Frank,
Even if you replace them with the same make and type in the same value and voltage it will more than likely change the sound quite a bit.
With electrolytics, I've found them to keep changing the sound of the equipment for maybe three months. Many people say they've noticed changes after longer periods.
So, if you change them, it'll sound different, then gradually settle. Will you remember by then what it sounds like now? You'll have lost your reference. Unless you can swap the filter into you pals DaCappo and compare with that.
I've used different makes in different places as the effect varies. A 100u Black gate across a larger decoupling cap, eg 10,000u@63V can be really good or can be boomy and overly bright and edgy. A Nichicon KZ can also be really good or boomy, but not so bright as the BG's. The BG tend to convey a very fast and very dynamic effect, which is most a good thing. The Nichicon KZ or GS4 tend to be very nice but lack the slam of the BG's. A slam that some people find can is too much. I think it tends to bring the sound to life.
As always, a lot depends on the rest of your system and it's sound.
I think I would stay away from the lowest grade BG's as they can be rather coarse and grainy. It's a fair sized investment for medium or top grade ones.
Quite often it seems to be possible to use a smaller value of BG or Oscon to replace an electrolytic. Personally though, I have big banks of caps on external PSU boards to all my equipment. External 'cause they're just too big to fit inside. I only do it if it sounds better but it usually does.
Audiojoy, do you mean you've replaced, eg, 100u electrolytics with, eg, 1u film caps?
Hope this helps.
PS: Oscons are not electrolytic. BG's are not really electrolytic. They both transfer electrons in a conductor rather than ions in an electrolyte. They are said to be 100 times faster than electrolytics.
Even if you replace them with the same make and type in the same value and voltage it will more than likely change the sound quite a bit.
With electrolytics, I've found them to keep changing the sound of the equipment for maybe three months. Many people say they've noticed changes after longer periods.
So, if you change them, it'll sound different, then gradually settle. Will you remember by then what it sounds like now? You'll have lost your reference. Unless you can swap the filter into you pals DaCappo and compare with that.
I've used different makes in different places as the effect varies. A 100u Black gate across a larger decoupling cap, eg 10,000u@63V can be really good or can be boomy and overly bright and edgy. A Nichicon KZ can also be really good or boomy, but not so bright as the BG's. The BG tend to convey a very fast and very dynamic effect, which is most a good thing. The Nichicon KZ or GS4 tend to be very nice but lack the slam of the BG's. A slam that some people find can is too much. I think it tends to bring the sound to life.
As always, a lot depends on the rest of your system and it's sound.
I think I would stay away from the lowest grade BG's as they can be rather coarse and grainy. It's a fair sized investment for medium or top grade ones.
Quite often it seems to be possible to use a smaller value of BG or Oscon to replace an electrolytic. Personally though, I have big banks of caps on external PSU boards to all my equipment. External 'cause they're just too big to fit inside. I only do it if it sounds better but it usually does.
Audiojoy, do you mean you've replaced, eg, 100u electrolytics with, eg, 1u film caps?
Hope this helps.
PS: Oscons are not electrolytic. BG's are not really electrolytic. They both transfer electrons in a conductor rather than ions in an electrolyte. They are said to be 100 times faster than electrolytics.
I am not sure either which caps would be best.
If I was changing them I have a feeling I would go for oscons. The only reason I have for this (when running it through in my head) is that John W designed the da-capo and obviously designed and tested, tweaked etc. the DAC to sound good to his ears.
So I am supposing if I like the Da-capo as much as I do and find it considerablly better than anything else I have heard that his ears are quite good at this.
Now if JW used oscons in the Da-Capo and likes the sound of them I can only think it hasn't got all boomy and has built on the strengths it already has....
Can't be sure but it's the most persuassive argument I can come up with. Trouble is diffrent Caps do diffrent things in diffrent parts of the circuits so not sure any solution that uses the same make and type in all places is perfect.
Anybody know KI? Can we get him to re-cap them? He even has a database (he created) with the results of loads of diffrent caps in diffrent places of a CD circuit so he knows exactly what to change where to tune the sound of a player to sound exactly the way he wants....
John W??? Would you recommend oscons everywhere? or diffrent types? Did you use oscons in yours and did they sit well with the sound the DAC is famous for?
