You might like to go have a look at dac reviews on audiosciencereview.com
any 9gaggers here?
ok, lets put some kerosine on the fire
I stumbled over this post and the topic is as old as the audiophile hobby. Just wondering what the actual point is, the OP wants to make?
a) proof to the community with audiophile DIYrs that their Hobby is useless?
b) show he/she/it is not capable of emotional listening?
c) whatever else, I miss to see?
in case of a) it seems to me, that all these discussions are going along the route of "all paintings are the same, it is all colored oil paint on canvas, so I do not understand why people are placeboing them self in telling some paintings are so much better/nicer/interesting/etc than others" ?
the funny thing is, that indeed that particular thesis would turn out to be true with a "blind test"
Sounds provocative, should be read like this of course, as I find the OP also provocative with trying to spoil my hobby.
I can certainly tell the difference, also blind, between many DACs - no problem at all
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ok, lets put some kerosine on the fire
I stumbled over this post and the topic is as old as the audiophile hobby. Just wondering what the actual point is, the OP wants to make?
a) proof to the community with audiophile DIYrs that their Hobby is useless?
b) show he/she/it is not capable of emotional listening?
c) whatever else, I miss to see?
in case of a) it seems to me, that all these discussions are going along the route of "all paintings are the same, it is all colored oil paint on canvas, so I do not understand why people are placeboing them self in telling some paintings are so much better/nicer/interesting/etc than others" ?
the funny thing is, that indeed that particular thesis would turn out to be true with a "blind test" Sounds provocative, should be read like this of course, as I find the OP also provocative with trying to spoil my hobby.
I can certainly tell the difference, also blind, between many DACs - no problem at all
...
Attachments
DAC's audible distortion hasn't been an issue since late 90's.
Keep in mind that there hasn't been any evidence cited by those who claim to have heard a difference, just anecdotes, opinion and shill for audio business.
Finally someone who is a little bit different and has many dacs in his arsenal.I can certainly tell the difference, also blind, between many DACs - no problem at all
How can you blindy tell the difference while other blind testers couldn't? How did you do the blind test? Is your hearing far superior or is it your vast experience (I visited your Homepage) when it comes to dacs? Please tell us about your worst dac (it should be reasonably sei-modern and at least above 50€) and your best dac and how they differ?
I'm headed down the path of an outboard streamer and so this is a topic of interest to me. Not necessarily from an audiophile perspective, but from the perspective of maximising my enjoyment of the music I like to listen to.
I've formerly been of a view that digital music is just that, there shouldn't be any variation. But, of course there is and some of the variation is measurable and quite audible in comparison to other units. And I'm going to use the term streamer instead of DAC. A streamer will contain a DAC and associated circuitry. The actual DAC chip may be the same as used in another streamer, but sound different owing to design decisions taken in the implementation into the streamer.
Lets start with the reproduction equipment, amp, speakers interconnects. Assuming these remain the same then there is going to be a spectrum of sound reproduction that can be achieved depending on the source quality. This will be the audio file, the DAC and interconnect.
Assuming the interconnect and music file are the same, then its the DAC that's going to be the variable and while the physical DAC chip itself may be the same in a number of players, the way in which its implemented may make a difference. Specifically, the power supply design is what is known to make a difference and if you look under the hood of the more expensive devices, its the sophistication of the power supply that seems to increase the cost.
Having researched this for a while, that's the opinion I've formed. The power supplys themselves for a standalone Pi based streamer can be more than half the cost of the entire solution, several hundred dollars for a linear power supply is not uncommon. The better ones are using high end name brand components.
In addition, you can get different DAC hats for the Pi, and reviewers agree some are obviously better than others when it comes to audio quality. And there are technical reasons for this owing to design decisions taken by the various manufacturers as well as the DAC used. Allo take great care in the design of their products. Others don't use precise timing and just resample. Apparently, the differences are audible to reviewers.
The better ones like the Allo Boss are said to sound noticeably better than some commercial products. And in all cases they sound better with a linear power supply than a SMPS, the brick that typically comes with a Pi.
So while I don't doubt the original test and results which sparked the conversation, I think there is a broader context. In my experience some do sound better than others. Once my Pi based streamer is up and running, I'll report back on how it compares to the two onboard ones I already have.
But at the end of the day what does it matter so long as you enjoy the music that you like to listen to and the journey that gets you there?
I've formerly been of a view that digital music is just that, there shouldn't be any variation. But, of course there is and some of the variation is measurable and quite audible in comparison to other units. And I'm going to use the term streamer instead of DAC. A streamer will contain a DAC and associated circuitry. The actual DAC chip may be the same as used in another streamer, but sound different owing to design decisions taken in the implementation into the streamer.
Lets start with the reproduction equipment, amp, speakers interconnects. Assuming these remain the same then there is going to be a spectrum of sound reproduction that can be achieved depending on the source quality. This will be the audio file, the DAC and interconnect.
Assuming the interconnect and music file are the same, then its the DAC that's going to be the variable and while the physical DAC chip itself may be the same in a number of players, the way in which its implemented may make a difference. Specifically, the power supply design is what is known to make a difference and if you look under the hood of the more expensive devices, its the sophistication of the power supply that seems to increase the cost.
Having researched this for a while, that's the opinion I've formed. The power supplys themselves for a standalone Pi based streamer can be more than half the cost of the entire solution, several hundred dollars for a linear power supply is not uncommon. The better ones are using high end name brand components.
