Thank's for your invitation for an audition. I have been to Aarhus lately on the Jazz week, and it seems to ba a music oriented town. Very nice.
I could bring my tube linestage for example, to get well known equip into the chain. However, if it is impossible to eventually get hold of a sample of your DAC for myself I will have to think it over. If I find your DAC really good, I might get irritated.. 😉
I could bring my tube linestage for example, to get well known equip into the chain. However, if it is impossible to eventually get hold of a sample of your DAC for myself I will have to think it over. If I find your DAC really good, I might get irritated.. 😉
As Kurt von Kubik mentions, we have decided not to make a DIY version of our DAC. Actually the idea of the DAC from the beginning,was to make a Ultra High performance DIY DAC. But as time has passed (more than 4 years of R&D), the system has been more and more complicated, and absolutely NOT suited for DIY. And the price has exploded!
No doubt that some DIY'ers will be able to solder together this DAC and make it work. But to many will most likely end up with a non working system, due to the high complexity design.
We both feel a bit sorry about this, since te performance really is second to none!
As a result of this, we have decided to make an small series, of about 10-15 pcs of this DAC. And that's it for now. Maybe we will consider a new series some day.
Instead we have decided to take all the experiences we have got from this DAC, and make a more DIY friendly version at a very low cost! This new design will be launched in it's own thread as soon as it is finished. But I will make a short introduction right here:
------------------------------------------
The idea is to make DAC that will outperform known DAC's like the DAC1, but at a much lower price. We are aiming towards a buildprice of aprox 200USD all included (Except Chassis that will be some extra 30-40USD).
Everything except connectors will be placed on a single 2-layer PCB of approx 100x160mm. Even the power-transformers.
Within the next weeks, we will do some listening tests on the CS4398 chip which has show to be the best 24bit chip, and some new 32bit chips from AKM. Only listenings-tests will be used to decide what chip to go for! But as it looks right now, we will go for CS4398! This chip simply just sounds great!!
Else the system will be based on CS8416 and AD1896/SRC4192. The clock for the ASRC will be onboard.
There will be 4 digital inputs, tht can be configurated as you like. Ex COAX, TOSLINK and USB.
The analog stage layout will make it possible to tweak using different op-amps. And actually something quite special. We will make it possible to use a 100% non feedback design. More about that later.
We will use seperate voltage regulators for all critical supplys.
And again.... we will aim at a price of approx 200USD all included!!
As soon as the schematic is done, we will make it public. Also we will create the partlist.
About the PCB. Well, we might upload the Gerber-files. But the cost for PCB very much depends on how many you order. Therefor I think we should arrange some sort of group-buy. But let's discuss later.....
I will return to the lab, to finish the prototypes...
No doubt that some DIY'ers will be able to solder together this DAC and make it work. But to many will most likely end up with a non working system, due to the high complexity design.
We both feel a bit sorry about this, since te performance really is second to none!
As a result of this, we have decided to make an small series, of about 10-15 pcs of this DAC. And that's it for now. Maybe we will consider a new series some day.
Instead we have decided to take all the experiences we have got from this DAC, and make a more DIY friendly version at a very low cost! This new design will be launched in it's own thread as soon as it is finished. But I will make a short introduction right here:
------------------------------------------
The idea is to make DAC that will outperform known DAC's like the DAC1, but at a much lower price. We are aiming towards a buildprice of aprox 200USD all included (Except Chassis that will be some extra 30-40USD).
Everything except connectors will be placed on a single 2-layer PCB of approx 100x160mm. Even the power-transformers.
Within the next weeks, we will do some listening tests on the CS4398 chip which has show to be the best 24bit chip, and some new 32bit chips from AKM. Only listenings-tests will be used to decide what chip to go for! But as it looks right now, we will go for CS4398! This chip simply just sounds great!!
Else the system will be based on CS8416 and AD1896/SRC4192. The clock for the ASRC will be onboard.
There will be 4 digital inputs, tht can be configurated as you like. Ex COAX, TOSLINK and USB.
The analog stage layout will make it possible to tweak using different op-amps. And actually something quite special. We will make it possible to use a 100% non feedback design. More about that later.
We will use seperate voltage regulators for all critical supplys.
And again.... we will aim at a price of approx 200USD all included!!
As soon as the schematic is done, we will make it public. Also we will create the partlist.
About the PCB. Well, we might upload the Gerber-files. But the cost for PCB very much depends on how many you order. Therefor I think we should arrange some sort of group-buy. But let's discuss later.....
I will return to the lab, to finish the prototypes...
nanocamp said:
We know it has been a long time, and I admit that the "Completed" term was maybe a bit premature, as we now implemented upsampling in the design which we are very fond of.