John
If I was changing them I have a feeling I would go for oscons. The only reason I have for this (when running it through in my head) is that John W designed the da-capo and obviously designed and tested, tweaked etc. the DAC to sound good to his ears.
So I am supposing if I like the Da-capo as much as I do and find it considerablly better than anything else I have heard that his ears are quite good at this.
Now if JW used oscons in the Da-Capo and likes the sound of them I can only think it hasn't got all boomy and has built on the strengths it already has....
Can't be sure but it's the most persuassive argument I can come up with. Trouble is diffrent Caps do diffrent things in diffrent parts of the circuits so not sure any solution that uses the same make and type in all places is perfect.
Anybody know KI? Can we get him to re-cap them? He even has a database (he created) with the results of loads of diffrent caps in diffrent places of a CD circuit so he knows exactly what to change where to tune the sound of a player to sound exactly the way he wants....
John W??? Would you recommend oscons everywhere? or diffrent types? Did you use oscons in yours and did they sit well with the sound the DAC is famous for?
John
Hi Ian
yes for a lot of the values under 100uf i was able to replace with military petp, which are reasonably sized. For 100uf i used 3 of the 22uf version. Tight squeeze but sounded immediately more alive and transparent..
You state that the standard Black gates sound course and grainy but it was anything but this in the da capo that I fitted them to.
Luke
yes for a lot of the values under 100uf i was able to replace with military petp, which are reasonably sized. For 100uf i used 3 of the 22uf version. Tight squeeze but sounded immediately more alive and transparent..
You state that the standard Black gates sound course and grainy but it was anything but this in the da capo that I fitted them to.
Luke
new caps - altered sound
thanks for all your responses guys, i am very confused at the moment and really not sure what to do. my dac will eventually cease to work if i dont change the caps, am i right?
secondly this whole alteration of the sound business with new caps. to what extent is the sound altered? what i mean is, will it still sound like my da capo but with subtle differences? or could the sound be altered to such an extent that it sounds like a completely different bit of kit?
if so, i cant see any advantage in it!?!
i may as well buy a different bit of kit when my da capo dies.
i guess what i am trying to say is that before i go through the trouble and expense of getting the work done i just want to be sure that it is not going to be at the detriment of the qualities that i so love about my da capo:
the warmth
the tonal balance
the musicality
etc
ian
when you talk about alterations in sound for three months or so do you mean that the sound then reverts to what you are used to or more similar to that which existed before? a bit like interconnects or cables requiring a burn in period?
and
luke
you speak very favourably about the sound after changing the caps. i mean, you say that it could be that the original caps may have been on their last legs, so does that mean that the dac sounds very similar to before the change only better?
sorry for the long post and all the questions guys! i guess i just want to know if its a worthwhile venture?!?
thanks for all your responses guys, i am very confused at the moment and really not sure what to do. my dac will eventually cease to work if i dont change the caps, am i right?
secondly this whole alteration of the sound business with new caps. to what extent is the sound altered? what i mean is, will it still sound like my da capo but with subtle differences? or could the sound be altered to such an extent that it sounds like a completely different bit of kit?
if so, i cant see any advantage in it!?!
i may as well buy a different bit of kit when my da capo dies.
i guess what i am trying to say is that before i go through the trouble and expense of getting the work done i just want to be sure that it is not going to be at the detriment of the qualities that i so love about my da capo:
the warmth
the tonal balance
the musicality
etc
ian
when you talk about alterations in sound for three months or so do you mean that the sound then reverts to what you are used to or more similar to that which existed before? a bit like interconnects or cables requiring a burn in period?
and
luke
you speak very favourably about the sound after changing the caps. i mean, you say that it could be that the original caps may have been on their last legs, so does that mean that the dac sounds very similar to before the change only better?
sorry for the long post and all the questions guys! i guess i just want to know if its a worthwhile venture?!?
Re: new caps - altered sound
I've never heard a DaCappo in a critical listening environment but with other DACS and equipment in general:
Maybe lose the warmth with better caps. But gain bass clarity, transient response, information. Treble also may sound quieter, but also gain clarity, transient response, information.
Yes, bit like interconnects or cables requiring a burn in period. Only more so. No bass to start with and harsh veiled treble and mid. Fuller and sweeter and better all around as time goes by.
With Black Gates it's certainly and expensive venture. And may still may not sound as good as the forthcoming new version DaCappo.