In addition, you can get different DAC hats for the Pi, and reviewers agree some are obviously better than others when it comes to audio quality. And there are technical reasons for this owing to design decisions taken by the various manufacturers as well as the DAC used. Allo take great care in the design of their products. Others don't use precise timing and just resample. Apparently, the differences are audible to reviewers.
The better ones like the Allo Boss are said to sound noticeably better than some commercial products. And in all cases they sound better with a linear power supply than a SMPS, the brick that typically comes with a Pi.
So while I don't doubt the original test and results which sparked the conversation, I think there is a broader context. In my experience some do sound better than others. Once my Pi based streamer is up and running, I'll report back on how it compares to the two onboard ones I already have.
But at the end of the day what does it matter so long as you enjoy the music that you like to listen to and the journey that gets you there?
Some further context. Below the story behind a very high end device. You can see that a lot of effort has gone into controlling jitter for a start.The cutaway shows a massive power supply and the analog stage has a valve design. This is a device that is certainly going to have its own sound and a stratospheric price to match.
Kassandra Series - Aries Cerat
This is a very good example of why some streamers will certainly sound different and what I had been attempting to explain above. Now this is not a diy thing for sure (82 thousand euros and 120kg apparently), but I'm hoping the point is made. These devices can sound different and there's good reasons they do.
Kassandra Series - Aries Cerat
This is a very good example of why some streamers will certainly sound different and what I had been attempting to explain above. Now this is not a diy thing for sure (82 thousand euros and 120kg apparently), but I'm hoping the point is made. These devices can sound different and there's good reasons they do.
What about the volume levels between DACs tested? Did they remain the same too?
It stands to reason if you connect a better sound source, you'll get a better result.
My observations where you have helpfully highlighted certain information are there to show that no equipment in the chain has changed other than the streamer. Whether the volume changes or not is immaterial. What's important is the result.
There's another post not yet published which expands on what I was attempting to explain. I think the clarity you seek will be found there.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind, only to share an experience. If it helps, good, if not, well that's OK too.
My observations where you have helpfully highlighted certain information are there to show that no equipment in the chain has changed other than the streamer. Whether the volume changes or not is immaterial. What's important is the result.
There's another post not yet published which expands on what I was attempting to explain. I think the clarity you seek will be found there.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind, only to share an experience. If it helps, good, if not, well that's OK too.
In 1948 it was considered that 10 watts was enough power and that 0.1% distortion was inaudible. There have been people who claimed that IMD didn't exist because you couldn't measure it. There have been people who claim that vinyl sounds better than CD. And there are now deluded people who can't hear the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit.
Audio is subjective, and ears can be trained. Musicians can often tell more than the average listener. If you put a panel of average people down in front of a system and do a blind test OF COURSE they can't hear the differences. They also couldn't tell you the difference between a Porsche and a Volkswagen, a Rump Steak from Filet Mignon, and Moët from Blue Nun.
I pity the deaf and the average, but I don't cater to their disabilities. For them exists television, Big Macs and Volvos. And they're welcome to it.
The cheapest upgrade to a hifi system is having your ears cleaned.
Audio is subjective, and ears can be trained. Musicians can often tell more than the average listener. If you put a panel of average people down in front of a system and do a blind test OF COURSE they can't hear the differences. They also couldn't tell you the difference between a Porsche and a Volkswagen, a Rump Steak from Filet Mignon, and Moët from Blue Nun.
I pity the deaf and the average, but I don't cater to their disabilities. For them exists television, Big Macs and Volvos. And they're welcome to it.
The cheapest upgrade to a hifi system is having your ears cleaned.
What about audio reproduction?
So called "Golden Ears" couldn't either even though they could during warmup when they can see which unit is being used.
What’s the purpose of attempting to communicate with diyers in this site when you hold such an arrogant stance?
You do that when you are on the air too Mr. Judd?
QRK: <1
George
Garbage. You cannot alter what your hearing, you can only convince yourself that you have special knowledge and your ears have been exposed to pure perfect tones for such a period as to understand how they are suppose to sound. Measurements? Great they either reinforce the bs your brain has already created or convince you that your ears are so good, that you have trained your ears so well that you can hear things that don’t show up in the measurements, even better. What is the average guy missing? When you ‘train’ your ears do you catch the dragon, have an sonic epiphany and achieve audio enlightenment?
and my Volvo is pimp, believe
Oh yes, you can. No, you can't alter what comes into your ear, you can't alter the mechanical properties of your hearing but hearing is not done with your ears, it's done with your brain and your brain can be trained (it can easily be fooled to) Ask any musician or any piano tuner. I do have "trained" ears (not "golden ears") because of my profession as a sound engineer for over 30 years. I get tested every year not only in the frequency spectrum but also for the ability to differentiate sounds and while my ears are dropping, my sound perception doesn't follow that curve. According to my audiologist, I have musicians ears while I have not played an instrument in my entire life. I still can follow people whispering from a distance in a noisy environment that even a lot of young people can not hear and not because my ears are better. Technically they can hear it a whole lot better than my old fainting ears but their brains don't pick it up. Your ears get "trained" for it though if you are a "focused" listener day in day out. It says nothing however about the ability to enjoy listening to music, it is just nothing more than my professional deformation, nothing to be proud of either. The downside of it is that people with "trained" ears are always focused on the sound around them, 24 hours a day and are for that very prone to develop tinnitus, life is cruel.
Are you sure you don't mistake it with misophonia? I got the later, and life is truly cruel. Tinnitus is more of constant ringing in the ears, while misophonia is about very painful perception towards some everyday's sounds.
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