So it was "almost" completed, and by now we still need to get through experiments with different clocks, to get the whole thing working as we hoped for, so even now it is almost almost finished and completed.
You also must consider, that the ambition for this design, from the very beginneing was no less than state of the art. We simply will not accept, that it should be possible to go into any hifi store with a nice thick wallet, and pay the number on the pricetag and then also get better sound.
This has to beat them all regarding reproduction of sound period.
That means close to endless sessions of testing, which never could be considered developing commercial products.
So we are not racer developers and testers, but we are very focused on our aims, and still going on.
This might seem provocative to some, but so be it.
The aims is still to engineer a DAC with as few flaws as possible, so that it will not make you compensate for flaws in preceeding gear. On top of solder, components PCB´s and casework, time is the most important factor.
MarcH said:
@ the end of august we should have spares of the DAC, or at least we should be able to build some.
We have 10 main PCB´s and we ordered 5 casings, and the lead time for this is normally about 2 weeks. So it might be possible to prevent any irritation of yours. Anyways - listening to alien set-ups can be a very scope widening experience.
Time for a small update on the project:
As written before, the project has gone from semi DIY-friendly to absolutely not for DIY, as the construction has grown more and more complex.
I am sure that some experienced DIY'er will be able to make a working DAC. But surely many will not.
But anyway.... I have just received the absolute final PCB's, and naturally I want to share with you 🙂
Just to summarize, the DAC now includes:
We have been asked about the shunt regulatore for the analog stage. How is it made??? Actually this is no secret.
Our shunt is based on the one used by LC Audio. A 3 transistor discrete design. The schematic is availeble out there on the big internet. What we did is:
The most important of these, is the true current source implementation. This really makes a huge different. Ripple rejection is in theory approx 180dB!!
We spend many months listening to different decoupling capacitors. They all sound different, ranging from really bad to really good. But the all have their own sound.
The shunt completely solves this problem!
-----------------------------------
As I said, PCB's just arrived. I ordered 10 pcs, that's it.
Next week, the chassis will arrive, and more pictures will follow.
These 10 pcs will be available within the next weeks. Some already ordered, meaning that I only have a few left
And then what???
Well... We are thinking about making a more DIY friendly version of the DAC, since we feel that more people should have the chance of having one. But this is not planned yet. More will follow in a new thread.
As written before, the project has gone from semi DIY-friendly to absolutely not for DIY, as the construction has grown more and more complex.
I am sure that some experienced DIY'er will be able to make a working DAC. But surely many will not.
But anyway.... I have just received the absolute final PCB's, and naturally I want to share with you 🙂
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Just to summarize, the DAC now includes:
- CS8414 - SPDIF receiver
SRC4192/AD1896 Sample Rate Converter (Supports both types)
CS4398 - D/A-Converter
Fully discrete non negative feedback analog stage
2 stage regulation og ALL supply voltages
Analog supply using shunt regulation and no decoupling caps
Slot for external master clock genaerator
High Quality PCB's made in Denmark
We have been asked about the shunt regulatore for the analog stage. How is it made??? Actually this is no secret.
Our shunt is based on the one used by LC Audio. A 3 transistor discrete design. The schematic is availeble out there on the big internet. What we did is:
- Changed the shunt voltage
Feed it from a true current source
Changed the cut off frequency
Choose different transistors
The most important of these, is the true current source implementation. This really makes a huge different. Ripple rejection is in theory approx 180dB!!
We spend many months listening to different decoupling capacitors. They all sound different, ranging from really bad to really good. But the all have their own sound.
The shunt completely solves this problem!
-----------------------------------
As I said, PCB's just arrived. I ordered 10 pcs, that's it.
Next week, the chassis will arrive, and more pictures will follow.
These 10 pcs will be available within the next weeks. Some already ordered, meaning that I only have a few left
And then what???
Well... We are thinking about making a more DIY friendly version of the DAC, since we feel that more people should have the chance of having one. But this is not planned yet. More will follow in a new thread.
Thanks.... I guys you guys will have one of the first finished ones over for a demo in a short time....
Hurtig said:
IMHO, it is everyone's own decision if a project is beyond their skills, not yours. It is a poor excuse for not sharing the schematic. If you don't want to share it, just say so, you don't want to. It is more honest that way.
It's not difficult to post a schematic. The reason I would like to see it is because of your claims on bandwith and low impedance. I am very skeptical of these claims, and would like to simulate your design, to see if even in theory you've surpassed every regulator schematic on the internet.
You see, once you make claims, people would like to see evidence. If you're not prepared to give evidence, then please, don't make claims. It only hurts your credibility.
Would be interested in purchasing your DAC and recommended power transformer; less chassis.
Let me know if this is an option as well as the prices, etc.