I have a Philips 7350 DAC and op amp analogue stage here that I bought in the early '90's. It now has Nichicon KZ / Oscon / black gate supplies, two 500VA transformers, Vishays, silver wire, no copper tracks better digital decoupling and clock. Still sounds 'sucked out' in the mid with a little too much bass. So I guess with that one the character flaw has remained. Same character as the S700 I have that also has the same DAC chip.
On the other had, change the mains lead to a piece of equipment and it can sound like you've changed the whole piece of equipment! in fact sometimes just changing the mains fuse (or at your own risk deleting it) can have a (relatively) huge effect.
I soldered a couple of black gates to a the +5V main PSU cap of a Philips 960 and it changed the whole sound but the basic character remained, ie, not sucked out in the mid, etc.
Personally, if I had a DaCappo, the probable first thing I'd do is bin all the caps and most or all of the PSU. Replace it all with an external PSU with either Nichicon GS4 caps or more likely my black gate / discrete regulator supply and my custom made 500VA transformer as they're redundant at the mo. Depends what step down voltages are required as to whether I'd make further cascaded discrete regulators. Replace the mains supply, delete the fuses, delete as much copper track and possible, replace with silver, maybe replace the whole output stage with the best op-amps and vishay resistors or a discrete output stage and maybe hard wire across those push on edge connectors if they're not deleted. Maybe have to bin the casework and cut up the board.
Sounds extreme, but IMO there's no point in compromise of any kind, finance permitting. All commercial retailed equipment is by cost necessity compromised or severely compromised.
I've done the same to much equipment over 15 years with great results. My stereo listening system is silver wired and Vishayed from source to speaker drive units. No copper tracks. Components wonder soldered to components. Direct coupled 100Amp mains supply with only one fuse in entire HiFi, that being at the dedicated super spur header by the meter. It's not your 'normal' HiFi. It's so revealing that I can hear a resistor change anywhere in the system. The other day on a customers similar set up we were comparing how bad relay contacts were at the output to speaker leads. Could even tell when just the 2nd pair of terminal posts and 50mm of copper link wires were joined in series. Was awful!
So my opinion is probably not the same as most peoples as to what is acceptable and counts a good box of bits (ready made DAC like under discussion here) as I never use them. Always take them apart na djust use the best internal bits.
Apparently so.
I've never heard a DaCappo in a critical listening environment but with other DACS and equipment in general:
Maybe lose the warmth with better caps. But gain bass clarity, transient response, information. Treble also may sound quieter, but also gain clarity, transient response, information.
Yes, bit like interconnects or cables requiring a burn in period. Only more so. No bass to start with and harsh veiled treble and mid. Fuller and sweeter and better all around as time goes by.
With Black Gates it's certainly and expensive venture. And may still may not sound as good as the forthcoming new version DaCappo.
I have a Philips 7350 DAC and op amp analogue stage here that I bought in the early '90's. It now has Nichicon KZ / Oscon / black gate supplies, two 500VA transformers, Vishays, silver wire, no copper tracks better digital decoupling and clock. Still sounds 'sucked out' in the mid with a little too much bass. So I guess with that one the character flaw has remained. Same character as the S700 I have that also has the same DAC chip.
On the other had, change the mains lead to a piece of equipment and it can sound like you've changed the whole piece of equipment! in fact sometimes just changing the mains fuse (or at your own risk deleting it) can have a (relatively) huge effect.
I soldered a couple of black gates to a the +5V main PSU cap of a Philips 960 and it changed the whole sound but the basic character remained, ie, not sucked out in the mid, etc.
Personally, if I had a DaCappo, the probable first thing I'd do is bin all the caps and most or all of the PSU. Replace it all with an external PSU with either Nichicon GS4 caps or more likely my black gate / discrete regulator supply and my custom made 500VA transformer as they're redundant at the mo. Depends what step down voltages are required as to whether I'd make further cascaded discrete regulators. Replace the mains supply, delete the fuses, delete as much copper track and possible, replace with silver, maybe replace the whole output stage with the best op-amps and vishay resistors or a discrete output stage and maybe hard wire across those push on edge connectors if they're not deleted. Maybe have to bin the casework and cut up the board.
Sounds extreme, but IMO there's no point in compromise of any kind, finance permitting. All commercial retailed equipment is by cost necessity compromised or severely compromised.
