci designed his current boxes the way he did. To hide all these prosound 21's potential mechanical noises as he's had similar issues with a number of drivers from different manufacturers. He actually stated that as a design goal but I don't know if his were as loud as my example.
I have a feeling that is why Ricci designed his current boxes the way he did. To hide all these prosound 21's potential mechanical noises as he's had similar issues with a number of drivers from different manufacturers. He actually stated that as a design goal but I don't know if his were as loud as my example.
I found your video of the "annoying" noise. It's completely unacceptable. It's also not good that they replaced 2 broken drivers with 2 new broken drivers. This isn't something you should have to fix yourself it never should have been an issue in the first place. Excursion testing should be part of quality control in the factory.
Was it PE? They are famous for terrible shipping packaging and quality control even when shipping internationally. They just really don't seem to care at all. Replacements should be tested especially to make sure they don't have the exact same issue they are sending the replacements for.
Not sure which box Ricci used with these (other than sealed for testing) but there's no way to hide that noise. I'm not sure what frequency it's at but my laptop speakers play it fine so it's a higher noise generated while playing bass. There's no way to hide that. You could try burying it in a 4th bandpass but you still gonna hear it and that's a dumb box type for this type of driver.
Was it PE? They are famous for terrible shipping packaging and quality control even when shipping internationally. They just really don't seem to care at all. Replacements should be tested especially to make sure they don't have the exact same issue they are sending the replacements for.
Not sure which box Ricci used with these (other than sealed for testing) but there's no way to hide that noise. I'm not sure what frequency it's at but my laptop speakers play it fine so it's a higher noise generated while playing bass. There's no way to hide that. You could try burying it in a 4th bandpass but you still gonna hear it and that's a dumb box type for this type of driver.
To save my sanity I'm chalking it up to covid and possibly the fact they sell for a bit less than an Ipal. I did hint that a Klippel QC station should be used(I would think they do). Takes a couple seconds to check. T/S parameters are consistent though. Fs on all four came in within 1hz. Just one more quick step would save a lot of headaches...and stop wordy enthusiasts from posting all over the internet.
Shipping was Eminence to Sweetwater in the same factory box for a trip to California. I read that Eminence started double boxing after complaints of poor packaging. Mine came double boxed with external box edge reinforcement. The driver still has a lot of play inside the box that could be taken care of with foam inserts...which I mentioned as well. I have had bad results from PE with larger drivers. Free shipping is cool but not at the expense of proper packaging. Also didn't get a tracking email for the replacements direct from Eminence. They just showed up unannounced at the door step over two days.
The noise really does stick out. That one had several areas where the surround wasn't fully glued. Defeats the purpose of extended xmax. My current tickers have it in one spot but still loud.
The drivers are nice other wise and I will probably be happy with them once playing but I hope Eminence tightens things up sooner than later. Leaves a sour taste for future purchases.
Shipping was Eminence to Sweetwater in the same factory box for a trip to California. I read that Eminence started double boxing after complaints of poor packaging. Mine came double boxed with external box edge reinforcement. The driver still has a lot of play inside the box that could be taken care of with foam inserts...which I mentioned as well. I have had bad results from PE with larger drivers. Free shipping is cool but not at the expense of proper packaging. Also didn't get a tracking email for the replacements direct from Eminence. They just showed up unannounced at the door step over two days.
The noise really does stick out. That one had several areas where the surround wasn't fully glued. Defeats the purpose of extended xmax. My current tickers have it in one spot but still loud.
The drivers are nice other wise and I will probably be happy with them once playing but I hope Eminence tightens things up sooner than later. Leaves a sour taste for future purchases.