Also, is it possible to incorporate a phase inversion switching circuit into this DAC in either the digital or analog sections.
Tried to send you an email but it seems like you do not accept emails from members of this forum.
Cheers.
Let me know if this is an option as well as the prices, etc.
Also, is it possible to incorporate a phase inversion switching circuit into this DAC in either the digital or analog sections.
Tried to send you an email but it seems like you do not accept emails from members of this forum.
Cheers.
JeroenR said:
Agree that this is just a shameless product plug. While I can not know your initial intent, the final actions tells me that there was never any intent on making this public.
ikoflexer said:
No problem... Here is the original circuit from LC Audio:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
T312 must be a medium power device. You could use BD136 for simulation.
Feed it approx 30-50mA + the current you need to supply. We have not tested it for more than approx 100mA.
I partly agree, that it is up to any DIY'er self, to decide if he/she is capable of doing any given project.
But we feel that most DIY'ers will have a hard time with this one. And we do not want to risk to many DIY'ers having bad experiences. Therefor we have decided not to make the design public.
Instead we decided to spend some time making the design more DIY friendly, so that more people can enjoy it.
My guess is, that this time will be wasted, if we already have a bad reputation, because to many people has had problems with the first design.
So please no worry... the design will be public, when we have made it DIY friendly!!
hafp said:
Hi
I will put you in the list for a PCB. Price... Well, I have not calculated it yet. Main focus has been in finishing the design 😉
I also have the power supply PCB for the DAC. Just did not upload any pictures.
The PSU board is made with low profile UI-core transformers. These have been choosen by listening-tests. We believe that the relative large gap between primary and secondary winding is the reason for that.
The board can be set to 110-115VAC or 220-230VAC mains by som "Jumpers". So no problem using the DAC in the US.
JeroenR said:
As I wrote before, we will make schematic and possible also PCB files public, as soon as we have made it more DIY friendly. We just don't want to risk to many DIY'ers having problems.
Curly Woods said:
Happy to tell you, that you are totally wrong. The schematics will be public!
First of all a small corection has to be made.
The DAC features CS8416 not CS8414.
Next I can tell that the original idea with this project was a nice DIY DAC, which could easily be assembled by all experienced solderguys out there.
At that time all regulators were IC reg´s, and it looked actually nice and seemed a reasonably simple task for hardcore DIYérs.
As a result of a lot of listening tests, we later on implemented discrete regulators, shuntregs, current sources, ASRC, external clockcirquit and so on, everything still on the same size of PCB.
In other words it has become damned complicated and very campact to. Still we wanted to build some DAC´s, so that we at least could have one ourselves.
Starting up a full or partly robot assembling of the DAC would be the way to go, but unfortunately this is pretty expensive, as start-up costs are pretty high .
The same goes for PCB manufacturing, high quality PCB´s has pretty high start-up costs to.
And it is made even worse, as the enclosure manufacturer also wants to bill us pretty high start-up costs.
Therefor a new project with as few drawbacks as possible was decided.
Be patient please, the whole idea about a product plug is out of this world, as we only intend to make 10 Pcs. and that´s it.
Actually it would have been much much easier and cheaper to buy a high end DAC in a hifistore.
The DAC features CS8416 not CS8414.
Next I can tell that the original idea with this project was a nice DIY DAC, which could easily be assembled by all experienced solderguys out there.
At that time all regulators were IC reg´s, and it looked actually nice and seemed a reasonably simple task for hardcore DIYérs.
As a result of a lot of listening tests, we later on implemented discrete regulators, shuntregs, current sources, ASRC, external clockcirquit and so on, everything still on the same size of PCB.
In other words it has become damned complicated and very campact to. Still we wanted to build some DAC´s, so that we at least could have one ourselves.
Starting up a full or partly robot assembling of the DAC would be the way to go, but unfortunately this is pretty expensive, as start-up costs are pretty high .
The same goes for PCB manufacturing, high quality PCB´s has pretty high start-up costs to.
And it is made even worse, as the enclosure manufacturer also wants to bill us pretty high start-up costs.
Therefor a new project with as few drawbacks as possible was decided.
Be patient please, the whole idea about a product plug is out of this world, as we only intend to make 10 Pcs. and that´s it.
Actually it would have been much much easier and cheaper to buy a high end DAC in a hifistore.
Thank you for the effort but... did I ask for a part of a well known schematic available on the web? No, I didn't, but that's what you gave me. I have absolutely no trust in anything that someone with your attitude has to offer.
In summary, you have no product to sell, no questions on a design to ask, no schematic to show. What is the point of the thread?
Regards.
In summary, you have no product to sell, no questions on a design to ask, no schematic to show. What is the point of the thread?
Regards.
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