I've done the same to much equipment over 15 years with great results. My stereo listening system is silver wired and Vishayed from source to speaker drive units. No copper tracks. Components wonder soldered to components. Direct coupled 100Amp mains supply with only one fuse in entire HiFi, that being at the dedicated super spur header by the meter. It's not your 'normal' HiFi. It's so revealing that I can hear a resistor change anywhere in the system. The other day on a customers similar set up we were comparing how bad relay contacts were at the output to speaker leads. Could even tell when just the 2nd pair of terminal posts and 50mm of copper link wires were joined in series. Was awful!
So my opinion is probably not the same as most peoples as to what is acceptable and counts a good box of bits (ready made DAC like under discussion here) as I never use them. Always take them apart na djust use the best internal bits.
Or if you are lucky....
Find a DC PSU Like me....
As IanAS says, I always find the sound traits of a unit are mainly down to unit design. The Da-Capo got it right. Changes in caps to better components can affect the sound in diffrent ways but I havn't yet found it to change the overall traits of a unit just change the ballance slightly... And in a lot of cases increase the transparency. The better the unit to start with though the changes seem to be less as there was less compromise to start with.
In the Da-capo some may change more than others depends on the state of the original caps.
Would really like to hear what JW found the main changes were to the units sound when he changed them.
John
Find a DC PSU Like me....
As IanAS says, I always find the sound traits of a unit are mainly down to unit design. The Da-Capo got it right. Changes in caps to better components can affect the sound in diffrent ways but I havn't yet found it to change the overall traits of a unit just change the ballance slightly... And in a lot of cases increase the transparency. The better the unit to start with though the changes seem to be less as there was less compromise to start with.
In the Da-capo some may change more than others depends on the state of the original caps.
Would really like to hear what JW found the main changes were to the units sound when he changed them.
John
Re: Re: new caps - altered sound
Above applies to normal caps., BG's usually give loads of bass straight away.
Does sound like a lot of work though!
If I can find the money I'd be more interested in John's new versions. He's said that he considered all the upgrades and instead started from scratch.
That would only do for the front speakers though. I'd like a modular system of mono DACs fed from a multichannel digital receiver / processor.
Somehow sending digital to the four corners (plus centre / sub / etc if used) where each mono DAC lay joined to it's own mono power amplifier.
All of John W's suggested new level of quality but not at £800 per DAC obviously. Just a low cost per quality DAC in a cheap case that is hidden from view anyway. I could use each mono block power amps quality PSU to send ±V to the DAC. Otherwise each DAC would need it's own quality PSU / mains supply pushing up the cost quite a lot.
Above applies to normal caps., BG's usually give loads of bass straight away.
Does sound like a lot of work though!
If I can find the money I'd be more interested in John's new versions. He's said that he considered all the upgrades and instead started from scratch.
That would only do for the front speakers though. I'd like a modular system of mono DACs fed from a multichannel digital receiver / processor.
Somehow sending digital to the four corners (plus centre / sub / etc if used) where each mono DAC lay joined to it's own mono power amplifier.
All of John W's suggested new level of quality but not at £800 per DAC obviously. Just a low cost per quality DAC in a cheap case that is hidden from view anyway. I could use each mono block power amps quality PSU to send ±V to the DAC. Otherwise each DAC would need it's own quality PSU / mains supply pushing up the cost quite a lot.
Hi Rasp,
I think i would echo a lot of what Ian is saying.
If you want to play it safe though, and you want to ensure you maintain most of what is good about the Da capo then the cerafines should be great. In my experience they do not detract from the original sound and more often than not improve upon it - slightly more dynamic, more detail, more presence, better top and bottom end extension and above all slightly more refinement to the sound. Now remember I used a mixture of cerafines and black gates but predominantly cerafine in my Da Capo. As far as i could see I was getting a LOT LOT more of what the Dacapo had, with nothing missing. I personally believe the caps improved the sound due to their superior quality, but the degree of improvement was so great that I started to wonder about the longevity of the original caps having come to and end. Black gates are a slightly different proposition. in my experience they can sometimes change the sound of the original unit to its detriment.
Jadis use what are considered average quality caps in their units, yet the synergy with the whole circuit is such that 'recognised quality caps' more often than not can detrimentally affect the sound, for more info please read this thread i started.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118979&highlight=
It highlights a fair bit about my experiences with changing various caps in this power amplifier, and the associated complications.
The point I am trying to make, is that John W may well have synergistically mated his choice of cap and they may be the best ones after all. To test this theory I would really need to get hold of new original caps.
Luke
I think i would echo a lot of what Ian is saying.
If you want to play it safe though, and you want to ensure you maintain most of what is good about the Da capo then the cerafines should be great. In my experience they do not detract from the original sound and more often than not improve upon it - slightly more dynamic, more detail, more presence, better top and bottom end extension and above all slightly more refinement to the sound. Now remember I used a mixture of cerafines and black gates but predominantly cerafine in my Da Capo. As far as i could see I was getting a LOT LOT more of what the Dacapo had, with nothing missing. I personally believe the caps improved the sound due to their superior quality, but the degree of improvement was so great that I started to wonder about the longevity of the original caps having come to and end. Black gates are a slightly different proposition. in my experience they can sometimes change the sound of the original unit to its detriment.
Jadis use what are considered average quality caps in their units, yet the synergy with the whole circuit is such that 'recognised quality caps' more often than not can detrimentally affect the sound, for more info please read this thread i started.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118979&highlight=
It highlights a fair bit about my experiences with changing various caps in this power amplifier, and the associated complications.
The point I am trying to make, is that John W may well have synergistically mated his choice of cap and they may be the best ones after all. To test this theory I would really need to get hold of new original caps.
Luke
cerafines
thanks everyone for your advice!
luke
i think i might take your advice and go for some cerafines. as i am not very technically minded and will have to get someone to do the work for me would it be too much to ask if you could tell me exactly what caps i need and the number of each type etc. also any advice on a good supplier would be greatly apreciated.
thanks for your help
that goes for everyone else too!
frank
thanks everyone for your advice!
luke
i think i might take your advice and go for some cerafines. as i am not very technically minded and will have to get someone to do the work for me would it be too much to ask if you could tell me exactly what caps i need and the number of each type etc. also any advice on a good supplier would be greatly apreciated.
thanks for your help
that goes for everyone else too!
frank
Re: cerafines
Take off the lid and see that the capacitor value and voltage are written down the side of each one.
I'll say one thing about BG's, I'll never (until they run out of stock) use anything else (best grade non polarised) in an amplifiers feedback position. I already had Cerafine in one amp but changing to BG was better by a very long way in every way, like the amps quality just doubled. In another amp it had Naiti Non Polar (which usually sound better that back to back Elna Silmics as output DC blockers), the BG gave more info on guitar strings, cymbals, a lot more bass slam and generally punchy more realistic rendition with better separation of everything.
I just remembered a HiFiNews article about upgrading the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 2. They used Oscons all over the place in there.
Just took the lid off the Cambridge Audio S700, Oscons all over the analogue stage and for the post reg decoupling.
Plus, it has an HDCD filter It's marked 1994. Does that make it too old and not the sought after type mentioned in this thread?
Take off the lid and see that the capacitor value and voltage are written down the side of each one.
I'll say one thing about BG's, I'll never (until they run out of stock) use anything else (best grade non polarised) in an amplifiers feedback position. I already had Cerafine in one amp but changing to BG was better by a very long way in every way, like the amps quality just doubled. In another amp it had Naiti Non Polar (which usually sound better that back to back Elna Silmics as output DC blockers), the BG gave more info on guitar strings, cymbals, a lot more bass slam and generally punchy more realistic rendition with better separation of everything.
I just remembered a HiFiNews article about upgrading the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 2. They used Oscons all over the place in there.
Just took the lid off the Cambridge Audio S700, Oscons all over the analogue stage and for the post reg decoupling.
Plus, it has an HDCD filter
It's marked 1994. Does that make it too old and not the sought after type mentioned in this thread?Re: cerafines
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1379443#post1379443
There appear to be 18 caps of 2200u @ 25V. With holes for another 4 caps.
Luke, which did you use Cerafines for and which were BG's and what values?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1379443#post1379443
There appear to be 18 caps of 2200u @ 25V. With holes for another 4 caps.
Luke, which did you use Cerafines for and which were BG's and what values?
I presume that just having the HDCD chip won't do and the whole different module is needed?